Water Baptism..Irrelevant Ritual?

[stovebolts]

Fair enough. I think, and hope you agree that there is a bigger picture of baptism to discuss than simply the way it is performed (as far as this thread is concerned.) :wink:

Anyway, to post a picture, all you have to do is highlight the link, and click on the IMG button. It will place a tag at the beginning of the link and a tag at the end. The one on the beginning will look like this (without the dot) [img.] At the end of the url, it will have a close tag that looks like this (without the dot) [/img.] Give it a try :D

the final product will look like this in your edit / post window (without the dots)
[img.]http://www.olmc.org/RCIA/Baptism%202%20cropped.jpg[/img.]

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Here is an article you all might find interesting:
Of Water and the Spirit
The New Birth Is Not by Faith Alone
By Alex Jones
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0012fea5.asp

Rev. Alex Jones was pastor of the pentecostal Maranatha Christian Church in Detroit, Michigan. He and members of his congregation voted to enter the Catholic Church, and they are now ALL Catholics. These are some of his insights on this thread topic.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Water Baptism..Irrelevant Ritual?

Something struck me all of a sudden about this: For everyone who says that Jesus completed everything on the cross, then why is it that he commanded the apostles to baptise AFTER His death and resurrection?

Matt 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

This event, and its companions in the other synoptic Gospels, occurs AFTER His resurrection. So, if He finished everything on the cross and no "rituals" are neccessary, then why does he COMMAND the apostles to go out and do just that, AFTER His resurrection ?!!!

Of course, I know Baptism is NOT just a ritual, and thats why I understand its importance.

 

[francisdesales]

Water Baptism..Irrelevant Ritual?

Something struck me all of a sudden about this: For everyone who says that Jesus completed everything on the cross, then why is it that he commanded the apostles to baptise AFTER His death and resurrection?

Matt 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

This event, and its companions in the other synoptic Gospels, occurs AFTER His resurrection. So, if He finished everything on the cross and no "rituals" are neccessary, then why does he COMMAND the apostles to go out and do just that, AFTER His resurrection ?!!!

Of course, I know Baptism is NOT just a ritual, and thats why I understand its importance.

And don't forget where Jesus gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins AFTER the resurrection. Seems to be at odds with the idea that Christ "did it all" and no need for such "silly" things like confessing our sins... although James 5 seems to advocate such "Catholic" ideas, as well.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

I would offer that to 'confess one's sins' is NOT about recounting each and every sin, (for there are MANY that we aren't even aware of and many that we have forgotten), but confessing that we each ARE sinners. That we NOT deny the sin in our lives IS a 'confession' of our sins.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Baptism is what it is, no more, and no less. For us, baptism is the washing away of sin, the means by which one is “born againâ€Â, and the entrance into the covenant family of God. It does NOT cover sins committed afterwards, and therefore does not guarantee your salvation. It also does not guarantee that you will always be a good Christian, just as your formula of asking Jesus to be your “personal Lord and Savoir†does not guarantee that a person who does so will always be a good Christian either.

Where we disagree is that Baptism is merely symbolic. Baptism is a sacrament: It might help to understand the sacramental principle in general.

God's creation is good, and since we are creatures with 5 senses, God works through "things" in order to allow us to see His actions, such as the mud Jesus rubbed in the blind man's eye, or Aaron's rod, or hands being laid upon another. God performs miraculous actions, but allows us to see them symbolically through our 5 senses. For example, Moses raised his staff over the Red Sea and parted the waters, but who actually parted them, Moses, or God? God, of course. That is an excellent example of the sacramental principle.

CCC 1127 - Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power

So, in baptism, our eyes see water being poured over the person, and what we don't see is the grace of God washing away that persons sin: "the sacraments confer the grace that they signify". Thats what Baptism is.

 

[francisdesales]

I would offer that to 'confess one's sins' is NOT about recounting each and every sin, (for there are MANY that we aren't even aware of and many that we have forgotten), but confessing that we each ARE sinners. That we NOT deny the sin in our lives IS a 'confession' of our sins.

MEC

I would offer to you that that is not exactly a repentant attitude...

Of course we are all sinners. Big deal. EVERY ONE OF US IS... So what is the point of admitting "I am a sinner". So what. That's like saying "I have a head on my shoulders, and I am willing to admit it..."

One must go beyond such preliminaries if they desire to be forgiven. "Confessing one's sins" means we examine ourselves and admit to God "yes, I am am proud. I am arrogant with people. I look down on other people. I cannot control myself. God, please, help me..." and so forth. One must accept that they are "whatever" and be specific. Confessing one's sins does not require us to look at each moment in our lives, but at the general direction of what type of person we are. Which of the seven capital sins do we fall into often? Are we proud? Are we lustful? Are we gluttonous? Several of the above? The only way we are going to convert is to realize the SPECIFICS that we need to change.

That is confessing one's sins, not recognizing that "Oh, I make mistakes, you can forgive me now, God"

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I would offer that to 'confess one's sins' is NOT about recounting each and every sin, (for there are MANY that we aren't even aware of and many that we have forgotten), but confessing that we each ARE sinners. That we NOT deny the sin in our lives IS a 'confession' of our sins.

MEC

Actually, I spend a good amount of time "examining my conscience" trying to remember my sins when I go to confession. When I confess, I conclude with the words "..for these and all my sins I ask God's forgiveness." Thats how I do it