Water

[Gregg]

Water in the Scriptures is sometimes typological for the word or testimony of God. Water is often a direct reference to the word or testimony of God. Does water in the 4 following passages refer to the word or testimony of God? Please state your reasoning with support from the Scriptures.

1) "This is the One coming through water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One witnessing, because the Spirit is the truth. . . And there are three who bear witness: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are to the one" (1Jn 5:6-8).

2) " . . . as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up on its behalf, that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word" (Eph 5:26).

3) "After this, knowing that all things have now been finished that the Scripture be completed, Jesus said, 'I thirst.' " (Jn 19:28).

4) "and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters," (Gen 1:2).​

- - -

[Please give other examples with Scriptures to support your claim]


_

 

[Just a servant]

1 and 2 refer to the Living Water, our Life Source - The Holy Spirit

John 7:38 should do. The Scripture is God Breathed (written by the Holy Spirit, our life source). If not, here are more Scriptures on the Living Water http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=living+water

3 - Jesus was literally thirsty. That's why they gave Him something to drink! Apparently it was hyssop and vinegar.

4 the Breath of God was literally forming the earth. It is talking about literal water

I do not see any other way to interpret these Scriptures.

 

[Gregg]

1 and 2 refer to the Living Water, our Life Source - The Holy Spirit

John 7:38 should do. The Scripture is God Breathed (written by the Holy Spirit, our life source).

I have a question for you.
1Jn 5:8 says that there are 3 bearing witness: the Spirit, water, and blood. This distinguishes water from the Spirit. If that water is 'Living Water' as you say then the Spirit would be witnessing about Himself; something I do not believe the Spirit does as He witnesses about the Father and the Son. In Jn 7:38 I see 3 bearing a witness: 1) Jesus who is speaking, 2) the Scriptures, God's testimony, and 3) Living water, the Spirit (Jn 7:39).

- What do you see in the Scriptures that identifies water in 1Jn 5:6-8 with the Living water in Jn 7:38?

3 - Jesus was literally thirsty. That's why they gave Him something to drink! Apparently it was hyssop and vinegar.

No doubt Jesus was thirsty. But He did not drink the gall given to him on the cross. It only touched His mouth. Was he perhaps thirsty to hear the words of His Father, face to face?

4 the Breath of God was literally forming the earth. It is talking about literal water.

I agree that the water in Gen 1:2 is literal water. But is that literal water a symbol or a type for something else?

 

[Just a servant]

In 1 Jn 5:8, it helps to also notice that when the spear pierced the side of Jesus, water and blood both came out. It is possible that 1 Jn 5:8 is only mentioning water because of the testimony that is baptism. Born again in water and Spirit. But I do believe it refers to the Cross. Truth has two sides.

What I believe identifies them with each other is Jesus (who the water came out of on the cross) is God and the Living Water comes from God John 4:10

It may seem redundant, but from our perspective it makes sense. What do you think this is referring to?

As for 3 - it definitely could have had both meanings. He was on the Cross. But when he said that, I always took it literally when I read it. He didn't have to tell us He was ready to be raised from the dead for us to know it.

As for Genesis, I do not know. What do you think this is symbolic of?

 

[Gregg]

In 1 Jn 5:8, it helps to also notice that when the spear pierced the side of Jesus, water and blood both came out. It is possible that 1 Jn 5:8 is only mentioning water because of the testimony that is baptism. Born again in water and Spirit. But I do believe it refers to the Cross. Truth has two sides.

What I believe identifies them with each other is Jesus (who the water came out of on the cross) is God and the Living Water comes from God John 4:10

It may seem redundant, but from our perspective it makes sense. What do you think this is referring to?

The water referred to in 1Jn 5:6-8 is a water that Jesus came both through and in; something He came through and in on His way from heaven to earth. I am thinking that water is synonymous for 'the word of God' - His commandments (1Jn 5:2-3) and His witness/testimony (1Jn 5:9-10, 1Jn 5:11).

Jesus in the Logos, the Word sent from God, the One who explained the Father (Jn 1:18). I believe Jesus came as Immanuel from Heaven to the cross through and in His Father's commandment and testimony (spoken of as 'water' in 1Jn 5). After making propitiation, our Atonement to the Father, Jesus returned from heaven in the Resurrection; this time bearing the Fathers' testimony (the 'water' in 1Jn 5) that Jesus' blood was accepted for our atonement, the Resurrection being a demonstration of the Father's acceptance. Jesus came through that water, being the only One able to fulfill it; and He came in that water, having completely fulfilled the will of God.

As for 3 - it definitely could have had both meanings. He was on the Cross. But when he said that, I always took it literally when I read it. He didn't have to tell us He was ready to be raised from the dead for us to know it.

As for Genesis, I do not know. What do you think this is symbolic of?

I would like to hold off responding about the water in Gen 1:2, to first see what others are thinking.

 

[Just a servant]

The water referred to in 1Jn 5:6-8 is a water that Jesus came both through and in. I am thinking that water is synonymous for 'the word of God' - His commandments (1Jn 5:2-3) and His witness/testimony (1Jn 5:9-10, 1Jn 5:11).


I would like to hold off responding about the water in Gen 1:2, to first see what others are thinking.

The Holy Spirit, the Word, the Living Water, and the Truth are all synonyms. Truth is a double edged Sword. Many Scriptures have 2 valid interpretations. The Word is "God Breathed." The Lord's Spirit is "God's Breath." I am guessing your interpretation of Gen 1:2 is that the Holy Spirit was moving across the Word?

 

[Gregg]

The Holy Spirit, the Word, the Living Water, and the Truth are all synonyms. Truth is a double edged Sword. Many Scriptures have 2 valid interpretations. The Word is "God Breathed." The Lord's Spirit is "God's Breath." I am guessing your interpretation of Gen 1:2 is that the Holy Spirit was moving across the Word?

I interpret Gen 1:2 literally, the Spirit hovering over literal water; but also having symbolically.

In Gen 1:2, I vaguely perceive the water as symbolic for the will and testimony of the Father regarding His Son, water completely covering what will became dry land and dust - that is what will become the physical body of Jesus Christ the Son of God, Immanuel. I vaguely perceive this very thing portrayed by the bronze laver in the courtyard, the one supported by 12 oxen, and filled with water, used for the washing of the priests. It is even called 'the Sea' in one Scripture (2Kin 16:7).

 

[Just a servant]

" i see the water as symbolic for the will and testimony of the Father regarding His Son"

so.... the Word?

 

[Gregg]

" i see the water as symbolic for the will and testimony of the Father regarding His Son"

so.... the Word?

Not the Word [not pointing to the Son of God, the Logos in Jn 1], but water as coming from God the Father [regarding His Son], but pointing to the Person of the Father in 1Jn 5:6-8.

 

[Just a servant]

I am not understanding you. It's all the same to me. Can you clarify further? I stay away from the word "Logos" because it was incorporated into Judaism by Philo around 20 bc and came from the Greek mystery schools. It is not a term found in the Word of God, although the definition in John could be read to say that the God of Abraham is true and the mystery schools are from the deceiver.

 

[Gregg]

I am not understanding you. It's all the same to me. Can you clarify further? I stay away from the word "Logos" because it was incorporated into Judaism by Philo around 20 bc and came from the Greek mystery schools. It is not a term found in the Word of God, although the definition in John could be read to say that the God of Abraham is true and the mystery schools are from the deceiver.

I can not fully answer what you are asking for if you do not accept Logos in the manner John and the Holy Spirit used it in the Scriptures.

1Jn 5:8 references the Trinity: the Spirit [Holy Spirit] and the water [testimony of the Father] and the blood [belonging to the Son of God].

I do not believe it to be understood this way - Spirit, water [the Word, the Son], blood [the Son].

 

[Just a servant]

What God's Breath wrote in Greek was meant for the Greeks. You will also notice how the term "mystery" is used in the letters.
We have no reason to use the term "Logos" in today's age. It comes from the mystery schools that were clearly contrasted to in both the OT and the NT.

Why would the water be the Son? The Son, when he came here, was the Word made flesh. The Word is not the Son made Word. The Word was written by God's Breath. The Son was conceived by God's Breath.

So you mean that you believe Genesis means the Holy Spirit was moving over the testimony of the Father?

 

[Gregg]

What God's Breath wrote in Greek was meant for the Greeks. You will also notice how the term "mystery" is used in the letters.
We have no reason to use the term "Logos" in today's age. It comes from the mystery schools that were clearly contrasted to in both the OT and the NT.

What God breathed in Scripture was meant for me as well as for the Greeks, and for the Greek speaking Jews.

I understand the concept of Logos. As this is a forum on Apologetics and Theology, surely you will permit my use of the Title.

I am not of any mystery school, but of the mystery of Christ.

Why would the water be the Son? The Son, when he came here, was the Word made flesh. The Word is not the Son made Word. The Word was written by God's Breath. The Son was conceived by God's Breath.

I've bolded your use of 'water' above. After that, I see nothing in your words referring to water, near or remote.

So you mean that you believe Genesis means the Holy Spirit was moving over the testimony of the Father?

Not Genesis, but Gen 1:2. Literally, and symbolically.

 

[Just a servant]

What God breathed in Scripture was meant for me as well as for the Greeks, and for the Greek speaking Jews.

I understand the concept of Logos. As this is a forum on Apologetics and Theology, surely you will permit my use of the Title.

I am not of any mystery school, but of the mystery of Christ.


I've bolded your use of 'water' above. After that, I see nothing in your words referring to water, near or remote.


Not Genesis, but Gen 1:2. Literally, and symbolically.

The use of the term "Logos" is often used, in modern times, to blur the line between the mystery schools and Christianity. In Greek times, it was used to contrast between the two. That's why we don't see the word "Logos" in any English translation. You can use whatever term you want, but I'm not sure why someone would ever want to use that term. We can not even be sure God actually breathed those Scriptures in Greek; many think Aramaic came first.

In definition, it does not matter. But in common usage, it does make a difference.

All of it is closely related to the Living Water, but as for the distinction you are making here: what exactly are you calling the water, or the testimony of the Father? The basis of the Word is the testimony of the Father.

 

[Gregg]

. . . but as for the distinction you are making here: what exactly are you calling the water, or the testimony of the Father?

God's testimony: The width, breadth, and depth of His will and word regarding His Son. Namely that He loves His Son; and we are to believe in Him for eternal life.

The basis of the Word is the testimony of the Father.

What do you mean by 'basis'?

Jesus is called by many names and He has man Titles: Light, the Truth, the Word, the Resurrection, the Door of the Sheep - but this thread is about water being symbolic for the testimony of God the Father [as in 1Jn 5:6, 8]. Do you know of other examples in Scripture where 'water' refers to the testimony of God?

 

[for_his_glory]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5:
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If you compare John 3:5 with 1 John 5:5-8 water means word as in the word being the living water (John 4:10,11) as in the Father, the word (living water) and the Holy Spirit.
The three that bear witness is Holy Spirit, Gods living word, and the blood of Jesus who made atonement for sin that we can be reconciled back to the Father.

Everything from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is all Gods word and Holy Spirit dwelling in or falling on and come to Earth in the form of a man in Christ Jesus. It's all Gods grace freely given to all who will believe in that faith that is Christ Jesus as he spoke Gods word (living water) through Gods Spirit that dwelled in Christ and given to all to know Gods word (John 14:26) after ascending to sit at Gods right side as our intercessor before the Father.

It's Gods word that we are made righteous through Him, sanctified, justified and made Holy before Him. No dirty river water can save us, but is only an outward appearance to others that we have been washed clean (made righteous before God) by the blood of the Lamb and the renewing through the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

I have a question for you.
1Jn 5:8 says that there are 3 bearing witness: the Spirit, water, and blood. This distinguishes water from the Spirit. If that water is 'Living Water' as you say then the Spirit would be witnessing about Himself; something I do not believe the Spirit does as He witnesses about the Father and the Son. In Jn 7:38 I see 3 bearing a witness: 1) Jesus who is speaking, 2) the Scriptures, God's testimony, and 3) Living water, the Spirit (Jn 7:39).

- What do you see in the Scriptures that identifies water in 1Jn 5:6-8 with the Living water in Jn 7:38?



No doubt Jesus was thirsty. But He did not drink the gall given to him on the cross. It only touched His mouth. Was he perhaps thirsty to hear the words of His Father, face to face?



I agree that the water in Gen 1:2 is literal water. But is that literal water a symbol or a type for something else?

Why is the water and blood in 1 John 5:6-8 "symbolic" in your mind?

What in 1 John 5 do you see as symbolic, that would stand as contextual support for your theory that water and blood in 1 John 5:6-8 is symbolic, so that water and blood in these verse actual represents something else.


JLB