WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[GodsGrace]

There is another argument why we should not look to the 10 commandments at this time. In Romans 7, Paul writes that the Law of Moses causes sin to be empowered in him! Yes, the Law arouses the inner sinful nature. People will deny this, but it is clearly what Paul is saying if we take his words seriously and do not commit great violence to the text to serve a particular theological agenda. To wit:

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in [c]the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [d]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except [e]through the Law; for I would not have known about [f]coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not [g]covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [h]coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart [j]from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was [k]to result in life, proved [l]to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul even names one of the 10 :" you shall not covet". And what happens to Paul when he tried to follow that commandment? Things got worse - sin became aroused, was brought to life, it killed him.

And you (who say we should still look to the 10) want to follow in those footsteps?

What verse did you quote?
You MUST in the theology forum,,,post book, chapter, verse.
Thanks.

 

[Drew]

But what ARE the teachings of Jesus?
What did He mean when He stated to keep His commands in John 14:15?
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

His commandments, not the Law of Moses.

And what does this mean?
James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

I am not sure exactly what James is referring to by "the word", but he certainly does not clearly direct us to follow the Law of Moses, or even the 10 commandments (part of the Law of Moses).

I notice you have not directly challenged my analysis of Romans 7 - surely you have to acknowledge that Paul "throws the 10 commandments under the bus" when he clearly states that the law against coveting only made him more covetous.

BTW,,,do you also agree with Jerry regarding loss of salvation?
YOU KNOW HOW TO TAKE A RESERVATION....
BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO KEEP A RESERVATION....

I have not read his stuff, but I will tell you what I believe Scripture teaches: we must "persist in doing good" so, yes, we can "lose" salvation.

 

[Drew]

What verse did you quote?
You MUST in the theology forum,,,post book, chapter, verse.
Thanks.

This is from Romans 7, verse 5 and following.

 

[GodsGrace]

His commandments, not the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses contains 613 rules and ordinances and commands.
It also includes 10 commandments (some follow only 9).
THIS is not called the Law of Moses....
it's called the Law of God
or
The 10 Commandments
or The Moral Law

Since Jesus is God,,,,He upheld the Laws HE Himself made before the beginning to time.
The 10 commandments,,,which you call His commandments...were confirmed by Jesus and He did speak of them.

This is called the moral law because it was given by God who IS a totally moral being and from whom we get our moral values.

HOW do you think "His Commandments" differ from the 10?

I am not sure exactly what James is referring to by "the word", but he certainly does not clearly direct us to follow the Law of Moses, or even the 10 commandments (part of the Law of Moses).

When James mentions being doers of the Word,,,,he means the Word of God.
Jesus spoke the Word of God and Prophets also,,,,the Word of God was also written, as in the O.T.

James says to submit to God in 4:7
How do we submit to God if we do not know what He wants and do not do what He wants?

You know the 10 so you can say they are no longer in effect because you follow them anyway.
But this is not the right way to speak to new christians who may not know them and believe it's OK to not obey the commandments.

I notice you have not directly challenged my analysis of Romans 7 - surely you have to acknowledge that Paul "throws the 10 commandments under the bus" when he clearly states that the law against coveting only made him more covetous.


I have not read his stuff, but I will tell you what I believe Scripture teaches: we must "persist in doing good" so, yes, we can "lost" salvation.

No reading.
It was the auto rental episode.
They had no car for him upon arrival.
He complained and told the clerk
YOU COULD TAKE A RESERVATION...
BUT YOU CAN'T HOLD A RESERVATION.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is from Romans 7, verse 5 and following.

Thanks.

Romans 7:9 speaks exactly to what I just posted about a new believer.
Paul states that the law is not evil....the sin in his heart, that the law showed him was there, is what is evil. Verse 7.

Paul is proving that we need laws.
If there was no law that said not to have evil desires...HOW would one ever know that having evil desires is a sin? Verse 7b If there was no law to break there would be no sinning...but God wanted us to know we were sinning...so this is one of the reasons He gave the law to the israeilites....I speak of the Moral Law since that is everlasting. As you will note,,,evil in the heart is moral matter.

Paul always spoke of morality....
He said we do not have to follow customs of days of worship, what food to eat, etc.
But he always said we are to be moral persons and follow the Moral Law.

 

[JLB]

The Law of Moses contains 613 rules and ordinances and commands.
It also includes 10 commandments (some follow only 9).
THIS is not called the Law of Moses....
it's called the Law of God
or
The 10 Commandments
or The Moral Law

Please post the scriptures that say the law of Moses is called the law of God, or the Moral law.



JLB

 

[JLB]

HOW do you think "His Commandments" differ from the 10?

No command from the Lord to observe the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses.


Here is what the law of Moses required concerning the Sabbath.


Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30





And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15




Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:1-3



Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36



‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10



Do you believe the Church is to observe these Sabbath requirements today, under the New Covenant?




JLB

 

[JLB]

When James mentions being doers of the Word,,,,he means the Word of God.
Jesus spoke the Word of God and Prophets also,,,,the Word of God was also written, as in the O.T.

By saying doers of the word, does James mean this —




And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10



or this



Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36



This is what the law of Moses required.



Is this a practice that Jesus or James taught the Church to practice?




JLB

 

[JLB]

His commandments, not the Law of Moses.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Paul always spoke of morality....
He said we do not have to follow customs of days of worship, what food to eat, etc.
But he always said we are to be moral persons and follow the Moral Law.

Nor the Sabbath ordinances as the law of Moses required.

It’s the etc... that needs to be understood and why.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Please post the scriptures that say the law of Moses is called the law of God, or the Moral law.



JLB

That's not what I said.
The Law of Moses CONTAINS the 10 commandments.
The ones that were written in stone.
The other ordinances/rules were NOT written in stone.

And if you're looking for a bible verse, I won't be supplying one.
Not everything I know comes from a verse. That doesn't mean it's not biblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

No command from the Lord to observe the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses.


Here is what the law of Moses required concerning the Sabbath.


Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30





And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15




Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:1-3



Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36



‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10



Do you believe the Church is to observe these Sabbath requirements today, under the New Covenant?




JLB

I'm not here to debate the Sabbath.
Originally I was here to describe the difference between fulfill and abolished.
But that seems to have gone awry.

 

[GodsGrace]

By saying doers of the word, does James mean this —




And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10



or this



Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36



This is what the law of Moses required.



Is this a practice that Jesus or James taught the Church to practice?




JLB

The other member simply asked what the Word of God means.
What do YOU believe it means?

 

[GodsGrace]

Nor the Sabbath ordinances as the law of Moses required.

It’s the etc... that needs to be understood and why.



JLB

The ETC is self-understood with the examples.

What day we observe is not a moral question.
What food we eat is not a moral question.

Most persons know what is moral and what is not.
No need to post any more than 2 or 3 examples.

 

[JLB]

That's not what I said.
The Law of Moses CONTAINS the 10 commandments.

Amen.

I believe we all agree that the law of Moses contains the 10 Commandments.


However, the New Covenant is not the law of Moses, and we are under the New Covenant.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm not here to debate the Sabbath.
Originally I was here to describe the difference between fulfill and abolished.
But that seems to have gone awry.

Im not here to debate the Sabbath.

The 10 Commandments contains the requirement to observe the Sabbath in a very specific way, which the New Covenant does not require.


Example:


And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10



Paul teaches us that this was a shadow of things to come, but the substance is Christ.


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17


The New Covenant does not require that the Church must offer two unblemished lambs every Sabbath.



That’s why I promote the idea of keeping “His“ Commandments without saying the “10“ Commandments because it’s not biblical.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Originally I was here to describe the difference between fulfill and abolished.

Jesus fulfilled the things in the law that pointed to Him such as being the Passover Lamb.

He is the Word of God the people rejected.
He is the manna that came down from heaven the people rejected.
He is the High Priest that was chosen by God, that the people rejected.

This things were contained the the Ark of the covenant and were symbols of the people rejecting Christ.


The two tablets of the 10 Commandments
The golden jar of manna
The rod of Aaron that budded

The entire Torah contains hundreds of things that foreshadowed and pointed to the Christ.


For one the term “destroy” is a idiomatic Rabbinical term that means “misinterpret and or misapply“ by adding or taking away words which adds or takes away the meaning of the law.


I don’t usually bring out this point because it’s not understood in today’s culture.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17


Today under the New Covenant, we do not sacrifice animals, or submit to the Levitical Priesthood or keep Sabbath ordinances or ceremonial washings, or feast days, or physical circumcision...


That was required under the law of Moses, not under the New Covenant.


The Abrahamic Covenant is the core covenant that the law of Moses was added to temporarily, until the Seed should come.


The Abrahamic Covenant required Abraham and those who were in Covenant with the Lord, to walk before Him and be blameless.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


Same Lord we are in Covenant with in the New Covenant and the way we learn how to obey Him is to walk with Him and learn directly from Him the way Abraham learned to: by faith.


Not from a list of rules that we can not keep apart from His grace.

Faith and grace, the divine ability to do what the Lord requires of us and comes to us when He speaks to us. He speaks to and communes with us as we draw near to Him, and spend time with Him, showing Him we desire to be with Him, and learn from Him, and desire to hear His voice for the purpose of loving Him and obeying Him as a loving wife desires to please and obey her husband.


IOW, this is how the Lord desires for His people to learn from Him, by partaking from Him as the Tree of Life, not as from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.

I believe we all agree that the law of Moses contains the 10 Commandments.


However, the New Covenant is not the law of Moses, and we are under the New Covenant.



JLB

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Im not here to debate the Sabbath.

The 10 Commandments contains the requirement to observe the Sabbath in a very specific way, which the New Covenant does not require.


Example:


And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10



Paul teaches us that this was a shadow of things to come, but the substance is Christ.


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17


The New Covenant does not require that the Church must offer two unblemished lambs every Sabbath.



That’s why I promote the idea of keeping “His“ Commandments without saying the “10“ Commandments because it’s not biblical.




JLB

Keeping the commandments is biblical.
Because you want to call it something different, does NOT change the fact that the 10 commandments are to be kept by all Christians.

As I've said many times,,,the Moral Law will NEVER be abolished and must be kept.
You also have a problem with the words MORAL LAW, but this is what it's called, whether or not you agree with it.

If you want to debate the 10 becoming the 9,,,I could do that for you right now in one sentence.

Keeping the Sabbath can be removed from the 10 commandments because it is a
CEREMONIAL LAW and NOT a MORAL LAW.

See how easy that was?
Ceremonial Laws have been abolished.
Civil Laws have been abolished.
Moral Law will never be abolished.

However, we must continue to call it the 10 commandments because that is what Moses came down from Mt. Sinai with. We cannot change a reality, but only discuss if all 10 are still in effect.

I think you must know that Sabbath keeping was the SIGN of the Mosaic Covenant.
Since we are not under the New Covenant, the sign has changed and is Communion, although it can be argued that it could be baptism since theologians do not agree 100% on this.
I like Communion because baptism existed even before Christ's death and HE gave this for a remembrance the night before His crucifixion.

If some on this thread refuse to accept that there were different TYPES of law in the Law of Moses,,,well then THEY have a problem speaking about this due to confusion.

I'm not confused.

And I was referring to a different member(s).

 

[Drew]

The Law of Moses contains 613 rules and ordinances and commands.
It also includes 10 commandments (some follow only 9).
THIS is not called the Law of Moses....
it's called the Law of God
or
The 10 Commandments
or The Moral Law

I am aware, as I have shown in my posts, that the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

Where does any scripture writer, or Jesus, use the term "the moral law"?
Where does any scripture writer, or Jesus, ever draw a distinction between the 10 commandments and the rest of the Law of Moses (i.e. in terms that would justify your position that the 10 (or 9) remain in force while the the other 603 (or 604) are done away with?