WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Drew]

You stated that Jesus did not obey the Torah by giving examples.
Jesus is God.
God inspired the Torah.
Why would Jesus not obey the Torah?

Because Jesus was symbolically announcing that the time of the Law of Moses was coming to an end.

 

[Drew]

Jesus challenged the Sabbath Law?
When?

We could get into this, but I am 99% sure it would be a waste of time. I will simply point out this: God rested on the 7th day from His act of creation and declared it the Sabbath. Jesus rests in the tomb on the Sabbath and rises on the "8th" day - the first day of a new week. The message is clear to those with ears to hear - this is a second creation! Hence Paul writes of new creation.

Since we are now in the time of the new creation, the old sabbath no longer applies.

Jesus was very clever - by challenging the Sabbath during His ministry, He was signalling that a new Genesis was on the horizon, centred around His own resurrection. Under that new creation, the symbols of the Genesis creation event are appropriately to be set aside.

You guys, I politely suggest, have lost track of the over-arching Biblical narrative - Jesus is initiating a new covenant, a new creation.

The markers of the old covenant - temple and Law of Moses are to be left behind.

 

[Drew]

God said what to eat and not eat - check it out - there's a lot of Torah chapters about it

That is precisely my point! And Jesus challenges this when he clearly declares that nothing that goes into a man defiles him - this is a clear challenge to the Torah.

 

[GodsGrace]

The priests slaughtered them and purged the altar with their blood to atone for all Israel, for the king ordered the burnt offering and the sin offering for all Israel. 2 Chronicles 29:24


Atone — Strongs H3722 — kāpar

1. to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch
   1. (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch
   2. (Piel)
      1. to cover over, pacify, propitiate
      2. to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
      3. to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
   3. (Pual)
      1. to be covered over
      2. to make atonement for
   4. (Hithpael) to be covered

Getting caught up in words makes one lose sight of the full picture, which is much simpler and easier to understand and explain.

In post no. 308 you said the following:
The blood of the animals made atonement for the sin, which means it covered, appeased the legal requirement, as well as forgave.

Innocent paid the price for the guilty.

The blood of animals did not “take away” the sin however, it covered it, which is why the OT saints did not go directly to heaven, but were contained in the heart of the earth, which was paradise, being called Abraham’s Bosom.

Later when Christ paid the price for our sin, and descended down into the heart of the earth, He took the OT saints to heaven when He ascended, having taken away their sins.

Now you're saying that atone means to cover.
In the O.T. sins were ATONED for,,,,which you say means "covered".

Now you say that in the N.T. Christ TAKES SINS AWAY.

IF Christ IS our ATONEMENT,,,,does that mean He only COVERS sin,,,as per your definition....
or does it mean He TAKES AWAY sin, as per your definition?

 

[JLB]

Getting caught up in words makes one lose sight of the full picture, which is much simpler and easier to understand and explain.

You stated that Atone doesn’t mean cover.

There is no “getting caught up in words”.


There is simply you not understanding what the word atone means.


The priests slaughtered them and purged the altar with their blood to atone for all Israel, for the king ordered the burnt offering and the sin offering for all Israel. 2 Chronicles 29:24


Atone — Strongs H3722 — kāpar

1. to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch
   1. (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch
   2. (Piel)
      1. to cover over, pacify, propitiate
      2. to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
      3. to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
   3. (Pual)
      1. to be covered over
      2. to make atonement for
   4. (Hithpael) to be covered

JLB

 

[JLB]

IF Christ IS our ATONEMENT,,,,does that mean He only COVERS sin,,,as per your definition....
or does it mean He TAKES AWAY sin, as per your definition?

You asked what “ATONE” means.

I gave you the answer.

Now you are wanting to use another word “atonement“ and interject it into the discussion as if that is the word we are discussing.


Please post the New Testament definition of atone, and the scripture that uses the word atone.


In the New Testament atonement is not used in the NKJV, but rather the word is reconciliation.

In the King James, the word atonement is used Once, but as we can see by the context, reconciliation is the more correct rendering.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:11 KJV


For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5:10-11.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

good points - i often think God made the important things clear like love God and love man - the other things were meant to instruct us on how to love God and love man but man makes them debate fodder

i also think sometimes man complicates simple things and turns them into something they are not

i agree - paul would have to agree with Jesus so go back to Jesus when paul seems to contradict
exactly - solid simple point - amen
amen - an impossible task - each person has to change their own minds with |God's help - pressuring others really makes them resist more - no one likes to be pushed around - pressuring others also gives an impression of desperation - like they don't believe their own doctrines unless everyone else agrees - or something

Agreed.

not sure what you mean? - do you mean scripture is clear yet people make it complicated?

Yes.
We were discussing Matthew 5:18
Jesus says that not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law
UNTIL heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished.
Has heaven and earth passed away?
Then how could all be accomplished??

Yes. The simplest answer is always the right one...
can't remember who said that.
When one doctrine is complicated.....
all the rest have to be adjusted accordingly!
So things make no sense anymore.

another huge topic - "if you love me you will obey my commands" - is that an instruction or a promise? - does God give God-lovers the ability to do the right thing or do God-lovers have to use their own ability to try to obey God - imo grace is God's ability inside us to do what God says

Two different denominations taught me that it's an instruction.
HOWEVER, Jesus went away and sent the Holy Spirit to convict, instruct, help, etc.
God does help us, as you've stated.

lol - that is a really good point - concise and easy to understand - God's truths are simple and uncomplicated - imo when it get complicated man has been messing around again
saved? - or a sign of faith? - faith without works is dead - i prove my faith by my actions

repent in greek is metamnous - change mind - God's words change our mind - sin is doing what we want - repenting is changing our mind and deciding God's ways are much better - that simple mind change sets us on a different path in the right direction - so our new actions would be a sign of our change of mind

i think God helps us - we don't have to struggle to do the right thing - we agree with God and then get God's help to do the right thing - God's power living in us to cause us to walk pleasing to the God

Amen.
We can do nothing of ourselves.
Apart from Me, you can do nothing.
John 15:5

 

[JLB]

We could get into this, but I am 99% sure it would be a waste of time.

Isn’t that the truth!


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You asked what “ATONE” means.

I gave you the answer.

Now you are wanting to use another word “atonement“ and interject it into the discussion as if that is the word we are discussing.


Please post the New Testament definition of atone, and the scripture that uses the word atone.


In the New Testament atonement is not used in the NKJV, but rather the word is reconciliation.

In the King James, the word atonement is used Once, but as we can see by the context, reconciliation is the more correct rendering.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:11 KJV


For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5:10-11.



JLB

The KJV used RECONCILE because ATONE means RECONCILIATION.
Jesus has reconciled us to God Father.
The sacrifice of Jesus is an atoning sacrifice.
Romans 5.11, Romans 5:19 we are made right with God.

My point was that you conflicted the O.T. and the N.T.
I see this a lot on this thread.

Atone cannot mean TO COVER in the O.T.
and mean TAKE AWAY SIN in the N.T.

What the difference is would be the QUALITY of the sacrifice.
Since God is an Almighty and Holy being,,,the sacrifices of animals were not sufficient to reconcile man to Himself, somewhat (not completely) as man was before the fall.

For this to happen, a being that was as Holy as God had to offer the sacrifice.
Jesus.

So God accepted Jesus' atonement sacrifice and t hat ended the sacrificial system for those that would believe in Jesus.

Notice what it says in Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.

If you go only by bible verses,,,the above nullifies your idea that sin in the old testament was covered....it says I WILL NOT REMEMBER YOUR SINS.

I'm saying we need theology and that's the forum we're in.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 2, near the middle.

You were asking what this means?
Ephesians 2:15
15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Paul was speaking to the Ephesian Gentiles.
The enmity is the resentment the Gentiles had against the Jews who were favored by God.ù
Paul is saying that the system of the Law has been ended and now we have Christ as our peace because of what He has done for us through His blood.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Jesus was symbolically announcing that the time of the Law of Moses was coming to an end.

Jesus symbolically announced things?
Do you believe anything He said was literal?

Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus instructs the Jews to obey the teachings of the Pharisees.
1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Once again, as in Matthew 5:17 we learn that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law.
In fact our righteousness has to surpass that of the Pharisees.
Matthew 5:20

 

[Drew]

You were asking what this means?
Ephesians 2:15
.....
Paul is saying that the system of the Law has been ended and now we have Christ as our peace because of what He has done for us through His blood.

Indeed. And the "system of Law" is the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

Jesus symbolically announced things?
Do you believe anything He said was literal?

A false either-or. And Jesus acting symbolically is all over the Gospels - such actions are all over the place!

Jesus says that Caiaphus will see Him (Jesus) "coming on the clouds". Do you think Jesus is saying that Caiaphus will look out the window and see Jesus floating by on a cloud?

Jesus said you must be born again. Is He saying you must enter your mother's womb and make a second exit?

And what about all the parables?

 

[GodsGrace]

A false either-or. And Jesus acting symbolically is all over the Gospels - such actions are all over the place!

Jesus says that Caiaphus will see Him (Jesus) "coming on the clouds". Do you think Jesus is saying that Caiaphus will look out the window and see Jesus floating by on a cloud?

Jesus said you must be born again. Is He saying you must enter your mother's womb and make a second exit?

And what about all the parables?

No commenti.
Sorry.

 

[jerry63935]

I agree with you...
but let me ask you this:
What do you mean by the law?

what law was paul referring to the law is holy

 

[Drew]

There is another argument why we should not look to the 10 commandments at this time. In Romans 7, Paul writes that the Law of Moses causes sin to be empowered in him! Yes, the Law arouses the inner sinful nature. People will deny this, but it is clearly what Paul is saying if we take his words seriously and do not commit great violence to the text to serve a particular theological agenda. To wit:

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in [c]the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul even names one of the 10 :" you shall not covet". And what happens to Paul when he tried to follow that commandment? Things got worse - sin became aroused, was brought to life, it killed him.

And you (who say we should still look to the 10) want to follow in those footsteps?

 

[GodsGrace]

There is another argument why we should not look to the 10 commandments at this time. In Romans 7, Paul writes that the Law of Moses causes sin to be empowered in him! Yes, the Law arouses the inner sinful nature. People will deny this, but it is clearly what Paul is saying if we take his words seriously and do not commit great violence to the text to serve a particular theological agenda. To wit:

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in [c]the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul even names one of the 10 :" you shall not covet". And what happens to Paul when he tried to follow that commandment? Things got worse - sin became aroused, was brought to life, it killed him.

And you (who say we should still look to the 10) want to follow in those footsteps?

Which paths should we follow?
Should we NOT look to the 10?

 

[Drew]

Which paths should we follow?
Should we NOT look to the 10?

Paul appears to think we should not look to the 10 - look what happened when he tried to "not covet". I believe Jesus would say to look to His teachings and to the indwellling Spirit.

I am reminded of a Seinfeld episode where Jerry comes to be believe that his dry-cleaner has been wearing Jerry's clothes. He accuses the dry-cleaner who defensively objects "Jerry, wearing a customer's clothes is against the dry-cleaner's code!" Jerry replies "You need a code to tell you not to wear other people's clothing?"

I think the same spirit (pun intended) applies here - with the indwelling Spirit, why do we need a code (e.g. the 10)?

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul appears to think we should not look to the 10 - look what happened when he tried to "not covet". I believe Jesus would say to look to His teachings and to the indwellling Spirit.

I am reminded of a Seinfeld episode where Jerry comes to be believe that his dry-cleaner has been wearing Jerry's clothes. He accuses the dry-cleaner who defensively objects "Jerry, wearing a customer's clothes is against the dry-cleaner's code!" Jerry replies "You need a code to tell you not to wear other people's clothing?"

I think the same spirit (pun intended) applies here - with the indwelling Spirit, why do we need a code (e.g. the 10)?

But what ARE the teachings of Jesus?
What did He mean when He stated to keep His commands in John 14:15?
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

And what does this mean?
James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

It doesn't seem so bad to just borrow somebody's nice jacket for one evening....
this is why a code is needed for dry cleaners.
Wearing other person's clothing is different than borrowing a jacket and then cleaning it again.
Thus, the code makes this clear.

BTW,,,do you also agree with Jerry regarding loss of salvation?
YOU KNOW HOW TO TAKE A RESERVATION....
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO KEEP A RESERVATION....

 

[GodsGrace]

dble