Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[thessalonian]

Thess - Paul wasn't dead...Jesus is also not dead. The people who you are praying to are dead. They are asleep in Jesus awaiting for his return.

I do hope those who believe in soul sleep don't end up eternally dead. It's false. Error does not contribute to and actually detracts from salvation so such doctrines as soul sleep are not beneficial.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

It's what the bible says Thess...I believe what the bible says. The bible says they sleep and to sorrow not and I believe it.

 

[Solo]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

You keep saying those in heave are dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.". The context is pointless. I didn't say that it explicitly said those in heaven pray for us. MM said "good grief" as to why ask Mary to pray for us. Well, those in heaven are our brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the body (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12). Otherwise they have been separated from the body and that ain't good. Rev 5 and 8 show that they do add their prayers to ours. "mingled incense which is the prayers of the saints".

God bless

Those in heaven that you pray to have died and await the resurrection of their new bodies to be joined again with their spirits. The verses of scripture that I posted designate that Jesus is the ONLY mediator that we have between us and God. If the Bible is correct, why would any man pray to anyone else other than Jesus, God?

Where did I say those in heaven were meditors. This is a straw man leveled by Protestants who don't know what they are talking about with regard to Catholicism. They are intercessors. Don't twist them back to meditors. That is not what is taught. Now it seems you agree that their souls are in heaven. Their soul is their conscious do you not agree or do you hold to soul sleep. So what is it that prevents their soul from prayer? Why can they not interceed for their loved ones on earth? The scriptures nowhere say this. You equate prayer to worship. This is sometimes true but not always for prayer means to ask. Simply asking another to pray for us is not worship.

Blessings

It is good to have those of the body of Jesus Christ pray for those of the body, but I see no where in the scriptures where believers prayed to those that have died.

Jesus is the only one that will mediate requests between man and God. Those that have died since Jesus' ascension are awaiting the resurrection where their bodies will be raised from the dead.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57

I believe the Bible teaches that those that have died are awaiting the resurrection. I believe the souls of those that have passed on are in a state of rest until Jesus returns.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 6:9-11

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The bible is extremely clear on this fact. That when we die, we go to sleep and await the return of Christ.

 

[Orthodoxy]

The bible is extremely clear on this fact. That when we die, we go to sleep and await the return of Christ.

Maybe you read a different bible while worshipping a different Jesus. The Church never taught "soul sleep" ever. That is a man made doctrine. The body sleeps not the soul. The soul is very much aware of its final destination after death of the body. I have give you a number of scripture that you must ignore to believe this man made theology.

Example:

2 Corinthians 5:4-9, We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

Philippians 1:23, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Hebrews 12:22-24, But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY and CHURCH OF THE FIRST BORN,

Three scripture witnesses, the Church as a witness and the Holy Spirit which guides the Church as a witness. Now who are we to believe?

You have every right to be wrong. You have every right to remain in your ignorance and arrogance. Carry on.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. 19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:18-21

1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is only one mediator between men and God, and that one is Jesus Christ.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5

Also Jesus lives forever to intercede for us to God the Father. He is not a sinful man in the position of offering sacrifices daily to redeem us to God, for he himself is the one and only sacrifice that was offered once for our salvation, and he continues to intercede.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Hebrews 7:22-28

Jesus tells us in the gospel of John that whatever we ask in Jesus name will be done, that God will be glorified by the Son.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:12-14

If Jesus is our mediator, who intercedes for us, and who will give whatever we ask in His name; why would we even want to pray to a believer who has died and awaits the resurrection?

James writes that prayer is important for those afflicted and those that are sick. He writes that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much. James does not teach that one should pray to the dead; no, he instead recognizes that believers pray to God.

He also writes that believers should confess their faults to one another, and to pray for one another.

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:13-20

Paul writes that believers should not care (worry) for nothing, but instead pray with thanksgiving to God for all requests. Then the peace of God shall keep believers hearts and minds through Jesus Christ.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7

Thus the differance between true Christianity and the false imposter version of christianity. The true Church believes God is the God of the living. The imposter believes God is the God of the dead. The true Church believes the "invisible Church" in Heaven is fully alive, even more so that sinners on the earth still struggling with the passions while the imposter believes believes the "saints" in the "invisible Church" are dead. The true Church believes death was devoured by life at the resurrection where as the false church believes Jesus died in vain to be raised in vain.

and so it is. The line is clearly drawn. Now a choice is to be made. Life or death.

I, with my orthodox breathen, choose life. We know who symbolizes death.

Orthodoxy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Orthodoxy - why don't you allow the bible to speak for itself! It's pretty clear!

 

[Solo]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. 19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:18-21

1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is only one mediator between men and God, and that one is Jesus Christ.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5

Also Jesus lives forever to intercede for us to God the Father. He is not a sinful man in the position of offering sacrifices daily to redeem us to God, for he himself is the one and only sacrifice that was offered once for our salvation, and he continues to intercede.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Hebrews 7:22-28

Jesus tells us in the gospel of John that whatever we ask in Jesus name will be done, that God will be glorified by the Son.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:12-14

If Jesus is our mediator, who intercedes for us, and who will give whatever we ask in His name; why would we even want to pray to a believer who has died and awaits the resurrection?

James writes that prayer is important for those afflicted and those that are sick. He writes that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much. James does not teach that one should pray to the dead; no, he instead recognizes that believers pray to God.

He also writes that believers should confess their faults to one another, and to pray for one another.

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:13-20

Paul writes that believers should not care (worry) for nothing, but instead pray with thanksgiving to God for all requests. Then the peace of God shall keep believers hearts and minds through Jesus Christ.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7

Thus the differance between true Christianity and the false imposter version of christianity. The true Church believes God is the God of the living. The imposter believes God is the God of the dead. The true Church believes the "invisible Church" in Heaven is fully alive, even more so that sinners on the earth still struggling with the passions while the imposter believes believes the "saints" in the "invisible Church" are dead. The true Church believes death was devoured by life at the resurrection where as the false church believes Jesus died in vain to be raised in vain.

and so it is. The line is clearly drawn. Now a choice is to be made. Life or death.

I, with my orthodox breathen, choose life. We know who symbolizes death.

Orthodoxy

The true Church consists of those that are born of the Spirit of God, and it is the Holy Spirit of God that inspired the scriptures and interprets the scriptures. Until you awake from your dream that orthodoxy is the way, the truth, and the life, you will be unable to see Jesus Christ as the way, the truth, and the life.

All that I have ever read from your posts is that you worship orthodox instead of God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Spirit. Perhaps you should pray for understanding of scripture before you debate issues that you lack understanding about.

You are consistant in your inability to quote scripture to back up your theology though.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. 19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:18-21

1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is only one mediator between men and God, and that one is Jesus Christ.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5

Also Jesus lives forever to intercede for us to God the Father. He is not a sinful man in the position of offering sacrifices daily to redeem us to God, for he himself is the one and only sacrifice that was offered once for our salvation, and he continues to intercede.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Hebrews 7:22-28

Jesus tells us in the gospel of John that whatever we ask in Jesus name will be done, that God will be glorified by the Son.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:12-14

If Jesus is our mediator, who intercedes for us, and who will give whatever we ask in His name; why would we even want to pray to a believer who has died and awaits the resurrection?

James writes that prayer is important for those afflicted and those that are sick. He writes that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much. James does not teach that one should pray to the dead; no, he instead recognizes that believers pray to God.

He also writes that believers should confess their faults to one another, and to pray for one another.

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:13-20

Paul writes that believers should not care (worry) for nothing, but instead pray with thanksgiving to God for all requests. Then the peace of God shall keep believers hearts and minds through Jesus Christ.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7

Thus the differance between true Christianity and the false imposter version of christianity. The true Church believes God is the God of the living. The imposter believes God is the God of the dead. The true Church believes the "invisible Church" in Heaven is fully alive, even more so that sinners on the earth still struggling with the passions while the imposter believes believes the "saints" in the "invisible Church" are dead. The true Church believes death was devoured by life at the resurrection where as the false church believes Jesus died in vain to be raised in vain.

and so it is. The line is clearly drawn. Now a choice is to be made. Life or death.

I, with my orthodox breathen, choose life. We know who symbolizes death.

Orthodoxy

The true Church consists of those that are born of the Spirit of God, and it is the Holy Spirit of God that inspired the scriptures and interprets the scriptures.

This is the fallacy that some Protestants (not all) promote as truth: that they hear directly from the Spirit and read the bible without influebnce of culture, tradition, time, life experience, and so on. Even the Apostles who walked with Christ took a very long time with much direct teaching from the Son of God to overcome their expectations and biases regarding Messiah.

Until you awake from your dream that orthodoxy is the way, the truth, and the life, you will be unable to see Jesus Christ as the way, the truth, and the life.

Post proof that Orthodoxy, myself, or anyone else ever said those words.
You cannot, for in typical fashion, you make a ridiculous statement and then argue against as if one of us had said it.
The Orthodox Church teaches truthfully and faithfully He who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

All that I have ever read from your posts is that you worship orthodox instead of God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Spirit. Perhaps you should pray for understanding of scripture before you debate issues that you lack understanding about.

Why do you obfuscate in this manner? Are you so afraid to debate the facts?

You are consistant in your inability to quote scripture to back up your theology though.

Poppycock. "God is the God of the living and not the dead" is not only scripture, it is the words of Christ- gospel. "death swallowed up in death" is scripture. Earlier, Orthodoxy laid out several key scriptures which you have not dealt with at all.

Some of you (note I said some) Protestants are so poorly read in scripture that, unless the verse comes with numbers attached, you cannot recognize it. Thusly, you regurgitate chunks and verses, undigested, and say 'look what I threw up."

When you have eaten the scroll, and digested it, you will find it sour to your stomach. Scripture does not please the flesh. When you have fully digested it, it will be woven through your commentary like a thread through pearls.

You will get 4 extra credit points if you can find the 4 scriptures that I have woven through that last sentence. Likewise, when I read Orthodoxy's last post, I see the scripture woven through.

It is demonstrably true that the carnal man does not perceive the things of the Spirit.

 

[thessalonian]

The bible is extremely clear on this fact. That when we die, we go to sleep and await the return of Christ.

Man has no consciousness when he dies? Doesn't sound like it from the story of Lazurus and the rich man. The scriptures tell us we are absent from the body, present from the Lord.

Do the scriptures not say "absent from the body, present with the Lord"?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Was the good their not really in paradise on that day? Lot's more.

Our bodies rest but our souls are with him. We do have rest from the trials of this life but soul sleep is false theology.

 

[thessalonian]

Orthodoxy - why don't you allow the bible to speak for itself! It's pretty clear!

You think what's rattling around inside of your head is what the Bible teaches that is clear. So do the Mormons and JW's. The majority of Protestants reject it for they at least see the lie of soul sleep for what it is. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist by any chance?

My mother in law when she really wants to control us says "the Lord told me that you should do X". Needless to say I am a skeptic when people llike you and Solo tell me that what you are preaching is straight from the Lord. Especially when your logic is amiss.

Blessings

 

[Solo]

The whole context shows that the author of Hebrews is not asking the dead to pray for them, but instead those believing Hebrews that he can be restored to them sooner.

18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. 19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner. 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:18-21

1 Timothy 2:5 states that there is only one mediator between men and God, and that one is Jesus Christ.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5

Also Jesus lives forever to intercede for us to God the Father. He is not a sinful man in the position of offering sacrifices daily to redeem us to God, for he himself is the one and only sacrifice that was offered once for our salvation, and he continues to intercede.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Hebrews 7:22-28

Jesus tells us in the gospel of John that whatever we ask in Jesus name will be done, that God will be glorified by the Son.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:12-14

If Jesus is our mediator, who intercedes for us, and who will give whatever we ask in His name; why would we even want to pray to a believer who has died and awaits the resurrection?

James writes that prayer is important for those afflicted and those that are sick. He writes that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much. James does not teach that one should pray to the dead; no, he instead recognizes that believers pray to God.

He also writes that believers should confess their faults to one another, and to pray for one another.

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. 17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:13-20

Paul writes that believers should not care (worry) for nothing, but instead pray with thanksgiving to God for all requests. Then the peace of God shall keep believers hearts and minds through Jesus Christ.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:6-7

Thus the differance between true Christianity and the false imposter version of christianity. The true Church believes God is the God of the living. The imposter believes God is the God of the dead. The true Church believes the "invisible Church" in Heaven is fully alive, even more so that sinners on the earth still struggling with the passions while the imposter believes believes the "saints" in the "invisible Church" are dead. The true Church believes death was devoured by life at the resurrection where as the false church believes Jesus died in vain to be raised in vain.

and so it is. The line is clearly drawn. Now a choice is to be made. Life or death.

I, with my orthodox breathen, choose life. We know who symbolizes death.

Orthodoxy

The true Church consists of those that are born of the Spirit of God, and it is the Holy Spirit of God that inspired the scriptures and interprets the scriptures.

This is the fallacy that some Protestants (not all) promote as truth: that they hear directly from the Spirit and read the bible without influebnce of culture, tradition, time, life experience, and so on. Even the Apostles who walked with Christ took a very long time with much direct teaching from the Son of God to overcome their expectations and biases regarding Messiah.

Until you awake from your dream that orthodoxy is the way, the truth, and the life, you will be unable to see Jesus Christ as the way, the truth, and the life.

Post proof that Orthodoxy, myself, or anyone else ever said those words.
You cannot, for in typical fashion, you make a ridiculous statement and then argue against as if one of us had said it.
The Orthodox Church teaches truthfully and faithfully He who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

All that I have ever read from your posts is that you worship orthodox instead of God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Spirit. Perhaps you should pray for understanding of scripture before you debate issues that you lack understanding about.

Why do you obfuscate in this manner? Are you so afraid to debate the facts?

You are consistant in your inability to quote scripture to back up your theology though.

Poppycock. "God is the God of the living and not the dead" is not only scripture, it is the words of Christ- gospel. "death swallowed up in death" is scripture. Earlier, Orthodoxy laid out several key scriptures which you have not dealt with at all.

Some of you (note I said some) Protestants are so poorly read in scripture that, unless the verse comes with numbers attached, you cannot recognize it. Thusly, you regurgitate chunks and verses, undigested, and say 'look what I threw up."

When you have eaten the scroll, and digested it, you will find it sour to your stomach. Scripture does not please the flesh. When you have fully digested it, it will be woven through your commentary like a thread through pearls.

You will get 4 extra credit points if you can find the 4 scriptures that I have woven through that last sentence. Likewise, when I read Orthodoxy's last post, I see the scripture woven through.

It is demonstrably true that the carnal man does not perceive the things of the Spirit.

Then you have explained why those of the Ortho bunch can't understand believers when they quote scripture; it goes against your flesh and manifests your idol of ortho. I have understood the apprehension of the ortho bunch as it would cause them tremendous social change and affiliation to adopt to the truth of scripture. I have yet to hear one ortho testimony of salvation besides I was baptized as an infant; therefore it is my experience that salvation is of your ortho religion, not of Jesus Christ.

I release the ortho bunch from having to give scripture reference (book, chapter and verse) because I doubt than many of them know the scriptures as it relates to ortho tradition (because it isn't in the scripture).

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Congratulations, Solo- you have managed to avoid all of the points I laid our for you.

Then you have explained why those of the Ortho bunch can't understand believers when they quote scripture;

We understand the scriptures. If, and that is if, we do not understand those whom you call believers, it is because they cannot articulate their thoughts and or beliefs. This is because, as I have stated, many of these 'believers' never digest the words of God and internalize them. Instead, they barf them at others, then pick up the chunks and cram them into wide phylacteries.

it goes against your flesh and manifests your idol of ortho. I have understood the apprehension of the ortho bunch as it would cause them tremendous social change and affiliation to adopt to the truth of scripture.

I would have to adapt a great deal if I was to adopt the theology of the JWs, also. It isn't the change that makes me apprehensive- it's lies promoted as truth that does.

I have yet to hear one ortho testimony of salvation besides I was baptized as an infant; therefore it is my experience that salvation is of your ortho religion, not of Jesus Christ.

You would have done well to stop at "I have yet to hear." I find that my Orthodox brethren have testimonies of miracles and repentance and seasons of refreshing in about the same ratio as Evangelicals. I know because I was an Evangelical, and a pastor at that, for many years. I also know that talk is cheap. I heard lots of testimonials from people who remained therefater essentially unchanged.

I release the ortho bunch from having to give scripture reference (book, chapter and verse) because I doubt than many of them know the scriptures as it relates to ortho tradition (because it isn't in the scripture).

I've laid down the gauntlet of challenge before, and again, feel free to challenge me on the scriptures, especially in how they relate to the full counsel of God. Feel free to challenge me on the exegesis of terms, the historical background of text and verse, and anything else you wish. As I said before, wet your thumb and let's go to the scriptures.

Points that you dropped:

Solo:
Until you awake from your dream that orthodoxy is the way, the truth, and the life, you will be unable to see Jesus Christ as the way, the truth, and the life.
OC:
Post proof that Orthodoxy, myself, or anyone else ever said those words.
You cannot, for in typical fashion, you make a ridiculous statement and then argue against as if one of us had said it.

Solo:
You are consistant in your inability to quote scripture to back up your theology though.
OC:
Poppycock. "God is the God of the living and not the dead" is not only scripture, it is the words of Christ- gospel. "death swallowed up in death" is scripture. Earlier, Orthodoxy laid out several key scriptures which you have not dealt with at all.

And you still haven't

OC:
When you have eaten the scroll, and digested it, you will find it sour to your stomach. Scripture does not please the flesh. When you have fully digested it, it will be woven through your commentary like a thread through pearls.

You will get 4 extra credit points if you can find the 4 scriptures that I have woven through that last sentence.

Whassamatter? Not up for the challenge?

 

[Solo]

Congratulations, Solo- you have managed to avoid all of the points I laid our for you.

Then you have explained why those of the Ortho bunch can't understand believers when they quote scripture;

We understand the scriptures. If, and that is if, we do not understand those whom you call believers, it is because they cannot articulate their thoughts and or beliefs. This is because, as I have stated, many of these 'believers' never digest the words of God and internalize them. Instead, they barf them at others, then pick up the chunks and cram them into wide phylacteries.

it goes against your flesh and manifests your idol of ortho. I have understood the apprehension of the ortho bunch as it would cause them tremendous social change and affiliation to adopt to the truth of scripture.

I would have to adapt a great deal if I was to adopt the theology of the JWs, also. It isn't the change that makes me apprehensive- it's lies promoted as truth that does.

I have yet to hear one ortho testimony of salvation besides I was baptized as an infant; therefore it is my experience that salvation is of your ortho religion, not of Jesus Christ.

You would have done well to stop at "I have yet to hear." I find that my Orthodox brethren have testimonies of miracles and repentance and seasons of refreshing in about the same ratio as Evangelicals. I know because I was an Evangelical, and a pastor at that, for many years. I also know that talk is cheap. I heard lots of testimonials from people who remained therefater essentially unchanged.

I release the ortho bunch from having to give scripture reference (book, chapter and verse) because I doubt than many of them know the scriptures as it relates to ortho tradition (because it isn't in the scripture).

I've laid down the gauntlet of challenge before, and again, feel free to challenge me on the scriptures, especially in how they relate to the full counsel of God. Feel free to challenge me on the exegesis of terms, the historical background of text and verse, and anything else you wish. As I said before, wet your thumb and let's go to the scriptures.

Points that you dropped:

Solo:
Until you awake from your dream that orthodoxy is the way, the truth, and the life, you will be unable to see Jesus Christ as the way, the truth, and the life.
OC:
Post proof that Orthodoxy, myself, or anyone else ever said those words.
You cannot, for in typical fashion, you make a ridiculous statement and then argue against as if one of us had said it.

[quote:8b662]Solo:
You are consistant in your inability to quote scripture to back up your theology though.
OC:
Poppycock. "God is the God of the living and not the dead" is not only scripture, it is the words of Christ- gospel. "death swallowed up in death" is scripture. Earlier, Orthodoxy laid out several key scriptures which you have not dealt with at all.

And you still haven't

OC:
When you have eaten the scroll, and digested it, you will find it sour to your stomach. Scripture does not please the flesh. When you have fully digested it, it will be woven through your commentary like a thread through pearls.

You will get 4 extra credit points if you can find the 4 scriptures that I have woven through that last sentence.

Whassamatter? Not up for the challenge?[/quote:8b662]
Satan knew the scriptures and showed it so when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Satan was as the ortho bunch in that they twisted scripture to fit their own devices. I suspect that satan has more to offer those that continue in their paganistic ways than those that uphold the God's Word as the final authority.
Your inability to understand the scripture as it relates to the body of Jesus Christ is enough for me to know your lacking. You are more able to accuse with sarcasm than you are to teach with the love of Jesus. Perhaps one day you will repent and see the light.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Satan knew the scriptures and showed it so when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Satan was as the ortho bunch in that they twisted scripture to fit their own devices. I suspect that satan has more to offer those that continue in their paganistic ways than those that uphold the God's Word as the final authority.
Your inability to understand the scripture as it relates to the body of Jesus Christ is enough for me to know your lacking. You are more able to accuse with sarcasm than you are to teach with the love of Jesus. Perhaps one day you will repent and see the light.

Perhaps one day you will respond to points, questions and comments instead of digressing into your novle reading of history.

Just so that I don't waste any more time seeking straight answers to direct questions: Do you plan at any time to address my points, or are you going to continue to squirm and lash out?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Orthodoxy - why don't you allow the bible to speak for itself! It's pretty clear!

You think what's rattling around inside of your head is what the Bible teaches that is clear. So do the Mormons and JW's. The majority of Protestants reject it for they at least see the lie of soul sleep for what it is. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist by any chance?

My mother in law when she really wants to control us says "the Lord told me that you should do X". Needless to say I am a skeptic when people llike you and Solo tell me that what you are preaching is straight from the Lord. Especially when your logic is amiss.

Blessings

This is what the bible says...

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57

I believe the Bible teaches that those that have died are awaiting the resurrection. I believe the souls of those that have passed on are in a state of rest until Jesus returns.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 6:9-11


It is very clear!!!! There is nothing but what God says right here rattling around in my mind Thess. And I stand by what it says. The trumpet has not sounded...Christ has not come through the clouds with a shout yet...therefore, those who are in Christ are asleep and awaiting his return. The scriptures are clear. Your argument cannot refute what the bible CLEARLY teaches.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The bible is extremely clear on this fact. That when we die, we go to sleep and await the return of Christ.

Man has no consciousness when he dies? Doesn't sound like it from the story of Lazurus and the rich man. The scriptures tell us we are absent from the body, present from the Lord.

Do the scriptures not say "absent from the body, present with the Lord"?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Was the good their not really in paradise on that day? Lot's more.

Our bodies rest but our souls are with him. We do have rest from the trials of this life but soul sleep is false theology.

It was a parable Thess! The point wasn't about death, it was about something else that Christ was trying to get through to the pharisees...it had nothing to do about what happens when we die. However Paul makes it VERY clear on what happens to us when we die. I prefer to take what the bible says and not YOU thanks all the same

 

[Orthodoxy]

[quote="Merry Menagerie":0143b]The bible is extremely clear on this fact. That when we die, we go to sleep and await the return of Christ.

Man has no consciousness when he dies? Doesn't sound like it from the story of Lazurus and the rich man. The scriptures tell us we are absent from the body, present from the Lord.

Do the scriptures not say "absent from the body, present with the Lord"?

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Was the good their not really in paradise on that day? Lot's more.

Our bodies rest but our souls are with him. We do have rest from the trials of this life but soul sleep is false theology.

It was a parable Thess! The point wasn't about death, it was about something else that Christ was trying to get through to the pharisees...it had nothing to do about what happens when we die. However Paul makes it VERY clear on what happens to us when we die. I prefer to take what the bible says and not YOU thanks all the same [/quote:0143b]

The bible is clear that the body dies not the soul, cupcake.

Jesus died soulically? His "spirit and soul" slept?

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Jesus raised His body, cupcake not His soul from death.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is speaking of the resurrection of the body only not the soul for the soul "is present with the Lord" or tasting eternal damnation bodiless.

the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Cupcake do you read these scriptures before you post them? That whole verse talks about the corruptible "body" being changed and raised to incorruption.

Proof texting to manipulate people is plain ol witchcraft.

Orthodoxy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The scriptures speak for themselves Orthodoxy...they are quite capable of doing that without any 'interpretation' from you or your religion.

I prefer to go by what the bible says anyday. Call it witchcraft if you like...but the bible is crystal clear! The dead are not at your beck and call ready to answer your prayers...they are asleep...and may they rest in peace already!!!

 

[Orthodoxy]

The scriptures speak for themselves Orthodoxy...they are quite capable of doing that without any 'interpretation' from you or your religion.

I prefer to go by what the bible says anyday. Call it witchcraft if you like...but the bible is crystal clear! The dead are not at your beck and call ready to answer your prayers...they are asleep...and may they rest in peace already!!!

Ok, my dearest Merry Menagerie. Although I have NOT been told my endearing word "cupcake" to express my utter joy of your sweetness towards the orthodox faith was out of line and "inflaming"' I must submit my humblest apology for offending you. I merely meant to say your words are like honey in my mouth. Forgive.

Orthodoxy

The following people will now meet mr ignora.

Heidi

Merry Menagerie

Von

solo, cj will be next if I dont get answers to specific questions queried of them.

anyone else what to join them?