We are NOT in the End Times

[MarkT]

mark while i differ with stormcrow on the part of the ressurection, we are going to raised bodily one day when we die.

you must consider that when the word redemption is used it can mean that
like isreal was bought by god when he saved them from bondage.

so too could it be with the idea of isreals judgement that god buys then in a sense the christians from an oppressor?

How did you get on redemption Jason? It's actually the law that says you will die. It's God's own word. So Jesus was sacrificed or paid as a ransom for our sins. In this way he satisfied God's decree.

now the only issue where this fails is that part where rome and the beast were cast down.,nero died that opressor lived on.

I do enjoy history. And I have no reason to doubt the historicity of the accounts you posted, but they had no effect on my understanding. Why do you think the history you provided changes anything?

 

[MarkT]

How does one know when to flee from a nuclear first strike??? :o

And the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24 is explained in Luke 21.

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:15-21 (NASB)

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)


You flee from armies about to surround your city. You can't flee from a surprise nuke attack. 2

It will come as a surprise to most people. I'm just saying what Jesus said: when you see it where it shouldn't be then you should flee.

 

[Elijah674]

It will come as a surprise to most people. I'm just saying what Jesus said: when you see it where it shouldn't be then you should flee.

Hi, Matt. 24 & Matt. 25 finds two CRIES, the MIDNIGHT CRY FIRST, as 'i' see it. They are 39 years apart. 70 AD is the [LOUD CRY] of destruction & Matt. 25 finds old Israel's last opportunity for following out into the Acts New extension Church. (Matt. 10:5-6 on)

Consider Matt. 23:38 for Christ's ex/House! Now DESOLATE of Christ as seen prophesied in Isa. 5:3 Note that a new leader (satan) took over as they cried that 'we have NO King but Caesar'! (compare Rev. 3:9's repeated history of Eccl. 3:15)

And the prophecy for this is seen in Isa. 5:3. Daniel has the two linked together by most of the Jer. 17:5 ones it seems?

Isa. 5
[1] Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
[2] And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
[3] And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, [judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard].

---Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

How did you get on redemption Jason? It's actually the law that says you will die. It's God's own word. So Jesus was sacrificed or paid as a ransom for our sins. In this way he satisfied God's decree.




I do enjoy history. And I have no reason to doubt the historicity of the accounts you posted, but they had no effect on my understanding. Why do you think the history you provided changes anything?

we often sing let the redeemed of the lord say so.

in context that applies to isreal.

they were redeemed by the lord. didnt they become sinless?

no. so we could possibly say the same. the judgement and removal of the temple as like the purchasing of the church from its opproser.

no, the whole earth hasnt been redeemed yet.

keep in mind that most preterist believe in a third and final judgement of all men.

revalation and matthew 24 mainly adress the local tiny nation of isreal.

the history of it gives context into what too look for otherwise WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE WE TO WATCH???

At least get that right. besides why would the modern state of isreal have to be judged agian after coming to him? in order for the third temple to be built again and made holy. the blood of the lord must be negated.

that means what? jesus isnt the only now to god?

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm just saying what Jesus said: when you see it where it shouldn't be then you should flee.

Something will be set up where it ought not to be. I think he is talking about a nuclear weapon. It's going to come as a surprise attack.

Sure. I can see where Jesus spoke routinely of nukes and surprise attacks. :bigfrown

Obviously people will flee. Obviously it will be harder to survive living outdoors in the winter.

Again, how do you flee from a nuclear surprise attack? In order to flee, there has to be a warning. Surprise attacks are...wait for it...a surprise. Surprises - by definition - offer no warning. 2

If you don't even understand that fleeing from a surprise attack is a contradiction in terms, how will you ever see where else your theology has gone off the rails? Yet instead of accepting sound teaching and reproof, you continue to defend this kind of silliness. 2

 

[Stormcrow]

in order for the third temple to be built again and made holy. the blood of the lord must be negated.

that means what? jesus isnt the only now to god?

Those - as you correctly assert - who are looking forward to a third temple are really looking for a second gospel: one offered to the Jews only. This "new gospel" will cleanse sin by the renewed shedding of the blood of bulls and goats, and everyone - Jew and Gentile alike - will have to travel to the "New Jerusalem" to bow before Christ on His heave...er...earthly throne.

The nations will eat the literal leaves off trees for healing, and we will all literally drink super-purified water from the river that runs through this new city.

Ain't literalism grand? 2

 

[Stormcrow]

I believe strongly that the indicators are all over the New Testament that Christ was prophesying of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and her temple by Rome, and that it was - in fact - His coming in judgment upon that generation that precipitated Jerusalem's destruction, as we see in His opening of the seven seals in Revelation 5.

Among the evidence for this view - scattered throughout the entire Bible - is the parable of the vineyard Christ tells the chief priests, scribes, and Pharisees in Matthew 21. It is one of the first conversations He has with them shortly after His triumphal entry into Jerusalem for what would be His last, earthly Passover. Here is that parable as Matthew conveys it:

{33} "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.

{34} "When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.

{35} "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.

{36} "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.

{37} "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' {38} "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'

{39} "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. {40} "Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?"

{41} They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons." Matthew 21:33-41 (NASB)
​

What I had not seen, until recently, (though it had been there all along), is that this parable comes from Isaiah 5, which fully interprets this parable for us!

Here is that passage:

1 Let me sing now for my well-beloved A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard. My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.

2 He dug it all around, removed its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it And also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, But it produced only worthless ones.

3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge between Me and My vineyard. 4 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

5 "So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard: I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed; I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.

6 "I will lay it waste; It will not be pruned or hoed, But briars and thorns will come up. I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it."

7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel And the men of Judah His delightful plant. Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress. Isaiah 5:1-7 (NASB)
​

Isaiah's song of the vineyard was a prophecy of Judah's and Jerusalem's destruction by Babylon. His book begins with these words:

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Isaiah 1:1 (NASB)
​

So when Christ recounts Isaiah's song of the vineyard as a parable to His audience, He explains why Jerusalem and Judea will, again, be desolated (noted above) but then adds this:

{42} Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

{43} "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

{44} "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

{45} When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. Matthew 21:42-45 (NASB)

​

Finally, Luke's gospel further bears this out:

{41} When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, {42} saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.

{43} "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,

{44} and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NASB)

​

The Olivet Discourse, therefore, is not about a future coming of Christ as far as our future is concerned. To us, it speaks of a past event that dealt with the judgment of Jerusalem and Judea for the violence and injustice of the generation that crucified Christ and killed those whom He had sent to them with His gospel (compare Matthew 23:29-38 with II Chronicles 36:11-21.)

Oh, and one more thing: the book of Revelation is a full exposition of the Olivet Discourse. While Matthew gives the Discourse 2 full chapters, John wrote a whole book about it. He was there.

 

[MarkT]

Sure. I can see where Jesus spoke routinely of nukes and surprise attacks. :bigfrown



Again, how do you flee from a nuclear surprise attack? In order to flee, there has to be a warning. Surprise attacks are...wait for it...a surprise. Surprises - by definition - offer no warning. 2

You got the wrong idea. It will come as a surprise because it should not be there, not that you will not see it there or that you will not have time to flee.

 

[reba]

Hey guys thanks you are almost being most pleasant in your discussions! :yes

 

[jasoncran]

i do believe in a millenium but its workings and details im unsure to be honest.

 

[MarkT]

The argument is settled by the truth. The men of Nineveh, Jonah's generation, passed away years before Jesus and Jesus' generation passed away 2000 years ago. Did the men of Nineveh arise and condemn Jesus' generation? No. But the men of Nineveh do condemn this generation. That's the sign.

The sign is not the resurrection. The sign is the men of Nineveh condemning the generation.

Look for a generation of children calling to each other in the market place; the internet generation.

 

[Stormcrow]

It will come as a surprise because it should not be there, not that you will not see it there or that you will not have time to flee.

Well, that is not what you wrote. Here it is, again:

Something will be set up where it ought not to be. I think he is talking about a nuclear weapon. It's going to come as a surprise attack.

Please point me to the chapter and verse that makes you "think" Jesus is talking about nukes and a surprise attack!

 

[Stormcrow]

Look for a generation of children calling to each other in the market place; the internet generation.

So let me see if I understand this: Jesus didn't know what generation He was talking to but you do???

:toofunny

Would I find the biblical reference to the internet in the same passage Jesus talked about nukes???

::toofunny

 

[Stormcrow]

The sign is not the resurrection. The sign is the men of Nineveh condemning the generation.

That is not only unscriptural, it's anti-scriptural.

But please, continue regaling with biblical stories about surprise nuke attacks and the internet!

 

[MarkT]

That is not only unscriptural, it's anti-scriptural.

But please, continue regaling with biblical stories about surprise nuke attacks and the internet!

Read it again stormcrow. Jesus didn`t say anything about the resurrection. He said a sign would be given. For a sign to be a sign it has to precede the event. So I take it the condemning will precede the event. The event in this case is the judgment. The men of Nineveh will arise with this generation and condemn it. That`s the sign. Jesus didn`t say when we would see it except at the judgment.

 

[MarkT]

So let me see if I understand this: Jesus didn't know what generation He was talking to but you do???

:toofunny

Would I find the biblical reference to the internet in the same passage Jesus talked about nukes???

::toofunny

Like I said the people at the time would not have understood. And yes. I do understand.

 

[MarkT]

Hi, Matt. 24 & Matt. 25 finds two CRIES, the MIDNIGHT CRY FIRST, as 'i' see it. They are 39 years apart. 70 AD is the [LOUD CRY] of destruction & Matt. 25 finds old Israel's last opportunity for following out into the Acts New extension Church. (Matt. 10:5-6 on)

Sorry, what are you talking about? Two cries? A midnight cry? A loud cry?

Consider Matt. 23:38 for Christ's ex/House! Now DESOLATE of Christ as seen prophesied in Isa. 5:3 Note that a new leader (satan) took over as they cried that 'we have NO King but Caesar'! (compare Rev. 3:9's repeated history of Eccl. 3:15)

Jesus said the scribes and the Pharisees had an outward appearance of righteousness but inside they were full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Mt. 23:38

I wouldn’t say desolate of Christ. I’d say they were empty tombs. There was no righteousness or justice in them. They did not know mercy. I would not call them Christ’s ex house. If you want to use the imagery of the vineyard, these guys weren’t God’s planting. They were the devil’s planting, and they were leading God’s people astray. They were vipers; the sons of the evil one. They were not of God.

Isaiah prophesied that the Lord’s people would go into exile for want of knowledge. Which is true. They were dispersed around 70 AD. He said the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude would go down to Sheol. And he said for all that, God’s anger is not turned away. His hand is stretched out still.

I don’t know where you get Satan took over. Who was leading them before Satan? Remember, the Jews were killing the prophets before Jesus was born. Indeed, Jesus was sent because they were doing those things.

As for Rev. 3:9, and what the Lord said about the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and are not, but lie, he said, I will make them come and bow before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.

I don’t know what you’re getting at here. What does it have to do with Eccl.3:15?

And the prophecy for this is seen in Isa. 5:3. Daniel has the two linked together by most of the Jer. 17:5 ones it seems?

The prophecy for what? What does Jer 17:5 have to do with Daniel or Isa. 5?

 

[MarkT]

we often sing let the redeemed of the lord say so.

Well, I don't so I don't know what you are talking about.

in context that applies to isreal.

they were redeemed by the lord. didnt they become sinless?

Jesus prayed the Father to forgive them if that's what you mean. But I wouldn't say they became sinless. The new covenant is whosoever believes in the Son will live. His garment will be washed by the blood of the lamb.

no. so we could possibly say the same. the judgement and removal of the temple as like the purchasing of the church from its opproser.

Sorry. You lost me. The judgment refers to the day of judgment. Jesus predicted the buildings of the temple would be thrown down and so they were. The purchasing of the church from the oppressor makes no sense. Do you mean purchased from death? Still your analogy makes no sense.

no, the whole earth hasnt been redeemed yet.

The whole world is near death; never mind being redeemed. It's almost at the point where no human being will be saved.

keep in mind that most preterist believe in a third and final judgement of all men.

I don't know what a 'preterist' is or what they believe.

revalation and matthew 24 mainly adress the local tiny nation of isreal.

the history of it gives context into what too look for otherwise WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE WE TO WATCH???

Watch for what Jesus said.

At least get that right. besides why would the modern state of isreal have to be judged agian after coming to him? in order for the third temple to be built again and made holy. the blood of the lord must be negated.

that means what? jesus isnt the only now to god?

Get what right? What do you mean judged again? I don't see anything about a third temple. That's your belief. And no one can negate the blood of the Lord. What are you talking about?

 

[jasoncran]

Well, I don't so I don't know what you are talking about.



Jesus prayed the Father to forgive them if that's what you mean. But I wouldn't say they became sinless. The new covenant is whosoever believes in the Son will live. His garment will be washed by the blood of the lamb.



Sorry. You lost me. The judgment refers to the day of judgment. Jesus predicted the buildings of the temple would be thrown down and so they were. The purchasing of the church from the oppressor makes no sense. Do you mean purchased from death? Still your analogy makes no sense.



The whole world is near death; never mind being redeemed. It's almost at the point where no human being will be saved.



I don't know what a 'preterist' is or what they believe.



Watch for what Jesus said.



Get what right? What do you mean judged again? I don't see anything about a third temple. That's your belief. And no one can negate the blood of the Lord. What are you talking about?

when you see jerusalem surrounded by her enemies thy redemption draweth nigh and that has happened in ad 70.

the events stormcrow posted are facts from history.

there was another type of aod in the temple before it was destroyed.

so when he said all that on the evil generation it included the aod and also fleeing from jerusalem.

so that implies a third temple as theres no temple standing. and there wasnt a state of isreal untill 1948.

 

[jasoncran]

psalm 107,

Psalm 107


1O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
3And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
4They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in.
5Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.
6Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.
7And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.
8Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
9For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.
10Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
16For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.
17Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
18Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
19Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.
20He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
21Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
22And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
23They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
24These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.
25For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
26They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
27They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end.
28Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
29He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
30Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.
31Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
32Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders.
33He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground;
34A fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein.
35He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings.
36And there he maketh the hungry to dwell, that they may prepare a city for habitation;
37And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase.
38He blesseth them also, so that they are multiplied greatly; and suffereth not their cattle to decrease.
39Again, they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction, and sorrow.
40He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.
41Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock.
42The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth. 43Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD

that chapter you read before proverbs.