WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Adultery would be the Moral Law.

The Moral Law will never be abolished because God is a moral being....
The ceremonial law and the civil law have been ABOLISHED...
they are no longer required to be obeyed.

We no longer have to be stoned to death because we are under the New Covenant and Jesus has done the dying for us,,,,death which was required under the Mosaic Covenant.
We follow the Moral Law because it is good for us....
Under the New Covenant dying for adultery is no longer required.
But it is still profitable to follow the Moral Law.

1 Corinthians chapter 10 is full of mistakes Israelites made that we should not repeat.
Verse 8 says that we are not to act immorally as they did.
The Moral Law is still valid for us today as it was under the Mosaic Covenant.

Christ took the OT law on adultery out of the way and replaced it with His own NT law Matthew 5:27-28. So adultery is still sinful and immoral under the NT as it was under the OT.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree, and politely suggest that while it may be tempting to carve up the Law into categories, I see no actual Biblical basis for so doing.

I agree.

Paul did not carve the OT into ceremonial laws and moral laws but spoke of the entire OT law when he spoke of "the law".

 

[GodsGrace]

Don`t understand why you are asking me these questions. Whether I am right or wrong, my view on this is, I think, easy to understand: the entire Law of Moses - all 613 items - is no longer in force. But that certainly does not mean it is ok to murder - we have the indwelling Spirit that tells us this. I take it as self-evident, but perhaps you will disagree, that the Spirit is not telling us to stone anyone.

I think I know where you are coming from - you are saying "if we just 'know' from the Spirit that murder is bad (as the Law also says), how do we not likewise just know that we should still stone?

Well, all I can tell you is my own experience: I am pretty sure I would know that murder is bad even if I never read the Bible. And I am equally sure that we should not be stoning people.

The reason murder is still wrong is because murder is a Moral Law and the moral law will always be in effect.

The reason stoning is no longer accepted is because stoning was the Civil Law and that has been abolished.

Jesus did NOT abolish the entire law of Moses....
He did NOT abolish the Moral Law...
we are still required to follow the Moral Law.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ took the OT law on adultery out of the way and replaced it with His own NT law Matthew 5:27-28. So adultery is still sinful and immoral under the NT as it was under the OT.

Of course.
Because it's part of the Moral Law.

I can't believe I have to argue this.....

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree.

Paul did not carve the OT into ceremonial laws and moral laws but spoke of the entire OT law when he spoke of "the law".

Then please explain why Paul said it was OK to eat food sacrificed if it was for the benefit of the unbeliever....
Paul also said that circumcision was no longer necessary.

But Paul DID uphold the Moral Law...
Romans 13:8-14
8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

 

[GodsGrace]

All of the OT law was taken out of the way by Christ, Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15. I know of no verse that says Christ just took away some of the OT law.

BTW,,,Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 does not support your view.

 

[Drew]

The reason murder is still wrong is because murder is a Moral Law and the moral law will always be in effect.

I think this is a circular argument in the sense that you are simply assuming the very thing you need to make a case for - that the Moral Law is still in effect. And the Bible never draws distinctions between one part of the Law and another - that is something you are super-imposing on the text.

Here is where I think the problem lies: you seem to not accept that we can "know" that murder is wrong without having a Law to tell us that this is the case. But there are no laws against many things, and we still know they are wrong.

We are still required to not murder, but not because it is in the Law.

 

[for_his_glory]

Christ brought the OT to an end NOT by destruction of it but by fulfillment of it There is a difference.

We are not bound by any of the OT law. Therefore adultery is wrong for us today NOT because the OT law says it is wrong but because Christ, His NT says it is wrong. Matthew 5:27-28. Christ went even further than the OT law forbidding not just the physcial act of adultery as the OT law did but condemned lust in the heart as adultery.

Actually it was man that gave the name OT and NT as dividing one from the other, but the Bible is whole from in the beginning in Genesis 1:1 to The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen in Rev 22:21. God gave to the Prophets what to speak and write just as God gave to Jesus what to speak, John 12:49, 50.

Jesus taught from the OT including the law. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. We are still to follow all the moral laws as we continue to walk in the greatest commandment of love.



Which Old Testament Book Did Jesus Quote From
blog.biblia.com

Jesus quoted from:
Exodus 3:6.............Matthew 22:32; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37
20:12-16.................Matthew 15:14; 19:18, 19; Mark 7:10; 10:19; Luke 18:20
21:24......................Matthew 5:38


Isaiah 6:9-10.........Matthew 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10
56:7.......................Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:17; Luke 19:46
29:13.....................Matthew 15:8, 9; Mark 7:6, 7
5:1.........................Matthew 21:33; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9
53:12.....................Luke 22:37
54:13.....................John 6:45
61:1, 2...................Matthew 11:5; Luke 4:18, 19; 7:22

Deuteronomy
6:5........................Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:29-33; Luke 10:27
24:1-3...................Matthew 5:31; 19:7; Mark 10:4
19:15....................Matthew 4:4, 7, 10; Luke 4:4, 8, 12

Psalms
82:2; 110:1...........Matthew 21:21:16; 22:44; Mark 12:36; 14:62; Luke 20:42, 43
22:1......................Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34
31:5......................Luke 23:46
35:19; 69:4..........John 15:25
41:9.....................John 13:18
78:24...................John 6:31
82:6.....................John 10:34
110:1...................Matthew 26:64
118:22, 23...........Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17
118:26.................Matthew 23:39; Luke 13:35

If you go to that website it will give you more greater detail

 

[GodsGrace]

I think this is a circular argument in the sense that you are simply assuming the very thing you need to make a case for - that the Moral Law is still in effect. And the Bible never draws distinctions between one part of the Law and another - that is something you are super-imposing on the text.

Here is where I think the problem lies: you seem to not accept that we can "know" that murder is wrong without having a Law to tell us that this is the case. But there are no laws against many things, and we still know they are wrong.

We are still required to not murder, but not because it is in the Law.

Drew,,,
The problem is that the entire bible has been studied and it has been noted that the Laws were broken up into categories.

I don't know if a link would help....

What are the main divisions of the Old Testament Law?

The Old Testament law has been categorized into three main divisions, often called the "three-fold division of the law": the civil, ceremonial, and moral.

carm.org

Three Old Testament Law Categories - Ceremonial - Civil - Moral

The Old Testament Law focuses on action, but God's promise to Abraham was through faith. There are three categories of the Old Covenant.; Ceremonial, Civil, Moral.

www.trusting-in-jesus.com

The Division of Old Testament Law

Are believers in Christ required to obey any part of Old Testament law? Both Dispensationalists and proponents of New Covenant Theology, or Progressive Covenantalism, as one version of it has come to be called, simply say “no.” In their view, the laws of the Old Testament are fulfilled and...

founders.org

 

[GodsGrace]

All of the OT law was taken out of the way by Christ, Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15. I know of no verse that says Christ just took away some of the OT law.

I just posted to Drew.
You also might be interested in reading the following in regards to Ephesians 2:15.
It explains well why your reference to Ephesians 2:15 does not support your view, which I had mentioned to you already. It's toward the end.

The Division of Old Testament Law

Are believers in Christ required to obey any part of Old Testament law? Both Dispensationalists and proponents of New Covenant Theology, or Progressive Covenantalism, as one version of it has come to be called, simply say “no.” In their view, the laws of the Old Testament are fulfilled and...

founders.org

 

[for_his_glory]

There are 613 Levitcal laws God gave to Moses. Not every law is for every person other than the moral laws. Some laws were written particular for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. Then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow today that fall under the greatest commandment of love.

Here is the list of the moral laws within the 613 laws that still exist until the return of Christ.

prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood. The poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family. Forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants. Vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures. Injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws. Prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Drew,,,
The problem is that the entire bible has been studied and it has been noted that the Laws were broken up into categories.

I don't know if a link would help....

What are the main divisions of the Old Testament Law?

The Old Testament law has been categorized into three main divisions, often called the "three-fold division of the law": the civil, ceremonial, and moral.

carm.org

Three Old Testament Law Categories - Ceremonial - Civil - Moral

The Old Testament Law focuses on action, but God's promise to Abraham was through faith. There are three categories of the Old Covenant.; Ceremonial, Civil, Moral.

www.trusting-in-jesus.com

The Division of Old Testament Law

Are believers in Christ required to obey any part of Old Testament law? Both Dispensationalists and proponents of New Covenant Theology, or Progressive Covenantalism, as one version of it has come to be called, simply say “no.” In their view, the laws of the Old Testament are fulfilled and...

founders.org

If you go to Judaism 101 and click on Deeds you will find all 613 Mitzvot (commandments) broken down in 34 different categories.

 

[JLB]

All of the OT law was taken out of the way by Christ, Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15. I know of no verse that says Christ just took away some of the OT law.

The law of Christ is the law that governs the New Covenant.

They are embodied in His Commandments and Doctrine and Gospel.

His Gospel, His Commandments and His doctrine are The Truth.

Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the Truth.

You can find these throughout the New Testament, in which His Apostles taught.

• “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Here are a few:


“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22



“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:27-30


“Furthermore it has been said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Matthew 5:31-32


“You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:43-45



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9





JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree.

Paul did not carve the OT into ceremonial laws and moral laws but spoke of the entire OT law when he spoke of "the law".

The entire law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

Drew,,,
The problem is that the entire bible has been studied and it has been noted that the Laws were broken up into categories.

It seems to me that you are implicitly conceding that there is no Biblical basis for such categories. If so, the fact that people have come up with these categories on their own is not really evidence that they are right.

Remember: Paul never draws the distinctions you are advocating.

And even if there are such distinctions, on precisely what basis do you decide that certain categories are to be retained and others set aside?

 

[Drew]

About this issue of Jesus teaching from the OT and, in fact, advocating compliance to the Law of Moses. I know this seems like a compelling argument that the Law remains in force. However, we need to concede that Jesus could have believed that while the Law remained in force, it would end with His death and resurrection.

In fact, there is a compelling hint that this is so. Remember in Matthew where Jesus says the law will remain in force 'until all is accomplished'? Well, what does Jesus declare as He as dies on the cross?

"It is finished".

 

[Edward]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure that I understand the debate here? On one hand, the technicality of whether or not the Law is in force or not after Jesus is totally moot. Who wouldn't want to be sure to behave and not violate any of the 10 Commandments after having been born again, born of a desire to please the Lord?

On the other hand...Jesus made it quite clear that we have only 2 important commandments to follow now:

Luke 10:27-28
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.../

If you ponder that, it covers a LOT of ground and the fact is, if you keep these 2 commandments then you will naturally never violate any of the 10 commandments. So to me, that makes this debate moot.

 

[Drew]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure that I understand the debate here? On one hand, the technicality of whether or not the Law is in force or not after Jesus is totally moot. Who wouldn't want to be sure to behave and not violate any of the 10 Commandments after having been born again, born of a desire to please the Lord?

I agree, and concede that as far as moral comportment of the believer is concerned, the debate is, and I like your word, "moot". As long as no one is saying we should stone adulterers as the Law of Moses requires, of course.

There is a sense, however, in which it may matter. I suggest that to properly grasp the grand redemption narrative, one needs to understand these things:

- God chose Israel as the means to deal with the fall of Adam;
- The Law of Moses was what marked out Israel as distinct;
- Israel proved faithless, and Jesus took on her role of dealing with Adamic sin.
- Since Jesus did Israel's job, the Israel project is now over
- Accordingly, the Law of Moses - which marked out Israel in the first place - can be set aside.

Now I have said a lot here that people may object to - fair enough. But if you fail to understand that the Law of Moses has been set aside, you may fail to grasp the whole narrative. And that may have some practical consequences, although I cannot name them.

But your main point is spot on - the debate we are having has no direct relevance to how we live morally.

 

[JLB]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure that I understand the debate here? On one hand, the technicality of whether or not the Law is in force or not after Jesus is totally moot. Who wouldn't want to be sure to behave and not violate any of the 10 Commandments after having been born again, born of a desire to please the Lord?

On the other hand...Jesus made it quite clear that we have only 2 important commandments to follow now:

Luke 10:27-28
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.../

If you ponder that, it covers a LOT of ground and the fact is, if you keep these 2 commandments then you will naturally never violate any of the 10 commandments. So to me, that makes this debate moot.

The misunderstanding seems to stem from the idea that His Commandments and Laws originated with the law of Moses.

The 10 Commandments Is not in and of itself the law of Moses.


Murder
Lying
Covetousness
Sexual Immorality

We’re all sin before Moses was ever born.


So when the law of Moses was abolished, it certainly didn’t abolish His Commandments.

I say Commandments before there are many more than just the 10.

Also, observing the Sabbath, as the law of Moses required is not applicable to the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Don`t understand why you are asking me these questions. Whether I am right or wrong, my view on this is, I think, easy to understand: the entire Law of Moses - all 613 items - is no longer in force. But that certainly does not mean it is ok to murder - we have the indwelling Spirit that tells us this. I take it as self-evident, but perhaps you will disagree, that the Spirit is not telling us to stone anyone.

I think I know where you are coming from - you are saying "if we just 'know' from the Spirit that murder is bad (as the Law also says), how do we not likewise just know that we should still stone?

Well, all I can tell you is my own experience: I am pretty sure I would know that murder is bad even if I never read the Bible. And I am equally sure that we should not be stoning people.

I ask questions so you could think about it and answer.

If the entire law of Moses is no longer in force....
then WHY is murder wrong?