WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[LovethroughDove]

Love fulfills the law.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

True and he fulfilled it and didn't fail.

 

[stovebolts]

Can the law of 'eye for eye' be fulfilled without us literally keeping it? For surely we are all in agreement that we do not want to go around exacting revenge for the injuries we have received, yet we know that Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law leaving it unfulfilled.

One must properly understand Justice before they are able to administer Justice.
in Mathew 5-7 Jesus repeats the phrase, “You have heard it said, but I say”. Jesus tells us how to properly fulfill that law, or we can harden our hearts and continue with the teachings of men.
Jesus tells us the proper interpretation of that law with an example how it is to be fulfilled. Please see Matthew 5:38-42 and bonus in verses from 43-48. We all are capable of fulfilling that law.

 

[stovebolts]

That's all quoted in the Talmud.
Yes, the Talmud is a worthy book to read when discussing the law.

As you know, the Talmud is an unbridled collection of Jewish thought. I view it as one huge library and it’s not biased toward any single Jewish theology.
that being said, what I wrote in my earlier post did not source from the Talmud that I’m aware of and if it it did, I’ve no idea where it may be.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Plus, I'm tiring of all this lovey dovey stuff.

God is a God of Love.
He is also a JUST God and is also ALMIGHTY and He expects us to obey Him.

Hi wondering. Let me say that I appreciate your knowledge and how you want to promote God's justice, because that is absolute fact. Jesus even says that there are very few who find the narrow gate. The narrow gate being who he really is. Jesus is a supernatural kind of love that people don't understand and actually don't want to understand because they like how they do things.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

With regards to the law......No, I don't live by the law because I am a lawbreaker. I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. It is not I who is righteous, but Christ in me.

Galatians 2:17-21 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by the faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

 

[JLB]

That's all quoted in the Talmud.
Yes, the Talmud is a worthy book to read when discussing the law.

What does the Talmud say about Jesus of Nazareth?

 

[stovebolts]

What does the Talmud say about Jesus of Nazareth?

Rollo Tamasi . Please do not try and discredit my previous post by associating it with a source I did not use to make my comments.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

.

One must properly understand Justice before they are able to administer Justice.
in Mathew 5-7 Jesus repeats the phrase, “You have heard it said, but I say”. Jesus tells us how to properly fulfill that law, or we can harden our hearts and continue with the teachings of men.
Jesus tells us the proper interpretation of that law with an example how it is to be fulfilled. Please see Matthew 5:38-42 and bonus in verses from 43-48. We all are capable of fulfilling that law.

Jesus is telling us to literally not keep the law of 'eye for eye'.

I'm bringing this particular law up so we can thoughtfully examine it to see if it's a law that remains for us to literally keep, or if it's a law that finds it's fulfillment in Christ. We can do this with any law in the law of Moses. And we should.

Since Christ is telling us to not keep the law of 'eye for eye' it must find it's fulfillment in Christ, for he did not come to destroy the law. Just ignoring it would be destroying it. It must have it's fulfillment in the work of Christ somehow.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you still look to Jesus to cover your sins?

Why do you ask?
Is there someone else?

NO

You say NO, we are NOT required to obey the 10 commandments.
Some new Christian reading along might be very happy.

But I'm very unhappy because I know that God demands --- demands ---
obedience from the time of the Garden right thru to today.

Unless you can explain why not.

THE TOP FIVE VERSES ON OBEDIENCE:

1. “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.” James 1:22
2. “Jesus replied, ‘Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching.'” John 14:23
3. “The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.” 1 John 2:17
4. “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.” Matthew 7:24
5. “Whoever heeds discipline shows the way to life, but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.” Proverbs 10:17

source: https://www.dungyfamilyfoundation.org/top-5-bible-verses-on-obedience/


I love Matthew 7:24 and there are so many others....

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry if I was more direct with you than I should have been. My intent was not to be condescending nor belittling, let alone offend you.

the way I understand scripture is each commandment is weighted and as a whole, they are interconnected. It’s like a big puzzle where the pieces can be interlinked. Even the Pharisees understood that the two greatest commandments were to love God and to love your neighbor. They had the foundation. What they didn’t have was discernment to connect the other commandments properly.

if you look at scripture, men are commanded to love their wives and wives are commanded to respect their husbands. Note that women are not commanded to love their husbands. why? It is because women naturally love their husbands. Loving your husband is a given So when the command to respect their husbands is given, it is assumed that respect will be given through love of the husband because there will be times when a wife feels like her husband does not deserve to be shown respect. Without love as the foundation for respect, the relationship can grow cold.

at Sinai, it is viewed as a marriage ceremony and the vows have already been said. Love is a given and is the foundation all commandments are tied to.

The 10 commandments are built off the two greatest commandments.
1. Love God. The first half of the 10 commandments are how to love God.
2. Love your neighbor. The second half of the commandments show how to love your neighbor.
3. Between loving your neighbor and loving God, is to honor your parents. As you cans see, this commandment is wrapped in love and bridges the two greatest commandments. There are times we may fell that our parents don’t deserve honor, but our love for our parents allows us to remain humble, and honor them. There are also times when we feel God does not deserve to be honored, but our love for God allows us to remain humble, and out of our love for God, we honor him.

so yes, the commandment is to honor your parents and love is not explicitly mentioned in that verse. But if understand the words of Jesus that all the laws and words of the prophets hang off the two greatest commandments, then we understand that the commandment to honor is soaked in love.

i hope this helps you better understand what I failed to articulate earlier and I will be sensitive to how I discuss things with you in future replies.

No harm done.
But I understand a lot more than it may seem.
I don't come here to give lessons to anyone or to teach, as some do.
So my statements tend to be short , also due to a matter of time available.

As to honoring our parents....

"Honor Your Father and Mother" - Exodus 20:12 Meaning & Importance

"Honor Your Mother and Father" is Bible verse mentioned twice in the Old Testament (most well known is Exodus 20:20) and four times in the New Testament. Whether we are children or adults, we are to honor our parents. Children are taught to honor their parents by the basic lesson of discipline...

www.biblestudytools.com

Honor father and mother - keep the fourth commandment

As the Lord your God has commanded you, honor your father and mother with deeds and words. Put them first, that his blessing may descend upon you

digilander.libero.it

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture says God IS love, and not just a God of love.

a close look at the first few chapters of Romans and we see Gods righteousness is bound in his mercy and grace because of His great love for us. Righteousness without these two elements is not righteousness at all.

likewise, Gods justice is also bound in mercy and grace because of His great love for us. If justice does not contain these two elements, it is not justice.

why do you say you tire of all this lovey doves stuff? God has poured... no, God had lavished his love on us, and personally, I am thankful.

Yes, I agree, 1 John 4:8

But it seems to me that some are relying too much on God's love and forgetting that He will also be a just God.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life...
but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life.....
but the wrath of God abides on him.

Does that sound like a God that will all pass by because He loves us?
I really think we're losing sight of the fact that God is an Almighty God.
He's not our buddy.

Jesus is God.
And Jesus showed us the way to God.
And He taught many things and many ways that we are to love God and obey Him.
WHILE YOU HAVE THE LIGHT, BELIEVE IN THE LIGHT, IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY BECOME SONS OF LIGHT.
John 12:36

Jesus said we are to BECOME the sons of light.
How do we become the sons of light?
HE WHO HAS MY COMMANDMENTS AND KEEPS THEM, HE IT IS WHO LOVES ME AND HE WILL BE LOVED BY MY FATHER.
John 14:21

Who does the Father love?
Those who keep the commandments of Jesus....that go even beyond the 10.

So God is love...that doesn't mean we do not obey Him.
That's what I mean by lovey dovey...
I'm not saying YOU feel this way.

 

[JLB]

Rollo Tamasi . Please do not try and discredit my previous post by associating it with a source I did not use to make my comments.

I’m not trying to discredit anyone’s post.

Just pointing out that there is a balance to learning from extra biblical sources.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus is telling us to literally not keep the law of 'eye for eye'.

To properly discuss this, we need to take into account the culture. Mathew was originally written in Aramaic. Mathew was a Jew and he was writing to Jews. In Mathew 5, Jesus is teaching a crowd of Jews who were interested in his teachings.

as with any culture, there are different major schools of thought and in the time of Jesus, the two major schools of thought that shaped Israel were the school of Hillel and the school of Shamia.

Jesus is entering a cultural discussion that was already being talked about. The discussion is not wether to literally keep the commandment of an eye for an eye. The discussion was based on the principals I’ve outlined earlier. Jesus is teaching his audience how to fulfill those laws.

Since Christ is telling us to not keep the law of 'eye for eye' it must find it's fulfillment in Christ, for he did not come to destroy the law. Just ignoring it would be destroying it. It must have it's fulfillment in the work of Christ somehow.

I don’t agree with the Same conclusion your coming up with. Jesus is teaching us how to fulfill that law. It’s a law all of us are capable of fulfilling. Jesus sums this up in the closing of his sermon found in Matthew7:24-27

since Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience, we need to hear what they heard. In regard to abolishing aka destroying the law, that is not the same as the law being obsolete due to the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Within the context of Matthew 5, abolish simply means that if one grossly misinterprets the command, it will be lived out in a way that is counter to its intent, and we have to take weights into consideration. The Pharisees had much right, but their weighting was wrong. Other things they misinterpreted so badly, they abolished the commandments completely.

in summary, Jesus is basically saying he is giving the proper interpretation and application to fulfill those laws that were being discussed with their culture. It’s interesting to note that Hillel is closer to Jesus teachings than Shamia, with the exception of divorce, where Jesus takes a stronger stance on divorce than Shamia.

 

[stovebolts]

I’m not trying to discredit anyone’s post.

Just pointing out that there is a balance to learning from extra biblical sources.


JLB

And what I’m making clear is this. I am not pulling out of the Talmud and I won’t be colored as guilty by association. That’s dirty.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To properly discuss this, we need to take into account the culture. Mathew was originally written in Aramaic. Mathew was a Jew and he was writing to Jews. In Mathew 5, Jesus is teaching a crowd of Jews who were interested in his teachings.

as with any culture, there are different major schools of thought and in the time of Jesus, the two major schools of thought that shaped Israel were the school of Hillel and the school of Shamia.

Jesus is entering a cultural discussion that was already being talked about. The discussion is not wether to literally keep the commandment of an eye for an eye. The discussion was based on the principals I’ve outlined earlier. Jesus is teaching his audience how to fulfill those laws.



I don’t agree with the Same conclusion your coming up with. Jesus is teaching us how to fulfill that law. It’s a law all of us are capable of fulfilling. Jesus sums this up in the closing of his sermon found in Matthew7:24-27

since Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience, we need to hear what they heard. In regard to abolishing aka destroying the law, that is not the same as the law being obsolete due to the new covenant in Christ’s blood. Within the context of Matthew 5, abolish simply means that if one grossly misinterprets the command, it will be lived out in a way that is counter to its intent, and we have to take weights into consideration. The Pharisees had much right, but their weighting was wrong. Other things they misinterpreted so badly, they abolished the commandments completely.

in summary, Jesus is basically saying he is giving the proper interpretation and application to fulfill those laws that were being discussed with their culture. It’s interesting to note that Hillel is closer to Jesus teachings than Shamia, with the exception of divorce, where Jesus takes a stronger stance on divorce than Shamia.

The righteousness of the law demands that you pay eye for eye, burn for burn, life for life, etc.

To satisfy that debt of law, Christ is the eye for eye, life for life, limb for limb that is owed according to the law. We don't have to literally keep the requirements of that law because he has fulfilled it himself.

It's an example of a law that we don't have to literally keep because Christ has fulfilled it already on our behalf. We satisfy the requirement of that law and uphold it by having faith in Christ's fulfillment of that law.

 

[GodsGrace]

We can create divisions in the law insofar as recognizing that laws govern different areas of life. And divisions can be recognized in regard to what is to be literally fulfilled by us and what is already fulfilled by the Lord.

But we can not divide it up in regard to what is law and what is not (outside of the lawful Rabbinical judgements provided for us by the Bible itself, i.e. multiple wives, divorce). The law stands as an undivided entity that is upheld in this New Covenant by our faith.

I agree with your first paragraph and that's what the divisions are for.
Then when I read the second paragraph I get confused and it sounds like you're saying something different.

I'm going to link something.
Tell me if you agree....
I'm linking them because they explain very well my understanding of the Old Testament Laws...taught to me by two different churches. I did not link them because I'm familiar with the ministries....

The Division of Old Testament Law

Are believers in Christ required to obey any part of Old Testament law? Both Dispensationalists and proponents of New Covenant Theology, or Progressive Covenantalism, as one version of it has come to be called, simply say “no.” In their view, the laws of the Old Testament are fulfilled and...

founders.org

What are the main divisions of the Old Testament Law?

The Old Testament law has been categorized into three main divisions, often called the "three-fold division of the law": the civil, ceremonial, and moral.

carm.org

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The righteousness of the law demands that you pay eye for eye, burn for burn, life for life, etc.

To satisfy that debt of law, Christ is the eye for eye, life for life, limb for limb that is owed according to the law. We don't have to literally keep the requirements of that law because he has fulfilled it himself.

It's an example of a law that we don't have to literally keep because Christ has fulfilled it already on our behalf. We satisfy the requirement of that law and uphold it by having faith in Christ's fulfillment of that law.

If this is too far out there for some, consider that Christ fulfills the law's righteous and just requirement for blood sacrifice that you owe when you sin and makes it so you don't have to literally keep that law of animal sacrifice, yet does not leave that law unfulfilled.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree 100 percent.

We don’t get to create man made divisions in the law.




JLB

They are NOT man-made.
The divisions happen naturally.
If we don't understand the divisions....
HOW do we understand which ones we are still to keep?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering. Let me say that I appreciate your knowledge and how you want to promote God's justice, because that is absolute fact. Jesus even says that there are very few who find the narrow gate. The narrow gate being who he really is. Jesus is a supernatural kind of love that people don't understand and actually don't want to understand because they like how they do things.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

With regards to the law......No, I don't live by the law because I am a lawbreaker. I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. It is not I who is righteous, but Christ in me.

Galatians 2:17-21 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by the faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Agreed!
Please read my post no. 610 to StoveBolts

Let me just say that if we love Jesus and follow Him as disciples, which means that we learn from our teacher...then we ARE following the law....God's law.

We are, however, all law-breakers and cannot be saved by following laws.
FAITH is what saves.
Faith in Jesus makes us obedient.
Jesus said if we love Him we will keep His commandments.
John 14:15

But it happens naturally and we do not need a list.

 

[stovebolts]

The righteousness of the law demands that you pay eye for eye, burn for burn, life for life, etc.

You have heard that said, but we know what Jesus said about how to live out that law.

Matthew 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

verse 40 comes from Exodus 22:26-27 and speaks directly to justice. One owes a debt and is held accountable for said debt. However, mercy must be shown.

To satisfy that debt of law, Christ is the eye for eye, life for life, limb for limb that is owed according to the law. We don't have to literally keep the requirements of that law because he has fulfilled it himself.

Jesus says, Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus also said, John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I know Where you are trying to go with your point, and I am in agreement with the spirit of your posts. Basically, we agree with the big idea, but we disagree on how to scriptural get there. I get there through Covenant Theology.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What does the Talmud say about Jesus of Nazareth?

He's the Messiah.
But many refuse to believe it.