Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[Remember]

Orthodox Christian wrote:

Rememberance wrote:
Quote:
They accuse others of worshipping people because that is exactly what they do when they stand in the mirror. 'My reading of the bible is more illumined than my brother- the Holy Spirit prefers me' they say to themselves.


I do hope you will be adding something more constructive than these idle words to the discussion. Scripture would be wonderful:

[quote:842c9] See what I mean? You accuse somone else of worshipping something other than God, then squeal when your own idolatry is pointed out. Scripture? Check this, homie:

[/quote:842c9]


(Been though this with scriptural references already)

As my signature says:

"May God's will be done"

 

[Remember]

Rememberance wrote:

*L* cute :

Weren't those wonderful verses? God has so many great things for us to know. They edify and warn and comfort. He's a wonderful God.

 

[Solo]

All these clowns with bibles can't figure out who the verses were addressed to. They all think they are the prophets of God sent out to correct everyone else. Note that the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel, and Paul told Timothy to correct in his role as Apostle and Bishop.

But by all means, bring your corrections, and we shall correct them, since we're now all apostles, cuz all saints are equal.

I think that I will listen to the clowns with Bibles as opposed to the clown without one, since the clown without one thinks the Holy Spirit isn't capable to teach individuals that have Bibles, and does not understand the spiritual gift of prophesy.

Let's hear it for those clowns with Bibles!!! :smt023

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Orthodox Christian said

So sez you, but you're bible worshipper, so I take it with a big rock of salt.

Oh how dare I say you're a bible worshipper, right? Even as you insist others worship what they do not in fact worship. Pointless, ain't it?

Interesting. You don't search the scriptures to know God's word? to know the gospel of Christ? That is what is in the Bible.

You miss the point of my posting, just as you miss the point of Christ's words. He- nor I-diminished the importance of scripture. However, they are not Him. They point to Him, not vice versa.

You can call me what you want, right or wrong. Wouldn't you rather be right?

I do not kneel down, bow to and pray to the Bible. Nope, I don't worship the Bible. I seek knowledge to know God.

So you say. Based upon your statements and approach, I say you worship the bible. It doesn't matter how you explain it, I'm absolutely certain that you worship the bible.

This is exactly what we have faced regarding the veneration of Mary, who was and is an image of the Living God, a light of the Light, a living letter. (Those are all scriptural references- see if you can find them in your idol).

The Bible contains the Word of God so I do:

John 5:39

39 Search the scriptures ; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Want to join me? :D

By all means.
I read scripture every single day. The first time I read the bible through I was 8 years of age. I've read it through cover to cover every year since 1985. I read it in Greek and English. I have entire epistles committed to memory, as well as all of Psalms 1-24 and the songs of ascents. Typically, if I hear the first few words of a scripture in the KJV, I can finish the quote and tell you where it is from (book and chapter, not necessarily verses). I love the scriptures, because they point to Him.

Let me tell you a few things about scripture: First, the early Church used a lectionary approach to scripture: that is to say, they tied together epistle and gospel to illustrate points of doctrine and living. This business of using a verse or two to prove a novel doctrine was the practice of heretics, not the Church. The Church was 'sola scriptura' in the sense that everything was proved by scripture, but not in the sense that anything you find in the bible can be used to make up new doctrine.
Second, you will find people quoting opposing scriptures at each other to support opposing doctrines. This is madness. Scripture is not in contradiction: rather, wisdom is required to discern between the extremes posed by the two scriptures. Example: we are saved by faith (Paul) vs Abraham was saved by his work (James). Paul and James are in harmony, and that harmony is found in understanding, as the Church does, what Paul meant by salvation is slightly disparate from what James meant. That is a lesson for another time.
Third, consistent theology does not embrace a strict interpretation on the command against idolatry on one hand and a lax interpretation of the Sabbath on the other. Evangelicals are horrible Judaizers in regard to images, yet slovenly antinomians when it comes to the regulations regarding fasting and Sabbath.

So, please, by all means, wet your thumb, and we'll search the scriptures. Fasten your seat belt, and be prepared to give a full accounting.
James

 

[Remember]

Orthodox Christian wrote:

[quote:25f4f] Rememberance wrote:
You can call me what you want, right or wrong. Wouldn't you rather be right?

I do not kneel down, bow to and pray to the Bible. Nope, I don't worship the Bible. I seek knowledge to know God.

So you say. Based upon your statements and approach, I say you worship the bible. It doesn't matter how you explain it, I'm absolutely certain that you worship the bible.

This is exactly what we have faced regarding the veneration of Mary, who was and is an image of the Living God, a light of the Light, a living letter. (Those are all scriptural references- see if you can find them in your idol). [/quote:25f4f]

Sorry. Realized an understanding of you now. The Word of God has rebuked a belief so you attack the messenger instead of embracing the message. Not a problem.

You are in my prayers, as before.

If you wish to post those passages you reference, please, do so.

 

[thessalonian]

Remember,

What it all boils down to is that there is no one else to kneel to, to bow down to, to pray to other than God. Doing this (kneeling, bowing, praying) to anyone or anything or to the statue of anyone or anything is nothing more than idolatry and of absolutely no use.

Why do you go beyond what is written and use it as a club to put down others. Find me where it says that all bowing down/kneeling is worship? The elders bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant in Josh 7 so were they worshipping the Ark? You would have condemed their behavior. GOD through Issac prophesied that nations would bow down before Jacob? Was God saying that nations would worship him? Was Solomon worshipping Bethsheeba when he bowed down before her? I don't see any indication of it at all. You go beyond what is written.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Orthodox Christian wrote:

[quote:7b80b] Rememberance wrote:
You can call me what you want, right or wrong. Wouldn't you rather be right?

I do not kneel down, bow to and pray to the Bible. Nope, I don't worship the Bible. I seek knowledge to know God.

So you say. Based upon your statements and approach, I say you worship the bible. It doesn't matter how you explain it, I'm absolutely certain that you worship the bible.

This is exactly what we have faced regarding the veneration of Mary, who was and is an image of the Living God, a light of the Light, a living letter. (Those are all scriptural references- see if you can find them in your idol).

Sorry. Realized an understanding of you now. The Word of God has rebuked a belief so you attack the messenger instead of embracing the message. Not a problem. [/quote:7b80b]
So you can insist someone is worshipping something when they're not, and it's the message of God, but when you are on the other end of it it's a personal attack. You don't see the hypocrisy in that?

You are in my prayers, as before.

Why is that? You looking for me to get saved or something? If you pray for me, please don't pray any of that Evangelical witchcraft telling God what I need. A simple "Lord have mercy on that sinner James" will do. Thanks.

If you wish to post those passages you reference, please, do so.

Image of the Living God
Genesis 1:26
Hebrews 1:3
Romans 8:29
1 corinthians 15:49
2 Corinthians 3:18
Colosians 3:9-10

light of the Light
Matthew 5:14-16
John 5:33-35
Ephesians 5:8
1 thess 5:5

Living epistles
2 Corinthians 3:2-6

Enjoy.

 

[Heidi]

How is bowing down to a statue and praying to it not worshipping that person? If it isn't, then why do it? Why not give God the credit for people's good deeds instead of to the person himself/herself? How again is that not idol-worshipping? How is that not taking the focus off of God for his creations? :o

And that is specifically why the bible warns us not to erect statues of men and women. But not only to you scoff at the bible for this, Orthodox, you continue to do the very thing it says not to do. This rebellion can never be justified.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

How is bowing down to a statue and praying to it not worshipping that person? If it isn't, then why do it? Why not give God the credit for people's good deeds instead of to the person himself/herself?

That's all been explained to you at length before. That you say "pray to" and "worship" reveals a predisposition of yours.

How again is that not idol-worshipping? How is that not taking the focus off of God for his creations? :o

You say "worship that person" then ask how "that is not idol-worshipping." This is a loaded question, kind of like "how long has it been since you stopped beating your wife" or the like.

And that is specifically why the bible warns us not to erect statues of men and women. But not only to you scoff at the bible for this,

No, I scoff at your reading of the bible, in which you press the second commandment and ignore the fourth. You are a half-Judaizer.

Orthodox, you continue to do the very thing it says not to do. This rebellion can never be justified.

No, I do the very thing YOU say not to do, but you are in no position to teach. Are you a literalist, Heidi? If so, why are you, a woman, trying to teach or have authority over me?
Why do you stamp your feet regarding certain parts of the Mosaic covenant, and ignore the others?

 

[Heidi]

Those are some of the biggest evasions you've had yet, Orthodox. Again, there is no excuse for bowing down to statues of people when the bible specifically forbids it. Sorry, but you are not God. The Word is.

 

[Orthodoxy]

To all the heterodox that insist asking Mary and the Saints for their prayers is worshipping them. To this you comdemn Paul and Jesus.

John 17:9, I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus prays "for them which thou hast given me". Jesus is breaking the heterodox witches command not to pray for leaders of the Church.

John 17:20, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jesus prays for the Church " those that "believe on Me". Jesus is breaking the heterodox command not to pray for one another.

Acts 12:15, Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

The Church is condemned by the heterodox witchcraft faith for unceasing prayer for Peter.

Romans 1:9, For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Paul is condemned for praying for others by the heterodox witches.

Romans 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Paul condemned by the heterodox witches for praying for all Israel.

Romans 15:30, Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Paul condemned by the heterodox witches for asking others to join him in prayer.

2 Corinthians 1:11, Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Paul is thanking the Church for their prayers. Paul the condemned.

Ephesians 1:16, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

Paul mentioning people in his prayer. Paul the condemned.

Philippians 1:4, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

Paul the condemned making prayers for others. Shame on Paul for breaking the pharisitical laws of the heterodox.

Philippians 1:19, For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

HUH? Prayers of others "shall turn to my salvation" says Paul? Gasp! Prayer can lead to a mans salvation! Paul here does not say "I am saved" but through the prayers of other he MIGHT be saved!

1 Thessalonians 1:2, We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

Paul that unsaved sinner praying again for others in violation of the heterodox laws of the pharisee.

1 Timothy 2:1, I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Paul wants the Church to pray for ALL MEN? Paul simply does not understand the heterodox witchcraft that claims no prayers for anyone!

2 Timothy 1:3, I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;

Paul really will never be a good heterodox witch praying for all these people.

James 5:15, And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

The prayers of the faithful can save the sick and forgive sins? BLAPHEMY JAMES brother of Jesus! Have you lost your unsaved mind! No wonder James is shunned in the heterodox witchcraft faith!

James 5:15, Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Confess your sins to one another?! Pray for one another? James must be MAD! Prayer of others can heal? The "fervent prayer of a righteous man" is condemned by the witches of the heterodox faith. James you are not of God according to the "true" heterodox christians.

Revelation 5:8, And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Which saints? Only heterodox saints on the earth? Ahh yes the entire creation is condemned by the heterodox witches for the saints in heaven prayers!

Revelation 8:3, And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

All the saints or only the heterodox on the earth? All doesnt mean all now I must assume, right witches?

Revelation 8:4, And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Dont these saints know they are dead? How can these dead saints pray for anything or anyone? Ahh yes the Kingdom of God is a dead Kingdom with only Jesus and Dad in control. Maybe these prayers are not in the eternal and timeless Kingdom of God but in the limited and time controlled Kingdom of the pharisitical witches in the heterodox "faith".

Yes now even God is condemned for allowing dead saints in heaven to prayer for one another.

You heterodox witches will pray for "the Church"? Only if you condemn yourselves!

You all would do well to break open your idols and look up the word "pray".

Unworthy Servant,

Orthodoxy

 

[Heidi]

You of course, still don't understand the difference between praying to someone and praying for them. So before you read the bible again, I suggest you consult a dictionary. Only then can you even think about gaining credibility. ;-)

 

[Orthodoxy]

You of course, still don't understand the difference between praying to someone and praying for them. So before you read the bible again, I suggest you consult a dictionary. Only then can you even think about gaining credibility. ;-)

I see. Asking someone to pray for you is praying to them to pray for you.

So if you ask yer mom to pray for you then you are praying to her?

Why if I ask Mary the mother of the Christian race to pray for me am I praying to her? Because she is "dead" and your holy mom is not?

Now you will demand Mary is not the mother of the Christian faith. Jesus is the "first born of the breathen" and Mary is His mother. If I am the "brother" of Jesus then Mary is my mother in the Christian faith. I can ask my mother to pray from me just as you ask your mommy to pray for you. You have no mother in Christ thus you are an orphan. I keep the words of Jesus and visit orphans and widows like your self. You have no mother and no husband to head over you. Orphan.

It appears you are the one that cannot discern the differance between asking for prayer and praying for prayer.

God is the God of the living not the dead as the heterodox world would have us believe.

Save your condensending remarks for someone as ignorant as your self.

Orthodoxy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Why would one ask Mary to pray or them anyway? Isn't Jesus good enough for something? :o

Good grief!

 

[thessalonian]

Why would one ask Mary to pray or them anyway? Isn't Jesus good enough for something? :o

Good grief!

Heb 13
18: Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.
I guess Paul must not have thought Jesus was good enough either because he asked others to pray for him.


Why do we ask other to pray for us? Because that is what God wants us to do. He likes to do his will through men and so recognizing others who have great faith and asking them to pray for us is a virtue. The prayers of the righteous avail much and there are none more righteous than those in heaven.

James 5
16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

I know, you will say they cannot hear us. Chapter/verse please. And while you are at it explain how there is great rejoicing in heaven over one repentant sinner and how the Apostles can rightly judge the nation of Israel without hearing what is going on.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. 19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:18-21

1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is only one mediator between men and God, and that one is Jesus Christ.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5

Also Jesus lives forever to intercede for us to God the Father. He is not a sinful man in the position of offering sacrifices daily to redeem us to God, for he himself is the one and only sacrifice that was offered once for our salvation, and he continues to intercede.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Hebrews 7:22-28

Jesus tells us in the gospel of John that whatever we ask in Jesus name will be done, that God will be glorified by the Son.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:12-14

If Jesus is our mediator, who intercedes for us, and who will give whatever we ask in His name; why would we even want to pray to a believer who has died and awaits the resurrection?

James writes that prayer is important for those afflicted and those that are sick. He writes that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much. James does not teach that one should pray to the dead; no, he instead recognizes that believers pray to God.

He also writes that believers should confess their faults to one another, and to pray for one another.

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:13-20

Paul writes that believers should not care (worry) for nothing, but instead pray with thanksgiving to God for all requests. Then the peace of God shall keep believers hearts and minds through Jesus Christ.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7

 

[thessalonian]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

You keep saying those in heave are dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.". The context is pointless. I didn't say that it explicitly said those in heaven pray for us. MM said "good grief" as to why ask Mary to pray for us. Well, those in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the body (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12). Otherwise they have been separated from the body and that ain't good. Rev 5 and 8 show that they do add their prayers to ours. "mingled incense which is the prayers of the saints".

God bless

 

[Solo]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

You keep saying those in heave are dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.". The context is pointless. I didn't say that it explicitly said those in heaven pray for us. MM said "good grief" as to why ask Mary to pray for us. Well, those in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the body (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12). Otherwise they have been separated from the body and that ain't good. Rev 5 and 8 show that they do add their prayers to ours. "mingled incense which is the prayers of the saints".

God bless

Those in heaven that you pray to have died and await the resurrection of their new bodies to be joined again with their spirits. The verses of scripture that I posted designate that Jesus is the ONLY mediator that we have between us and God. If the Bible is correct, why would any man pray to anyone else other than Jesus, God?

 

[thessalonian]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

You keep saying those in heave are dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.". The context is pointless. I didn't say that it explicitly said those in heaven pray for us. MM said "good grief" as to why ask Mary to pray for us. Well, those in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the body (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12). Otherwise they have been separated from the body and that ain't good. Rev 5 and 8 show that they do add their prayers to ours. "mingled incense which is the prayers of the saints".

God bless

Those in heaven that you pray to have died and await the resurrection of their new bodies to be joined again with their spirits. The verses of scripture that I posted designate that Jesus is the ONLY mediator that we have between us and God. If the Bible is correct, why would any man pray to anyone else other than Jesus, God?

Where did I say those in heaven were meditors. This is a straw man leveled by Protestants who don't know what they are talking about with regard to Catholicism. They are intercessors. Don't twist them back to meditors. That is not what is taught. Now it seems you agree that their souls are in heaven. Their soul is their conscious do you not agree or do you hold to soul sleep. So what is it that prevents their soul from prayer? Why can they not interceed for their loved ones on earth? The scriptures nowhere say this. You equate prayer to worship. This is sometimes true but not always for prayer means to ask. Simply asking another to pray for us is not worship.

Blessings

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Thess - Paul wasn't dead...Jesus is also not dead. The people who you are praying to are dead. They are asleep in Jesus awaiting for his return.