WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[GodsGrace]

Jesus fulfilled the things in the law that pointed to Him such as being the Passover Lamb.

Yes, He fulfilled what was predicted of Him....as the prophets and O.T. writings were of the Messiah to come.

Agreed. And I said this many times on this thread.

He is the Word of God the people rejected.
He is the manna that came down from heaven the people rejected.
He is the High Priest that was chosen by God, that the people rejected.

Agreed.
Jesus was a Prophet, a Priest, and a King.
But all of the above is also what He was, and much more.

This things were contained the the Ark of the covenant and were symbols of the people rejecting Christ.


The two tablets of the 10 Commandments
The golden jar of manna
The rod of Aaron that budded

The entire Torah contains hundreds of things that foreshadowed and pointed to the Christ.

Agreed,,,although I really don't understand what this has to do with our conversation.

For one the term “destroy” is a idiomatic Rabbinical term that means “misinterpret and or misapply“ by adding or taking away words which adds or takes away the meaning of the law.


I don’t usually bring out this point because it’s not understood in today’s culture.

You should bring it out.
Destroy has different meanings in the bible.
I could go with your meaning.
Then Matthew 5:17 would read:
I HAVE NOT COME TO MISINTERPRET OR MISAPPLY THE LAW,
BUT TO FULFILL IT.

IOW...
To interpret it correctly ---- which Jesus did.
To NOT misapply it ----- which Jesus did.

He did not misapply the law when confronted with different questions from the Pharisees.
He interpreted the Law correctly, including the Sabbath being made for man.....

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17


Today under the New Covenant, we do not sacrifice animals, or submit to the Levitical Priesthood or keep Sabbath ordinances or ceremonial washings, or feast days, or physical circumcision...


That was required under the law of Moses, not under the New Covenant.

Agreed.
Whoever said we're still under the Law of Moses?

The Abrahamic Covenant is the core covenant that the law of Moses was added to temporarily, until the Seed should come.


The Abrahamic Covenant required Abraham and those who were in Covenant with the Lord, to walk before Him and be blameless.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


Same Lord we are in Covenant with in the New Covenant and the way we learn how to obey Him is to walk with Him and learn directly from Him the way Abraham learned to: by faith.


Not from a list of rules that we can not keep apart from His grace.

Faith and grace, the divine ability to do what the Lord requires of us and comes to us when He speaks to us. He speaks to and communes with us as we draw near to Him, and spend time with Him, showing Him we desire to be with Him, and learn from Him, and desire to hear His voice for the purpose of loving Him and obeying Him as a loving wife desires to please and obey her husband.


IOW, this is how the Lord desires for His people to learn from Him, by partaking from Him as the Tree of Life, not as from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


JLB

I just would have one issue with the above, although I agree with 90%.
But must leave now....

 

[GodsGrace]

I am aware, as I have shown in my posts, that the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

Where does any scripture writer, or Jesus, use the term "the moral law"?
Where does any scripture writer, or Jesus, ever draw a distinction between the 10 commandments and the rest of the Law of Moses (i.e. in terms that would justify your position that the 10 (or 9) remain in force while the the other 603 (or 604) are done away with?

Drew,,,I have to leave.

But I can't convince you about the above.
Jesus only spoke of the Moral Law.
The Law of Moses (613) was divided by categories even though it's not stated in the O.T.

You like analogies.
So how's this one:
We have LOTS of laws on the books, don't we?

Some laws are civil.
Some laws are criminal.

It's just a NATURAL happening due to the nature of the laws.

You could study up on this for yourself.
You don't have to trust me.

But I also can't keep debating with you something that is accepted by Christian theologians AND Protestant theologians. Gosh,,,even the Catholics agree! And the Calvinists!

What more can I say?

 

[Edward]

Amen.

I believe we all agree that the law of Moses contains the 10 Commandments.


However, the New Covenant is not the law of Moses, and we are under the New Covenant.



JLB

But is it not a perpetual covenant from His first word to the last? From a God who never changes and will not change?

That makes me want to take next Saturday off, lol.

 

[Drew]

Since Jesus is God,,,,He upheld the Laws HE Himself made before the beginning to time.

You are implicitly assuming the very thing you need to make a case for - that the Law if Moses - or even just the 10 commandments part - is eternal. As God in the flesh, Jesus certainly has the "right" to declare that the time of Law has ended. And I suggest this is exactly what He does. Example: He declares that no food defiles - this directly contradicts the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

I'm not here to debate the Sabbath.
Originally I was here to describe the difference between fulfill and abolished.
But that seems to have gone awry.

The problem is that "fulfillment" often includes bringing something to an end. If I fulfill the requirement for admission to Harvard, do I have to keep on applying? If I fulfill the purpose of my trip to Paris, does my trip not come to an end?

 

[JLB]

Keeping the commandments is biblical.
Because you want to call it something different, does NOT change the fact that the 10 commandments are to be kept by all Christians.

Ok. Please provide the scripture where Jesus and or His apostles said we are to keep the 10 commandments.

JLB

 

[JLB]

If you want to debate the 10 becoming the 9,,,I could do that for you right now in one sentence.

There are many more than 10 or 9.

The bottom line is He writes His commandments on our heart and mind in which they come from Him and are all about Love.

Loving God and loving our neighbor.



JLB

 

[JLB]

But is it not a perpetual covenant from His first word to the last? From a God who never changes and will not change?

That makes me want to take next Saturday off, lol.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. Hebrews 8:7-11


JLB

 

[jerry63935]

By saying doers of the word, does James mean this

it means exactly what it says do what the word says

 

[GodsGrace]

You are implicitly assuming the very thing you need to make a case for - that the Law if Moses - or even just the 10 commandments part - is eternal. As God in the flesh, Jesus certainly has the "right" to declare that the time of Law has ended. And I suggest this is exactly what He does. Example: He declares that no food defiles - this directly contradicts the Law of Moses.

NO FOOD DEFILES.
What TYPE of Law would you say that is?
Does the food you eat have anything to do with morality?

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem is that "fulfillment" often includes bringing something to an end. If I fulfill the requirement for admission to Harvard, do I have to keep on applying? If I fulfill the purpose of my trip to Paris, does my trip not come to an end?

Your trip to Paris should never come to an end.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok. Please provide the scripture where Jesus and or His apostles said we are to keep the 10 commandments.

JLB

No. YOU provide the scripture that says we ARE NOT to keep the 10 commandments.
Explain why you think the Moral Law is no linger binding on Christians.

I have no intention of having to prove to another Christian that the 10 commandments are to be kept. If you think Jesus was referring to something else, perhaps you could show us.
It seems to me you've become like those that claim there is no need to keep the commandments because we are members of the New Covenant.

Jesus invited us into the Kingdom of God.
There are rules that must be followed in order to remain a part of that Kingdom.
Following the Moral Law is one of them.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are many more than 10 or 9.

The bottom line is He writes His commandments on our heart and mind in which they come from Him and are all about Love.

Loving God and loving our neighbor.



JLB

If there are more than 10 or 9...
then at least let's obey the 9 or 10.

And who is going to argue with what you wrote above?
No one.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Matthew 5:17
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Ephesians 2:14-15
who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances

'Abolish' in the Matthew passage is 'katalyō' , while 'abolish' in the Ephesians passage is
'katargeō'.

Jesus did not come to katalyo the law, but he did come to katargeo it.

 

[OzSpen]

What exactly is THE LAW?
What do YOU mean when you mention The Law?

Which law are we supposed to observe, as Paul said (your statement).

Didn't Paul teach that we are NOT under the law?
Romans 6:14
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

wondering,

Would you please help me to better understand your position?

In the Old Testament God’s Law - ceremonial, civil and moral - were given. In the NT, it is stated that Jesus fulfilled that Law (Matthew 5:17; Hebrews 10:9).

Do you agree that the NT fulfilled the OT? Or, did it abolish the OT Law for Christians?

Just askin'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Matthew 5:17
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Ephesians 2:14-15
who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances

'Abolish' in the Matthew passage is 'katalyō' , while 'abolish' in the Ephesians passage is
'katargeō'.

Jesus did not come to katalyo the law, but he did come to katargeo it.

So, what's the difference in meaning between these two Greek words?

 

[Truthfrees]

That is precisely my point! And Jesus challenges this when he clearly declares that nothing that goes into a man defiles him - this is a clear challenge to the Torah.

torah doesn't say food defiles you man says that - so not a challenge to the torah - a challenge to man made laws that contradict torah - man made laws are not found in torah - they are found in books man writes

 

[Truthfrees]

I see not one indication - either direct or by implication - that the issue here is man-made divisions. What is your evidence for such a claim?

By contrast, it is, I suggest, quite clear that Paul is referring to the Law of Moses. Why? Because it is abundantly clear from the Old Testament itself, as well as from what we know from history, that the Law of Moses was for Jews only and functioned to set them apart from the Gentile nations.

I don't see how this can be disputed. In Leviticus 20:25 God clearly indicates that the food laws (part of the Law of Moses) function to set the Jew apart from the nations.

So when Paul refers to a "law of commandments" being abolished to bring the Jew and Gentile together, he has to be referring to the Law of Moses. Do you deny this?

pick your favorite letter and i will go through it paragraph by paragraph and prove it

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But is it not a perpetual covenant from His first word to the last? From a God who never changes and will not change?

That makes me want to take next Saturday off, lol.

No, you don't need to take next Saturday off.
The keeping of a literal Sabbath is not necessary anymore. Not because it got katalyo'd by Christ, but because it is katargeo'd by Christ.

Translated that means, since we have entered into Sabbath Rest in Christ there is no longer any need to enter rest through the old and superficial and inferior way of the law. Christ didn't destroy (katalyo) the Mosaic Sabbath observance, he made it obsolete (katargeo). It simply isn't needed anymore now that we have drawn near to God in a far better and everlasting Sabbath Rest perfected in Christ.

Same for circumcision. Christ didn't destroy the law of literal circumcision (he said he didn't come to do that). We have a circumcision through our faith in Christ that makes the old and superficial and inferior way obsolete and no longer needed. Not destroyed, just not needed anymore.

 

[Truthfrees]

Agreed.



Yes.
We were discussing Matthew 5:18
Jesus says that not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law
UNTIL heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplished.
Has heaven and earth passed away?
Then how could all be accomplished??

Yes. The simplest answer is always the right one...
can't remember who said that.
When one doctrine is complicated.....
all the rest have to be adjusted accordingly!
So things make no sense anymore.



Two different denominations taught me that it's an instruction.
HOWEVER, Jesus went away and sent the Holy Spirit to convict, instruct, help, etc.
God does help us, as you've stated.


Amen.
We can do nothing of ourselves.
Apart from Me, you can do nothing.
John 15:5

everything you said makes sense