Water Baptism..Irrelevant Ritual?

[JayR]

The Spirit is given before water baptism, and being dunked in water doesn't cleanse us from sin, as 1 Peter 3 states. If it did, then why are all of these preists defiling little children? Because they don't have the Spirit of God, and the catholic idea of baptism is heresy.

 

[stovebolts]

Read my last post. The Spirit is given before baptism.

In the Case of John the Baptist, he was a prophet sent before the Christ. As far as the household of Cornelius, this was to show Peter and the rest of the Jews that salvation was universal, it was for ALL nations, not just the Jews as was previously thought. If you think this not the case, then why did God send Peter the dream that he sent him? To use this verse the way you are using it is to miss the bigger picture that God is flexible, and that he does things to teach us His ways. Thus, when the Catholics say that there will be muslims etc in heaven, I have to agree.

As far as the eunuch, where does it say that he recieved the Holy Spirit before baptism?

As far as the eunuch believing with all of his heart before baptism, this is normative.

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Faith is never idle... it always calls for action.

As far as 1 Peter 1:3, he makes it clear that baptism is NOT a work of man, it is the work of God.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Only God has the power to resurrect the dead... not man, nor the work of men,.

Again, to reduce baptism to a mere symbol, is to miss God's grace... it's really that simple.

Ephesians 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...why are all of these preists defiling little children? Because they don't have the Spirit of God, and the catholic idea of baptism is heresy.

Ah, I see. When you cannot refute a post, you throw in a little Catholic-Priest-bashing, eh? That's usually how it winds up with Fundamentalists: Your weak apologia is followed up with a smear.

The problems in the priesthood have nothing to do with the Catholic teaching on Baptism: They have to do with one thing - SIN. I'm a sinner, you're a sinner, the priests are sinners, the pope is a sinner. St. Peter walked with Christ for three years hearing everything He taught, and still cut off a guys ear and denied Christ three times. So what's your point? That men are sinners? Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa.

I would appreciate it if you could refrain from underhanded slurs.

 

[JayR]

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

You seem to be missing the important point in this text. Water baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does that. Water baptism is, as this passage clearly states, the answer of a good conscience toward God.

I recieved the Holy Spirit before I was baptized. I'm not saying baptism isn't a work of grace, the baptism of a Spirit filled believer is a work of grace, or else they wouldn't do it, but being dunked in a pool doesn't wash us of our sins. 1 Peter says that clearly.

 

[stovebolts]

Ah, I see. When you cannot refute a post, you throw in a little Catholic-Priest-bashing, eh? That's usually how it winds up with Fundamentalists: Your weak apologia is followed up with a smear.

That's also normative :-D

 

[Devekut]

Okay everyone...

I do not think it was Handy's intention to turn this into a Catholic/Protestant debate on sacramentality.

There's plenty of room for discussing these Catholic/ Protestant differences in the RCC discussion forum or debate forum.

Let's keep this discussion more general and focus on archetypes proposal that baptism is an irrevelant ritual. I think many Protestants and Catholics here can consider what we share regarding such a proposal rather than simply diving into more specific doctrinal differences.


I, personally, feel that Archetype's position is anti-biblical.

 

[JayR]

The fact that those catholic preists are lost isn't a slur, it's reality. I didn't make them do it, they did it themselves. Regenerated born again believers don't slip, fall, and sodomize little children. That is a horrendous work of Satan done by one of his own. A good tree cannot bear horrendously disgusting fruit my friend.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation (Cf. Jn 3:5). He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them (Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5). Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament(Cf. Mk 16:16). The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit."

 

[stovebolts]

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

You seem to be missing the important point in this text. Water baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does that. Water baptism is, as this passage clearly states, the answer of a good conscience toward God.

I recieved the Holy Spirit before I was baptized. I'm not saying baptism isn't a work of grace, the baptism of a Spirit filled believer is a work of grace, or else they wouldn't do it, but being dunked in a pool doesn't wash us of our sins. 1 Peter says that clearly.

errr.. I think were looking at this passage with two different lenses.

The text clearly states, "even baptism doth also now save us ". Remember, this is Peter writing, the same one who exclaimed to the houshold of Cornelius in Acts 10. I believe the point Peter is trying to make here is this. Baptism is not a work of man, it's the work of God. When one is baptised, it requires a good conscience toward God. In other words, baptism is more than a rite of passage. For crying out lous, the religious teachers of the day only looked at the letter of the law, and not the purpose. Hence, they lost the real purpose why they did the rites and rituals that God commanded them to do.

When we look at baptism with the same lense that the teachers that Christ opposed looked at the rites and rituals commanded by God, then the rites and rituals do not serve God, but rather serve man. Thus, baptism cannot be a work of man and should not be viewed as a mere symbolic rite where one is simply dunked into a pool of water. Again, God's grace infuses our faith and transforms our life. To exclude baptism as a transforming moment in our lives where God's grace is not present, is to say that one does not have a good concience toward God, nor does one have faith in Christ or God. Thus, that type of baptism is not a baptism, but rather a 'dunking' where only man is present.

However, to say that baptism is nothing other than a symbolic gesture, is to deny the presence of God's grace, and I feel this is a grave error when we limit God's grace...

 

[stovebolts]

I do not think it was Handy's intention to turn this into a Catholic/Protestant debate on sacramentality.

I agree. But just to clear up any confusion, a Catholic might consider me a Protestant.

 

[Devekut]

You know, there are designated places in these forums where Catholics and Protestants can abase themselves and look foolish by calling one another names.

The Apologetics and Theology is really not one of them.

thanks Steve, perhaps everyone can take a breather now.

 

[JayR]

You are misinterpreting that passage in John 3 horribly. If your interpretation were true, then the Scriptures have been broken by the theif on the cross recieving salvation. He wasn't baptized, and yet he was granted eternal life, and the Scriptures were broken.

Being born of water in that passage is the physical birth. This is Jesus correcting Nicodemus. Jesus says to him, no, you must be born of water, and not be born of water again, but you must be born of water once and then the Spirit.

We are commanded to baptize converts, and we do, but water baptism doesn't cleanse men from sin, the Holy Spirit of God does that, and He is given before baptism, as He was to me.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...to say that baptism is nothing other than a symbolic gesture, is to deny the presence of God's grace, and I feel this is a grave error when we limit God's grace...

Correct. Again, it is the Sacramental Principal. When celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

 

[JayR]

I never denied the presence of God's grace in baptism, I just said that the Holy Spirit is given prior to baptism, and He is. I remember the presence of God's grace when I was baptized, I lit up like a Christmas tree, but I was set free from the bondage of sin before that, and I experienced God burning within me before that.

 

[stovebolts]

We are commanded to baptize converts, and we do, but water baptism doesn't cleanse men from sin, the Holy Spirit of God does that, and He is given before baptism, as He was to me.

yes, we are commanded to baptize. And your right, water baptism does not cleanse men from sin, for truly, only God can do that.

Where I am going to disagree with you, is at what point it is normative in scripture to recieve the Holy Spirit and what is meant by St. Paul's words, "One Baptism".

I believe, and am prepared to show scripture where it is normative (not exclusive) where one in good concience, through faith recieves the Holy Spirit during ones baptism. Baptism is the point where we connect with the death, burial and resurection of Christ and as promised, we are assured the recieving of the Holy Spirit.

When baptism is taught correctly, it is a response to the gospel, not a mere rite of passage nor a simple dunking or symbolic gesture. It is where God pours out his grace upon us.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....yes, we are commanded to baptize. And your right, water baptism does not cleanse men from sin, for truly, only God can do that....

But can not God do that through baptism?

Now I'm a bit confused on your position. If you think God's grace works through baptism, but you do not believe baptism washes away sin, then what do you believe God's grace is actually doing in baptism?

 

[JayR]

Where I disagree with you is about is which baptism Romans 6 is talking about. Is it talking about water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit where the old man is put to death and the new man is given life? Being dunked in a pool can do that? No. Romans 6 is talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JayR]

Now I'm a bit confused on your position. If you think God's grace works through baptism, but you do not believe baptism washes away sin, then what do you believe God's grace is actually doing in baptism?

Moving people to perform the act in obedience to His command. Also, giving assurance that the command of God given following conversion has been complete and that by His grace.

 

[Vic C.]

You know, there are designated places in these forums where Catholics and Protestants can abase themselves and look foolish by calling one another names.

Actually, no, there isn't. 8-)

Reminder:

This thread is about water baptism. There are to be no topics started specifically aimed at discussing RC doctrine nor is there to be any steering of topics in that direction. There is a RC subforum here where I'm sure there is a topic where this can be discussed as it pertains to the RCC.

Also, we need to refrain form any ad hominem attacks of other members.

Thanks.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Reminder: This thread is about water baptism......

Okay. Then I would simply invite people to read any of the first seven links on this page:
http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp