Water Baptism..Irrelevant Ritual?

[Vic C.]

Hey, LOL, I can do that too! :P

I JUST posted an audio link on baptism here:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31162&p=362372#p362372

Give it a listen, people. 8-)

Eh, I'll post it here too:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/Radio/Bible ... fault.aspx

 

[Archetype]

Read Matthew 3: 11-12

I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

So John the Baptist baptized those with water. However, Christ succeeded him and is God, he will baptize thee with the Holy Spirit.

Read 1 Corinthians 7: 19

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God

I parallel this with water baptism. If a priest dunks a baby in water, that is no guarantee he will go to heaven. Therefore, rituals mean nothing in and of themselves. Christ baptizes us with the holy spirit and not with water.

What did Christ say about inheriting eternal life?

What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live" (Luke 10:25-28).

Therefore, the only condition to be saved is to love the lord and obey him. Nothing about getting dunked in water or walking in a river.

Read John 3: 7

You must be born from above.

Remember the account when the thief lied next to christ? well he had faith in the lord, but there wasn't time for a water baptism, but he still went to heaven because the lord baptized him with the Holy spirit at the moment he accepted the lord. thus he was saved.

Read matthew 28. it states we go out and baptize in the father, son and holy spirits name. nothing about water. the water baptism is therefore clearly symbolism about our dying and washing of our sins and being reborn in jesus. but itself cannot save us until we accept the lord, which baptizes us with the holy spirit and obey him.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

If you have a high speed hook-up and 60 seconds, here is a 60 second lesson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx2w9hapVJo

 

[Vic C.]

8-) It was 1:45. :

 

[Archetype]

If you have a high speed hook-up and 60 seconds, here is a 60 second lesson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx2w9hapVJo

I agree with baptism through the holy spirit and the confession in christ will save thee, no argument there.

Pouring water over my head and saying "hallejuiah" will not save me though. Its as meaningful as circumcision.

I am going to leave it at that before I say or do something stupid. I am going to respectfully disagree that water baptism, by itself will save us. Its a symbol and self defeating if we disobey the lord and turn away from him.

Thanks.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I am going to leave it at that before I say or do something stupid. I am going to respectfully disagree that water baptism....

Fair enough. It is good to debate and even disagree, as long as we do so in charity and always remain friends, because the tie that binds us - JESUS CHRIST - is stronger than arguments that divide us.
Peace Be with You

 

[Devekut]

Archetype,

I don't think anyone who believes in the sacramental nature of baptism would say that someone is going to heaven if they have been baptized but then lived a life contrary to that of their baptismal promises.

Perhaps you hold to "once saved always saved" which Catholics certainly do not, and I think others on this board do not believe in this either.

Baptism, if not lived out, will not bring one into heaven simply because the grace imparted by it will not have been co-operated with for the sake of salvation.

 

[JayR]

Baptismal promises? What does that mean? You make a promise at baptism not to live like a demon and try your best for the rest of your life to carry out that promise?

Baptism, if not lived out, will not bring one into heaven simply because the grace imparted by it will not have been co-operated with for the sake of salvation.

Co-operated? You think you co-operate your own salvation? You think that God imparts grace upon salvation, but it doesn't have the power to save unless the awesome power of man takes it the rest of the way?

 

[Devekut]

Yes,

If one does not co-operate with God's saving grace in him, then I do not believe he will be saved.

This is not to say that man merits salvation or that he acquires it for himself. Only that he must co-operate with the grace that was won for his cause. It is merely to say that we must accept God's grace in us and not grow resistent or hardended to the transformations that it will bring by persisting in our lives of sin.

As was proclaimed "Repent, for the kingdom of God is near".

The Christian is not saved by works, but his life must actively involve pursuing righteous and a life of repentence.

 

[handy]

Boy, leave town for just one evening, and look at what happens!!!

:-D

Archetype, I'm curious. If one has never had water baptism, comes to saving faith, should one be baptized? Not talking about baptism of the Spirit here, I'm speaking specifically of water baptism.

Also, elaborate upon what you believe 1 Corinthians 1 is telling us regarding baptism.

 

[Archetype]

The Christian is not saved by works, but his life must actively involve pursuing righteousness and a life of repentence.

And to take up his cross and to love the lord above all else-even one's own family. remember what christ said, he who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy to receive me.

I completely agree with that assertion. And if that is the case, then mere rituals and practices are irrelevant. remember what christ said, " I demand mercy not sacrifice." and remember when samuel rebuked saul when saul's mission was to exterminate all things of the amalekites but saul kept the best goats/sheeps to sacrifice to the lord.

saul disobeyed the lord's commandments, even though he was planning to sacrifice the beasts-make holocausts. the point here is the lord is not pleased with rituals but is with obedience and faith.

clearly what paul stated in corinthians.

ok. I'd promised I'd leave it at that. This is my last post in this thread. let my yes mean yes and my no mean no.

 

[stovebolts]

...to say that baptism is nothing other than a symbolic gesture, is to deny the presence of God's grace, and I feel this is a grave error when we limit God's grace...

Correct. Again, it is the Sacramental Principal. When celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

Amen!

 

[stovebolts]

....yes, we are commanded to baptize. And your right, water baptism does not cleanse men from sin, for truly, only God can do that....

But can not God do that through baptism?

Now I'm a bit confused on your position. If you think God's grace works through baptism, but you do not believe baptism washes away sin, then what do you believe God's grace is actually doing in baptism?

Hello friend,
Perhaps in my haste, I did not clarify appropriately. Please allow me to explain since I have a short bit of time this morning.

You're still wrong. Water baptism doesn't cleanse us from sin. The baptism of the Holy Spirit cleanses us from sin, and water baptism is an outward declaration of an inward reality.

In JayR’s post, he sees a difference between “water baptism†and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Thus, “water baptism†is nothing other than a symbolic act performed by man, thus, it (‘water baptismâ€Â) becomes a work of man, by man, for man as this “inward reality†is focused on a personal change (me-ism) rather than we-ism to include community. As far as the “outward declarationâ€Â, it is to associate not with the body of Christ, but rather to associate with the particular denomination with disregard to what Paul clearly writes to the church in Corinth. (Handy posted this scripture).

One thing I admire about the Catholic Church, is that the Catholic Church does not generally require one to be baptized again if they were baptized in a denomination and I believe this attitude reflects biblical understanding on baptism. Yet, if a protestant were to change denominations, it’s ironic how each denomination is quick to ‘re-baptize’ the believer which goes to say that this, “baptism is an outward declaration of an inward reality†is a gross misunderstanding on exactly what takes place upon baptism.

Scripture clearly states,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Repent 101 = To change ones ways.
Baptize = ‘Water Baptism’
Purpose = remission of sins
Gift = Holy Spirit.

(I do not see scripture as stating that by receiving the Holy Spirit we are forgiven, but rather, as a result of being forgiven, we receive the Holy Spirit, which we are not to grieve, lest Luke 13:27 become a reality)

Why are we baptized in water? Scripture says for the remission of sins. What exactly does remission mean? Websters has this to say,
Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins.

Does this mean that the water has authority to forgive sins? The answer is no, for only God holds that authority. As a result, there are those that will always view baptism as a work of man as they cannot grasp the grace of God in such a rite. Unfortunately, what they fail to understand is that God, by his good grace meets us in the baptismal waters and through our faith, pours his grace upon us as we receive the Holy Spirit.

Just as the baptism of John the Baptist was for the remission of sins, so is our baptism. Ironically, Jesus was baptized for the remission of sins, though he was sinless, but like our baptism, Jesus made an obedient choice to follow the will of God and to identify with sinners.

When we are baptized in the baptismal waters, we also identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In good conscience, God meets us in those waters, forgives us of our sins, and guarantee’s us the Holy Spirit.

Where I disagree with you is about is which baptism Romans 6 is talking about. Is it talking about water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit where the old man is put to death and the new man is given life? Being dunked in a pool can do that? No. Romans 6 is talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If one looks at baptism as a work of man, then water baptism is nothing other than being dunked in a pool.

Likewise, if a convert is being baptized in a pool of water primarily to gain membership within a denomination, it cannot be viewed as anything other than being dunked in a pool of water… aka ‘water baptism’.

To bring this point home, let me share this from an earlier post from another thread, Luke 11:37-54

Strongs 907 has this to say about the word translated as wash.
from a derivative of 911; baptizo
to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.

In essence, Jesus is sitting at Table un-baptized and the Pharisee’s are so concerned about their own self righteousness, rites and rituals, they loose the true meaning and purpose of God’s word which is summed up in verse 41. (Net Bible) But give from your heart to those in need, and then everything will be clean for you.

And I am left asking the question. Has your denomination lost the true meaning of Baptism? Is it merely a self righteous rite where God isn't invited to participate?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Click this link for a BUNCH of great articles on this subject:
http://www.catholic.com/search.asp?query=baptism
:

 

[stovebolts]

And I am left asking the question. Has your denomination lost the true meaning of Baptism? Is it merely a self righteous rite where God isn't invited to participate?

JayR,
Are you willing to give a scriptural response or do you concede your assertion that baptism is merely symbolic with no saving value?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Augustine, writing in A.D. 412:

"The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration"
(Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

What a difference 1100 years make, from the 5th century to the 16th century.

 

[stovebolts]

Augustine, writing in A.D. 412:

"The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration"
(Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

What a difference 1100 years make, from the 5th century to the 16th century.

Yes, and how it changed from the first century to the fifth and from the fifth, to the 21st.

Now about baptism, baptize this way: after first uttering all of these things, baptize "into the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy Spirit" in running water. But if you do not have running water, baptize in other water. Now if you are not able to do so in cold water, do it in warm water. Now if you don't have either, pour water three times on the head, "into the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit." Now before the ritual cleansing, the baptizer and the one being baptized should fast, and any others who are able. Now you will give word for the one who is being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Yes, and how it changed from the first century to the fifth and from the fifth, to the 21st.

Now about baptism, baptize this way: after first uttering all of these things, baptize "into the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy Spirit" in running water. But if you do not have running water, baptize in other water. Now if you are not able to do so in cold water, do it in warm water. Now if you don't have either, pour water three times on the head, "into the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the holy Spirit." Now before the ritual cleansing, the baptizer and the one being baptized should fast, and any others who are able. Now you will give word for the one who is being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.

Hmmm. Interesting. I believe we still do that, except for the long fast. However, since adults are baptized at a Catholic Mass, and since we must fast prior to Mass, I see some continuity there as well.
I know we still do either immersion or that "pour water three times on the head" bit. Look:
http://www.bible.ca/evangelism/baptism- ... r-2000.jpg

 

[stovebolts]

Well CC, I'm not too sure we should drag this into the realm of infant baptism, but since you brought it up with the picture you linked,

1. According to the Didache, one is to fast for "A day or two". Not that a day or two is a show stopper since I don't think the eunich fasted for a day or two... but, is an infant expected to fast, or do you believe that the Didache was not addressing infants? If not, why?

2. Baptism is to take place in running water when possible. If not, then "other" water, like perhaps a baptismal pool? As options progress downward, we'll notice that pouring over the head three times is really when one cannot be immersed by either running water or "other" water. My question is this. The RCC has some very nice church buildings. Why then do they not build in a baptistry that is capable of full immersion in running water, or at least a full size baptistry, rather than opting for the later?

side note, the Orthodox Christians fully immerse their infants three times and then anoint them with oil. Just a thought...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well CC, I'm not too sure we should drag this into the realm of infant baptism...

You're right. I just meant to show the water being poured. I wasn't focusing on the recipient. I guess I could have chosen a better pic. How about this one:
http://www.olmc.org/RCIA/Baptism%202%20cropped.jpg
(I don't know how to put the pic in my post.)