WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ok I’ll fix it.

Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him. Hebrews 7:9-10


Better?


Surely you must know there is more to covenant relationship than not having sex with animals.




JLB

Okay, I shouldn't have used that last statement as an example.
But too many Christians misunderstand tithes and seem to never get it straight.
I feel that you are a person who should be explaining it so people understand the meaning better.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are released from keeping the entire OT law as an obligation...

Our obligation is to not walk in the flesh:

"12...brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it." - Romans 8:12

Which in turn upholds the righteous requirements of the law--all of them:

"30 ...God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." - Romans 3:31

It's just that some things in the law upheld through faith still need our literal fulfillment, while other things don't, having been fulfilled/completed by the work of Christ. The very thing he said he came to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, by the way Rollo.
About watching Ralph's dogs this weekend.
He said he doesn't need you to do that now.

 

[JLB]

Okay, I shouldn't have used that last statement as an example.
But too many Christians misunderstand tithes and seem to never get it straight.
I feel that you are a person who should be explaining it so people understand the meaning better.

Under the law, the Lord required the children of Israel to tithe a portion of their crops and livestock to support the Levitical Priesthood which had no inheritance of land in the promised land.

Their portion was the Lord Himself.

Loving the Lord meant supporting and giving to the priesthood which represented the Lord Himself.

In the New Testament we are priests.

However, there are those who the Lord taught, His disciples, whom He has has qualified to teach and minister to the people because they followed Him and were taught by Him, and dedicated their lives to serve Him full time, teaching their disciples what He taught them.

The Twelve Apostles were the pattern for this way of ministry.


Notice how they lived dealt with the revenue that came to them from the people.


Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.
And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
Acts 4:32-37

• all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

I’ll stop there for you or others to comment and discuss.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him. Hebrews 7:4-10

Abraham paid tithes.

Abraham paid tithes.
He was supposed to, as were everyone else.
That's part of the O.T. laws.
We are no longer under the O.T. laws that were written by Moses and men.
The only Law we're under is the Law God wrote.....
The law that is part of the New Covenant...
the Moral Law of God.

Jesus said to give joyfully.....
This is GRACE.
He did NOT say to give a 10th.
Joyfully means it could be less, or it could be more.
Giving a 10th is legalism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Under the law, the Lord required the children of Israel to tithe a portion of their crops and livestock to support the Levitical Priesthood which had no inheritance of land in the promised land.

Their portion was the Lord Himself.

Loving the Lord meant supporting and giving to the priesthood which represented the Lord Himself.

In the New Testament we are priests.

However, there are those who the Lord taught, His disciples, whom He has has qualified to teach and minister to the people because they followed Him and were taught by Him, and dedicated their lives to serve Him full time, teaching their disciples what He taught them.

The Twelve Apostles were the pattern for this way of ministry.


Notice how they lived dealt with the revenue that came to them from the people.


Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.
And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
Acts 4:32-37

• all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

I’ll stop there for you or others to comment and discuss.


JLB

The church doesn't help much, does it?
The CC helps more than any other church and they do not ask for a tenth of what I earn.
I don't know many Christians that would sell their house to help out the community.
We're living in different times, don't you think?
We have our dear government now that seems to have taken the place of the church,,,
and thank God for that since Christianity is dwindling.

 

[GodsGrace]

Honestly, is that what you got from his post?

His commandments are about love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


So when he says the Holy Spirit leads us to love our neighbor, that is the law of Christ, which are referred to as His Commandments.


They have been His Commandments Before the foundation of the world and did not originate with Moses, although His Commandments were contained within the law of Moses, because they were are part of the Abrahamic Covenant, and kept by Abraham long before Moses was born.


By saying “10 Commandments“ you are giving the impression we are to keep the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses.


We both know that’s not true.


So why do you call them the “10 Commandments“ ?


His commandments refer to many more than 10.



JLB

Yes, honestly, that's what I got from the post by jaybo ....
Here's what he said:
The terms civil law, ceremonial law, and moral law are artificial divisions that are not found in Scripture.

We are released from keeping the entire OT law as an obligation, although the Holy Spirit will guide us into practicing such a "law" as loving our neighbor as ourselves.

First of all, he speaks of divisions that are not found in scripture.
Just like you do. Whether or not they're found in scripture,,,the Law of Moses is in different categories. This is a fact.

Second, he says we are released FROM THE WHOLE LAW, as an obligation.
This will, of course, include the 10 commandments,,,from which we ARE NOT released but are obligated to keep. Now, if you've jumped the fence, it's news to me - but I will get used to the idea eventually.

Third, I call them the 10 commandments.
Everyone I know calls them the 10 commandments.
This is what they're called in the bible and you do love biblical terms and this is one of them.

I am not allowed to change the word of God and call them the 9 commandments.
I fail to understand why this bothers you so much.
You even had the 10 commandments framed...why didn't you eliminate one of them?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Under the law, the Lord required the children of Israel to tithe a portion of their crops and livestock to support the Levitical Priesthood which had no inheritance of land in the promised land.

Their portion was the Lord Himself.

Loving the Lord meant supporting and giving to the priesthood which represented the Lord Himself.

In the New Testament we are priests.

However, there are those who the Lord taught, His disciples, whom He has has qualified to teach and minister to the people because they followed Him and were taught by Him, and dedicated their lives to serve Him full time, teaching their disciples what He taught them.

The Twelve Apostles were the pattern for this way of ministry.


Notice how they lived dealt with the revenue that came to them from the people.


Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.
And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
Acts 4:32-37

• all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

I’ll stop there for you or others to comment and discuss.


JLB

These men were filled with the Holy Spirit and giving their excess to those in need was probably the best way to show their love to others.

People in those days were not brought up with credit cards, buying cars on credit and being in debt up to their ears by the time they are 25 years of age.
Going to college can be a near lifetime debt to pay off.

Sharing our excess with others is more of a thing for older people such as myself rather than for the young.
But take my church for instance.
They cry for money everyweek.
They own buildings that occupy a near city block in size.
They just bought a new van for $65000 cash.
But what ministries do they have that they give to?
Well, they pay the pastor a big paycheck, his full health insurance for him and his family, and a retirement pension that most people would drool over.
They pay the denomination headquarters a ton of money, and they have fundraisers all year long for anything else that comes along
To my knowledge, we have no poor people who attend our church, we have no ministries to reach out to the poor in our community.
And the biggest thing that goes on in our church is our once a month Thursday morning men's breakfast.

Tithing?
Every dime they collect is called tithing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Honestly, is that what you got from his post?

His commandments are about love.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


So when he says the Holy Spirit leads us to love our neighbor, that is the law of Christ, which are referred to as His Commandments.


They have been His Commandments Before the foundation of the world and did not originate with Moses, although His Commandments were contained within the law of Moses, because they were are part of the Abrahamic Covenant, and kept by Abraham long before Moses was born.


By saying “10 Commandments“ you are giving the impression we are to keep the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses.


We both know that’s not true.


So why do you call them the “10 Commandments“ ?


His commandments refer to many more than 10.



JLB

Plus, I'm tiring of all this lovey dovey stuff.

God is a God of Love.
He is also a JUST God and is also ALMIGHTY and He expects us to obey Him.

 

[stovebolts]

SB,
You break all your own rules of engagement.
Study up on what it means to honor our parents.
Study up on why the commandment is to honor and not LOVE.

Does this mean we are not to love them?
Does honor go beyond love?

And you really should stop telling me I don't understand things.
And that I'm wrong.
Even if Idon't.
And even if I am.

Sorry if I was more direct with you than I should have been. My intent was not to be condescending nor belittling, let alone offend you.

the way I understand scripture is each commandment is weighted and as a whole, they are interconnected. It’s like a big puzzle where the pieces can be interlinked. Even the Pharisees understood that the two greatest commandments were to love God and to love your neighbor. They had the foundation. What they didn’t have was discernment to connect the other commandments properly.

if you look at scripture, men are commanded to love their wives and wives are commanded to respect their husbands. Note that women are not commanded to love their husbands. why? It is because women naturally love their husbands. Loving your husband is a given So when the command to respect their husbands is given, it is assumed that respect will be given through love of the husband because there will be times when a wife feels like her husband does not deserve to be shown respect. Without love as the foundation for respect, the relationship can grow cold.

at Sinai, it is viewed as a marriage ceremony and the vows have already been said. Love is a given and is the foundation all commandments are tied to.

The 10 commandments are built off the two greatest commandments.
1. Love God. The first half of the 10 commandments are how to love God.
2. Love your neighbor. The second half of the commandments show how to love your neighbor.
3. Between loving your neighbor and loving God, is to honor your parents. As you cans see, this commandment is wrapped in love and bridges the two greatest commandments. There are times we may fell that our parents don’t deserve honor, but our love for our parents allows us to remain humble, and honor them. There are also times when we feel God does not deserve to be honored, but our love for God allows us to remain humble, and out of our love for God, we honor him.

so yes, the commandment is to honor your parents and love is not explicitly mentioned in that verse. But if understand the words of Jesus that all the laws and words of the prophets hang off the two greatest commandments, then we understand that the commandment to honor is soaked in love.

i hope this helps you better understand what I failed to articulate earlier and I will be sensitive to how I discuss things with you in future replies.

 

[GodsGrace]

These men were filled with the Holy Spirit and giving their excess to those in need was probably the best way to show their love to others.

People in those days were not brought up with credit cards, buying cars on credit and being in debt up to their ears by the time they are 25 years of age.
Going to college can be a near lifetime debt to pay off.

Sharing our excess with others is more of a thing for older people such as myself rather than for the young.
But take my church for instance.
They cry for money everyweek.
They own buildings that occupy a near city block in size.
They just bought a new van for $65000 cash.
But what ministries do theyt have that they give to?
Well, they pay the pastor a big paycheck, his full health insurance for him and his family, and a retirement pension that most people would drool over.
They pay the denomination headquarters a ton of money, and they have fundraisers all year long for anything else that comes along
To my knowledge, we have no poor people who attend our church, we have no ministries to reach out to the poor in our community.
And the biggest thing that goes on in our church is our once a month Thursday morning men's breakfast.

Tithing?
Every dime they collect is called tithing.

AMEN to that!

 

[stovebolts]

Plus, I'm tiring of all this lovey dovey stuff.

God is a God of Love.
He is also a JUST God and is also ALMIGHTY and He expects us to obey Him.

Scripture says God IS love, and not just a God of love.

a close look at the first few chapters of Romans and we see Gods righteousness is bound in his mercy and grace because of His great love for us. Righteousness without these two elements is not righteousness at all.

likewise, Gods justice is also bound in mercy and grace because of His great love for us. If justice does not contain these two elements, it is not justice.

why do you say you tire of all this lovey doves stuff? God has poured... no, God had lavished his love on us, and personally, I am thankful.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We don't divy up the law in regard to fulfillment. ALL of it is fulfilled through our faith in Christ. Some of it is fulfilled by Christ himself, the rest is fulfilled by us when we act justly and rightly in faith. But ALL is fulfilled in Christ through our faith.

The only division of law that we are to entertain is discerning what remains of all of the law for us to literally fulfill and what is already fulfilled/completed by Christ and does not need our literal fulfillment.

The church makes this too complicated. It's not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just take a law, any law, and examine it thoughtfully in light of scripture to discern if their remains any obligation to literally keep it, or if it has already been satisfied through the work of Christ on the cross.

This is what the law requires:

19Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. - Leviticus 24:19

What do we do with it?

 

[stovebolts]

Just take a law, any law, and examine it thoughtfully in light of scripture to discern if their remains any obligation to literally keep it, or if it has already been satisfied through the work of Christ on the cross.

This is what the law requires:

19Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. - Leviticus 24:19

What do we do with it?

Hi Jethro,
rarely are the requirements upheld in a black and white manner. They always require discernment. For example, it was forbidden for the shew bread to be eaten by anyone except the priests in the order of Aaron. However, David and his men ate of the bread and none were found guilty of breaking Gods commandments because the laws are weighted. In the same manner, circumsission could occur during a Sabbath, and many other things were allowed on Passover, like kindling a fire, even if Passover occurred on a Sabbath.

in regard to the passage you cited, mercy is always an option and the commandment teaches that the punishment can not exceed the offense. In other words, the passage teaches that there are limits when we administer justice. for example, you can not be put to death if you knock somebodies tooth out. Furthermore, intent needs to be looked at. If it was an accident, it’s not a requirement that a tooth be taken for a tooth. Perhaps the offender pays medical expenses. It really all depends.

 

[JLB]

The terms civil law, ceremonial law, and moral law are artificial divisions that are not found in Scripture.

I agree 100 percent.

We don’t get to create man made divisions in the law.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

19Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. - Leviticus 24:19

What do we do with it?

...in regard to the passage you cited, mercy is always an option...

...the passage teaches that there are limits when we administer justice. for example, you can not be put to death if you knock somebodies tooth out. Furthermore, intent needs to be looked at. If it was an accident, it’s not a requirement that a tooth be taken for a tooth. Perhaps the offender pays medical expenses. It really all depends.

Can the law of 'eye for eye' be fulfilled without us literally keeping it? For surely we are all in agreement that we do not want to go around exacting revenge for the injuries we have received, yet we know that Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law leaving it unfulfilled.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree 100 percent.

We don’t get to create man made divisions in the law.




JLB

We can create divisions in the law insofar as recognizing that laws govern different areas of life. And divisions can be recognized in regard to what is to be literally fulfilled by us and what is already fulfilled by the Lord.

But we can not divide it up in regard to what is law and what is not (outside of the lawful Rabbinical judgements provided for us by the Bible itself, i.e. multiple wives, divorce). The law stands as an undivided entity that is upheld in this New Covenant by our faith.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Just take a law, any law, and examine it thoughtfully in light of scripture to discern if their remains any obligation to literally keep it, or if it has already been satisfied through the work of Christ on the cross.

This is what the law requires:

19Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. - Leviticus 24:19

What do we do with it?

Love fulfills the law.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Jethro,
rarely are the requirements upheld in a black and white manner. They always require discernment. For example, it was forbidden for the shew bread to be eaten by anyone except the priests in the order of Aaron. However, David and his men ate of the bread and none were found guilty of breaking Gods commandments because the laws are weighted. In the same manner, circumsission could occur during a Sabbath, and many other things were allowed on Passover, like kindling a fire, even if Passover occurred on a Sabbath.

in regard to the passage you cited, mercy is always an option and the commandment teaches that the punishment can not exceed the offense. In other words, the passage teaches that there are limits when we administer justice. for example, you can not be put to death if you knock somebodies tooth out. Furthermore, intent needs to be looked at. If it was an accident, it’s not a requirement that a tooth be taken for a tooth. Perhaps the offender pays medical expenses. It really all depends.

That's all quoted in the Talmud.
Yes, the Talmud is a worthy book to read when discussing the law.