Was Paul always correct?

[Menno]

afghanastan is NOT the daughter of babylon- Psa 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Psa 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

This is not about countries or individuals just doing this- it is about the righteous judgement of babylon by God.


I am however beginning to understand what is going on here: You have a problem with women submitting themselves to their heads(husbands) and you likewise who are called to be the wife of the Lord are to submit to Him as your head, but you have the same problem submitting to the Lord because when you read His word to you as His bride, you do not believe what it says but are in rebellion against Him.

If a wife is to submit, that means you are likewise to submit but you read the word and judge the Lord and therefore it cannot put your flesh under subjection and renew your mind.

My point was that the Bible is sometimes in error, in my opinion. I think it would be an evil thing to throw an innocent child against the rocks.

Elijah, I addressed your misuse of the Psalm.

 

[Menno]

Do you know that you do not only disagree with Paul but also with Peter than? because they both agree on this issue and both have written it.Now it is true you may not always agree with your pastor- however, that can be that either you do not know yet what He does, or that he is wrong BUT your pastor is not an aposlte, chosen by Jesus Christ from the beginning entrusted to raise Him His church and write His word for the teaching of the rest of all beleivers who would ever live.-It is distrubing that you do not have any deep rooted love and affection and respect for the word of God yet but i pray that God deliver that to you- Either that OR you did have it, and some false teachers came and ground it out of you with their heresies.

Anyways Peter says: 1Pe 3:1 ¶ Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now maybe you disagree with paul AND peter, do you disagree with the torah which gives the holy testimony of sarah who obeyed her husband?

I could come up with hypothetical cases such as:

If a man orders his wife to help him rob a bank, should she comply?

Perhaps it would be best if, within reason, a husband and wife be submissive to each other.

If the husband is submitting to the authority of Christ, then why would the husband encourage his wife to rob a bank?

 

[prough91]

We can't pick and choose what we want to believe from the Bible. If the Bible has even one part wrong, then how can anyone know what is truth in it? I remember when I read Billy Graham's biography, there was a story about how he really struggled with there being a hell. He finally made the conscious decision that if the Bible talked about it, well, he was just going to have to believe it.

 

[elijah23]

Elijah,

Who get's to decide what we should pick and choose to follow in Scripture?

It is perhaps that you do not like what Paul wrote, because you do not fully understand what Paul wrote? Is it possible that cultural understandings NOW are clouding what Scripture says?

Which influences which? Scripture influence culture, or culture influence Scripture?

Lastly, if you are suggesting that we can ignore some of Paul's writings - then what do you say to a non-believer that says, "well, I do not like it when Jesus said 'I'm the way the truth and the life, you can only come to the father through me.', I think I will ignore it like you ignore what Paul wrote."?

We need to learn to discern the Lord’s voice and follow him. To do that we must pray constantly (1 Theses 5:17).

I think you’ll find you don’t have to stop what you are doing to pray. Just start talking to him. More importantly, be listening for what he has to say to you.

 

[Menno]

Elijah,

Who get's to decide what we should pick and choose to follow in Scripture?

It is perhaps that you do not like what Paul wrote, because you do not fully understand what Paul wrote? Is it possible that cultural understandings NOW are clouding what Scripture says?

Which influences which? Scripture influence culture, or culture influence Scripture?

Lastly, if you are suggesting that we can ignore some of Paul's writings - then what do you say to a non-believer that says, "well, I do not like it when Jesus said 'I'm the way the truth and the life, you can only come to the father through me.', I think I will ignore it like you ignore what Paul wrote."?

We need to learn to discern the Lord’s voice and follow him. To do that we must pray constantly (1 Theses 5:17).

I think you’ll find you don’t have to stop what you are doing to pray. Just start talking to him. More importantly, be listening for what he has to say to you.

Is not the Lord's voice apart of the Scriptures? I agree that we listen for the voice of God and the Holy Spirit instructs is understanding (note, that I did not say "our understanding" - it is not about ourselves, but about God).

And you really did not address the bulk of my post.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Elijah,

Who get's to decide what we should pick and choose to follow in Scripture?

It is perhaps that you do not like what Paul wrote, because you do not fully understand what Paul wrote? Is it possible that cultural understandings NOW are clouding what Scripture says?

Which influences which? Scripture influence culture, or culture influence Scripture?

Lastly, if you are suggesting that we can ignore some of Paul's writings - then what do you say to a non-believer that says, "well, I do not like it when Jesus said 'I'm the way the truth and the life, you can only come to the father through me.', I think I will ignore it like you ignore what Paul wrote."?

We need to learn to discern the Lord’s voice and follow him. To do that we must pray constantly (1 Theses 5:17).

I think you’ll find you don’t have to stop what you are doing to pray. Just start talking to him. More importantly, be listening for what he has to say to you.

Is not the Lord's voice apart of the Scriptures? I agree that we listen for the voice of God and the Holy Spirit instructs is understanding (note, that I did not say "our understanding" - it is not about ourselves, but about God).

And you really did not address the bulk of my post.

Join the club...my post regarding 2 Corinthians has been completely ignored.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I could come up with hypothetical cases such as:

If a man orders his wife to help him rob a bank, should she comply?

Perhaps it would be best if, within reason, a husband and wife be submissive to each other.

a husband and wife do submit to each other in some ways however the husband is the head of the wife.

You may give examples all day long but the fact is that nothing can come into our lives that GOD has not planned to use for good regardless is men mean it for evil if we are loving and walking after Him. husband certianly can tell his wife to help Him rob a bank and the wife can walk faithfully without any fear in subjection and prayer for her husband in great faith that the LORD will save her and hopefully from her heart have mercy on her husband. TOO much fear of obedience because of situations comes in, instead of obeying the Lord without fear and trusting that HE is in control and can deliver. Do you know about abraham and sarah? Twice abraham had her lie and say she was his sister(not also wife) and twice pagan rulers took her to lay with her and she obeyed abraham and was taken because of it. Still she did not fear she just obeyed and trusted her God. Now this COULD have caused her to have men commit adultary with her twice- but did it? NO becuase God was in control and GOD saved her.- We as women are told to be daughters of sarah1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. - GOD delivers!

anyways it is not a holy thing to take the bible and say it is wrong because you make up situations that arent even in the middle of happening to justify not obeying the word.



As far as the psalm. those " children" are daughters of babylon not littleral infants- but either way daughters of babylon arent " innocent". If you say you know the Lord but you call His word wrong and error then you cannot know Him becuase HE IS HIS WORD and HE has put HIS WORD above his name. You cannot even discern correctly what IS God and what is not if yoiu jusdge things He says in error

 

[Menno]

Join the club...my post regarding 2 Corinthians has been completely ignored.

What did you want addressed? As I read over it, it made sense to me and is a good understanding. Typically, that passage is used in regards to marriage. And I believe that there needs to be and should be unison in faith for marriage.

 

[Menno]

No thank you, I just had lunch.

Ironic, somewhat, insulting others while at the same time attempting to suggest that Paul insulted women.

 

[elijah23]

Elijah,

Who get's to decide what we should pick and choose to follow in Scripture?

It is perhaps that you do not like what Paul wrote, because you do not fully understand what Paul wrote? Is it possible that cultural understandings NOW are clouding what Scripture says?

Which influences which? Scripture influence culture, or culture influence Scripture?

Lastly, if you are suggesting that we can ignore some of Paul's writings - then what do you say to a non-believer that says, "well, I do not like it when Jesus said 'I'm the way the truth and the life, you can only come to the father through me.', I think I will ignore it like you ignore what Paul wrote."?

We need to learn to discern the Lord’s voice and follow him. To do that we must pray constantly (1 Theses 5:17).

I think you’ll find you don’t have to stop what you are doing to pray. Just start talking to him. More importantly, be listening for what he has to say to you.

Is not the Lord's voice apart of the Scriptures? I agree that we listen for the voice of God and the Holy Spirit instructs is understanding (note, that I did not say "our understanding" - it is not about ourselves, but about God).

And you really did not address the bulk of my post.

You ask many questions.

I doubt any of us fully understands what Paul wrote.

I don’t think culture has anything to do with Scripture. If something is incorrect today because we live in a different culture, then that destroys the integrity of the entire Bible. You could dispute anything in the Bible on cultural grounds, if you used that reasoning.

I don’t think, to answer the next question, that culture influences the Bible, for the reason I just mentioned. I suppose the Bible does influence culture, probably to a great extent in Christian countries.

The last question is easy. Jesus is our Lord. You obey his teachings without question.

 

[elijah23]

If the husband is submitting to the authority of Christ, then why would the husband encourage his wife to rob a bank?

Lots of men rob banks.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Join the club...my post regarding 2 Corinthians has been completely ignored.

What did you want addressed? As I read over it, it made sense to me and is a good understanding. Typically, that passage is used in regards to marriage. And I believe that there needs to be and should be unison in faith for marriage.

Kind of funny don't you think when Paul is not talking about marriage?

 

[Menno]

elijah,

If doubt is being cast on the Letters that Paul wrote to Christians to help them live the Christian Faith, how is it that you are willing to accept what Mark, Matthew, John, or Luke wrote? How do you know THEY got it right?

If you do not fully understand what Paul wrote, why then seek to cast it aside? Before raising doubt about its truthfulness - perhaps it is better to seek understanding. You raised the question, "was Paul always correct", but every post back seems to indicate that you have already made your mind up that he wasn't.

Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture. Peter is suggesting then that we should follow what Paul wrote. While I grant you that abuses happen by mis-using the Scripture - that does not mean that the problem rests within Scripture or what Paul wrote.

You asked if a husband asked his wife to rob a bank, should she listen.

First, God's instructions are above everyone's. Therefore, the wife should listen to God's instructions.

Secondly, Paul tells the husbands that we are to submit to Christ. Therefore, why would a Christian husband be telling his wife to rob a bank?

Look at it as a chain of command. Christ is the Head, he instructs the man, the man is then to follow those instructions and instruct his wife. The problem isn't with the chain of command, the problem is when the chain get's broken and is not followed.

While someone called it semantics, there is a difference between Lordship and Leadership. Christ is Lord, husbands are to submit to the Lordship of Christ and provide Leadership to his family. The family is to respect the Leadership of the Family.

 

[Menno]

If the husband is submitting to the authority of Christ, then why would the husband encourage his wife to rob a bank?

Lots of men rob banks.

Paul is not addressing the public at large, he is writing to Christians. Yes, his message has implications for the public at large, but ultimately the Scripture was written to believers.

So, I do not understand what you mean when you say "lots of men rob banks". Are you suggesting that a lot of followers of Christ rob banks?

 

[Sound Silence]

Who is defining "wicked and harmful"? Just because Scripture has been MIS-USED in the past by some, does not mean the problem is with the Scriptures. The problem is with those that misused it.

Well, obviously we have different definitions. You just pretend yours is right because you attach the word "God" to it. You think you are somehow exempt from the "everybody decides what is right and wrong for themselves", but you aren't. You just misdirect it by pointing the finger and pretending you answer to a higher power, but you know nothing about God apart from what you created for yourself.

And just because some guys made up their own beliefs and you adopted them doesn't make you any less guilty of creating your own morality, to suit your own needs.

But if you think the belief that women must submit to men isn't harmful, you need to look around a bit more and open your eyes, and you would see the definition of right and wrong that would actually help everyone.

 

[Sound Silence]

elijah,

If doubt is being cast on the Letters that Paul wrote to Christians to help them live the Christian Faith, how is it that you are willing to accept what Mark, Matthew, John, or Luke wrote? How do you know THEY got it right?

Good question. How *do* we know they got it right?

While someone called it semantics, there is a difference between Lordship and Leadership. Christ is Lord, husbands are to submit to the Lordship of Christ and provide Leadership to his family. The family is to respect the Leadership of the Family.

People submit to Leadership because they want to. People submit to Lordship because they have to. A commandment to submit means a 'have to'.

 

[elijah23]

I agree with what some folks have already posted. One must understand the context of who Paul is writing to and what he is writing about when reading his books in the NT. I don't think that Paul is saying that women are subserviant to men.

Were you addressing this to me? If Paul's teachings can't be taken at face value, what use are they?

 

[Menno]

[quote="Aero_Hudson":2n0izoua]
Join the club...my post regarding 2 Corinthians has been completely ignored.

What did you want addressed? As I read over it, it made sense to me and is a good understanding. Typically, that passage is used in regards to marriage. And I believe that there needs to be and should be unison in faith for marriage.

Kind of funny don't you think when Paul is not talking about marriage?[/quote:2n0izoua]

But the application is still valid. and I do not know about you, but I personally would not go to an unbeliever for spiritual advice or help in my Christian walk. Which is what Paul is addressing.

 

[Menno]

Who is defining "wicked and harmful"? Just because Scripture has been MIS-USED in the past by some, does not mean the problem is with the Scriptures. The problem is with those that misused it.

Well, obviously we have different definitions. You just pretend yours is right because you attach the word "God" to it. You think you are somehow exempt from the "everybody decides what is right and wrong for themselves", but you aren't. You just misdirect it by pointing the finger and pretending you answer to a higher power, but you know nothing about God apart from what you created for yourself.

And just because some guys made up their own beliefs and you adopted them doesn't make you any less guilty of creating your own morality, to suit your own needs.

But if you think the belief that women must submit to men isn't harmful, you need to look around a bit more and open your eyes, and you would see the definition of right and wrong that would actually help everyone.

Oh, how much easier it would be if I merely said to my wife "Obey me, regardless". Rather, I understand that my role of husband is to submit myself to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. As I do, I realize that my decisions are not about me, but about we - my family.

What is harmful is when Trust is misused for one's own personal gain. When a husband misuses the Trust that his wife places in him, then yes it is harmful.

 

[Menno]

elijah,

If doubt is being cast on the Letters that Paul wrote to Christians to help them live the Christian Faith, how is it that you are willing to accept what Mark, Matthew, John, or Luke wrote? How do you know THEY got it right?

Good question. How *do* we know they got it right?

Question for another thread.

While someone called it semantics, there is a difference between Lordship and Leadership. Christ is Lord, husbands are to submit to the Lordship of Christ and provide Leadership to his family. The family is to respect the Leadership of the Family.

People submit to Leadership because they want to. People submit to Lordship because they have to. A commandment to submit means a 'have to'.

When a man and woman enter into marriage, it is a willful decisions by both parts. In other words, Marriage is designed to be entered into because both parties "want to". Submitting to Leadership.