We are NOT in the End Times

[jasoncran]

Judgment is a future event unless you think the judgment has already happened.

Jesus didn't say anything about the menorah, the maccabees, etc.

When someone says 'a' generation, or in this case 'an' evil and adulterous generation, then it is most likely he is talking about another generation. Otherwise you would say 'this' generation. Jesus actually does say 'this' generation, but he is talking about the generation that will arise at the judgment with the men of Nineveh and the queen of the South. That's what makes this teaching a prophecy. And it is an open ended prophecy, consistent with what he said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only" Mt. 24:36 However, when we see the men of Nineveh (Iraq) condemning this generation for its evil doings, then we know we are the last generation and the judgment is near.

This whole discussion is proof positive that scholars, the Pharisees and the scholars of today, read the Bible line by line by line. And then they create stories from a single line. Here I've been arguing about the meaning of one line, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be giiven it except the sign of the prophet Jonah" and getting nowhere. My fault for not putting the line in context.

Then he said "the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation." In this way we know he is speaking of a last state, the state of the last generation. So he is definitely speaking of the end times. Because he said, 'last'. It means no more after that.

Now I have been talking about the Boomer generation and calling it evil and adulterous. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear know it is the last.

http://rcg.org/articles/witaod.html

In about 176 BC, Antiochus IV (king of the north, and type of the future final civil ruler who embodies the Beast system) acquired the kingdom from his older brother. After this, Antiochus Epiphanes removed the high priest in Jerusalem and installed some­one loyal to himself. Upon a triumphant return from Egypt, in 168 BC, Antiochus sacked the Temple at Jerusalem and took its golden vessels.
Recall that Antiochus also sent troops to Judea in 167 BC. They destroyed the Temple and its sanctuary. This act stopped the commanded twice daily sacrifices at the Temple (Ex. 29:39-42; Num. 28:4-6). This was an overt attempt to wipe out the Jewish religion with all of its doctrines.
This military leader also stationed a garrison atop the Jewish Temple Mount, desecrating it. Also recall that Daniel wrote, “Yes, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him [Antiochus] the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of [the] sanctuary was cast down†(8:11).
Daniel added this in chapter 11: “And arms shall stand on his [Antiochus’] part, and they shall pol­lute the sanctuary of strength [the Jewish Temple], and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that makes desolate†(vs. 31).
Now then, what exactly is this coming “abomination†that will be “set up†again? The truth—born of history—is beyond eye-opening in regard to prophecy.
The first fulfillment was not just Antiochus’ armies coming into Jerusalem—an early “treading it down†for three years until 165 BC—but the fact that those armies set up an image—a specific idol—on the Temple’s altar, which defiled and made it desolate. Antiochus further polluted the Temple by offering swine’s blood upon the altar.
These historical events of Daniel 8 are an unmistakable fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 11:31, and a forerunner of the end-time fulfillment of the “abomination of desolation†spoken of by Christ in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

that is what caused the hanukah miracle events and is what the jews then knew to be the aod. if they didnt know what he was talking about then why wouldnt he tell them disciples who he hid nothing?


if they asked he answered if it was meant for them to know. this is why knowing jewish history and thinking and what they were talking about.
and that link is a pro-dispy site. go figure.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus already 'quite clearly' told us 'who' that 'generation' IS.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

That's 'brood of vipers', not 'generation of vipers'. See the RSV

Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, the offspring of the serpent, the sons of the evil one, because they were not of God. God was not their Father.

It's got nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Revelation 20:
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Those were the captors of Israel of old, unseen. The 'sheep' just could not hear the fact of it. The sheep still have trouble with hearing this matter.

The Serpent of old is the devil smaller. See the garden of Eden. Rev. 20 is talking about the thousand year reign of Christ which is to come.

 

[smaller]

That's 'brood of vipers', not 'generation of vipers'. See the RSV

Many paraphrased versions alter the terms. The KJV is abundantly clear on 'who' the 'generation' of evil ones are. The devil and his messengers. The serpent was there in the Garden and remains on earth to this day as THE TEMPTER.

He has had 'one very long' time of evil and in 'his' generation.

Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, the offspring of the serpent, the sons of the evil one, because they were not of God. God was not their Father.

Are you going to say people are devils? lol

Jesus was clear about what happens where the Word is sown. Satan 'enters' the heart to steal same. Where then does that place the Tempter, Satan?

uh huh. Particularly in those men of the Temple because that is where THE WORD was sown and they were just the front line victims.

It's got nothing to do with what we're talking about.

The end times revolves exactly around 'their end.'

The Serpent of old is the devil smaller. See the garden of Eden. Rev. 20 is talking about the thousand year reign of Christ which is to come.

Uh, yeah.

Revelation is about the final retribution to 'those parties' and their 'ending' finale in the infamous LAKE.

s

 

[MarkT]

http://rcg.org/articles/witaod.html


that is what caused the hanukah miracle events and is what the jews then knew to be the aod. if they didnt know what he was talking about then why wouldnt he tell them disciples who he hid nothing?


if they asked he answered if it was meant for them to know. this is why knowing jewish history and thinking and what they were talking about.
and that link is a pro-dispy site. go figure.

True followers of the Lord only hear what the Lord said Jason. Follow the Lord. It makes no difference to me what the scholars say. I know the Lord and only him do I follow.

 

[MarkT]

Many paraphrased versions alter the terms. The KJV is abundantly clear on 'who' the 'generation' of evil ones are.

Again, that's 'brood of vipers'. John said to the Pharisees and Sadducess coming for baptism, he said to them, "you brood of vipers! And Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees who said, "It is only by Be-elzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons" and he called them a 'brood of vipers'. So yes he was speaking to men.

Are you going to say people are devils? lol

Yes those men were devils. They were not of God. Their father was the devil. Judas was a devil. Care to argue with the Lord?

Jesus was clear about what happens where the Word is sown. Satan 'enters' the heart to steal same. Where then does that place the Tempter, Satan?

He said the birds of the air snatch what was sown. Have you ever seen how seagulls attack food, and then when they have eaten the food, they fly away? The word of the kingdom is food. The bird doesn't remain after the food is gone.

The end times revolves exactly around 'their end.'

Not just them but their followers as well.

 

[MarkT]

In about 176 BC, Antiochus IV (king of the north, and type of the future final civil ruler who embodies the Beast system) acquired the kingdom from his older brother. After this, Antiochus Epiphanes removed the high priest in Jerusalem and installed some*one loyal to himself. Upon a triumphant return from Egypt, in 168 BC, Antiochus sacked the Temple at Jerusalem and took its golden vessels.
Recall that Antiochus also sent troops to Judea in 167 BC. They destroyed the Temple and its sanctuary. This act stopped the commanded twice daily sacrifices at the Temple (Ex. 29:39-42; Num. 28:4-6). This was an overt attempt to wipe out the Jewish religion with all of its doctrines.
This military leader also stationed a garrison atop the Jewish Temple Mount, desecrating it. Also recall that Daniel wrote, “Yes, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him [Antiochus] the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of [the] sanctuary was cast down” (8:11).
Daniel added this in chapter 11: “And arms shall stand on his [Antiochus’] part, and they shall pol*lute the sanctuary of strength [the Jewish Temple], and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that makes desolate” (vs. 31).
Now then, what exactly is this coming “abomination” that will be “set up” again? The truth—born of history—is beyond eye-opening in regard to prophecy.
The first fulfillment was not just Antiochus’ armies coming into Jerusalem—an early “treading it down” for three years until 165 BC—but the fact that those armies set up an image—a specific idol—on the Temple’s altar, which defiled and made it desolate. Antiochus further polluted the Temple by offering swine’s blood upon the altar.
These historical events of Daniel 8 are an unmistakable fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 11:31, and a forerunner of the end-time fulfillment of the “abomination of desolation” spoken of by Christ in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

that is what caused the hanukah miracle events and is what the jews then knew to be the aod. if they didnt know what he was talking about then why wouldnt he tell them disciples who he hid nothing?

Because they would not have understood probably. How are you going to describe a nuclear weapon to the people of 2000 years ago? It is only the last who understand. Let the reader understand.

Jesus said, "Let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." And, "Pray that it not happen in winter." Why would he tell them to flee if the abomination was simply an idol? And why would he tell them to pray it doesn't happen in winter? No. Something will be set up where it ought not to be. I think he is talking about a nuclear weapon. It's going to come as a surprise attack. Obviously people will flee. Obviously it will be harder to survive living outdoors in the winter.

 

[Hitch]

True followers of the Lord only hear what the Lord said Jason. Follow the Lord. It makes no difference to me what the scholars say. I know the Lord and only him do I follow.

Its a sad thing to watch Mark full himself to this astonishing degree. I reckon its common among cults though.

 

[Stormcrow]

When someone says 'a' generation, or in this case 'an' evil and adulterous generation, then it is most likely he is talking about another generation.

Like many, you've pulled a single verse out of context to support a view that couldn't otherwise be supported. If you read the full context of this passage, you will see that Christ is clearly talking to the people of His generation:

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

He's clearly addressing the scribes and Pharisees who demanded to see a sign from Him!

40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He's telling them He will be killed and rise again!

41 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

See? This generation, not a generation!

42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

Again, "this generation", not "a generation!"

In the very next passage, He is still talking to them about them!

43 "Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it. 44 "Then it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came'; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order. 45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." Matthew 12:38-45 (NASB)

They tried to get a sign from Him again:

3 ...Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4 "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away. Matthew 16:3-4 (NASB)

The parallel passage in Luke makes the point as to whom this generation was even more clearly:

As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. Luke 11:29 (NASB)

And Mark:

11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. 12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation." Mark 8:11-12 (NASB)

"This generation clearly refers to the people of the generation that confronted Him looking for a sign. And when they didn't get what they wanted from Him???

"But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Luke 17:25 (NASB)

Even the apostles knew the generation of which Christ spoke!

And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" Acts 2:40 (NASB)

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world...Philippians 2:14-15 (NASB)

Now, having established that Christ and the apostles were - in fact - addressing their generation, these words must be put into the context of time. And it just so happens we have verses for that, too:

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you...1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26 (KJV)

8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. James 5:8-9 (NASB)

His death came at the hands of His generation; the generation upon which all of the apostles expected Christ to come against in judgment.

 

[Stormcrow]

Something will be set up where it ought not to be. I think he is talking about a nuclear weapon. It's going to come as a surprise attack. Obviously people will flee. Obviously it will be harder to survive living outdoors in the winter.

How does one know when to flee from a nuclear first strike??? :o

And the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24 is explained in Luke 21.

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:15-21 (NASB)

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)


You flee from armies about to surround your city. You can't flee from a surprise nuke attack. 2

 

[jasoncran]

well i well trained what to do in a nuclear attack. if we have warning, we disconnect our radios put on any mopp gear and if possible dig a hole deep.

at least four feet and squat in it. if we are at ground zero, no chance of surivival.

if we are at three miles from it, if we survive the wind, the radiation may get us. the farther the one is from the impact the better the chances of survival.but if theres no warning,you aint going to make it. if you do, you will go through the horrid radiation posioning.

 

[smaller]

Again, that's 'brood of vipers'. John said to the Pharisees and Sadducess coming for baptism, he said to them, "you brood of vipers! And Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees who said, "It is only by Be-elzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons" and he called them a 'brood of vipers'. So yes he was speaking to men.

Well of course He was. Where do devils abide but 'IN MAN?'

Does this make 'man' the same as 'devils?'

Nope!

Yes those men were devils.

Uh, that would be a 'no.' Satan spoke from Peters lips. Was Peter then Satan? uh, NO. Satan entered Judas. Was Judas then Satan? uh, NO.

The tempter tempts believers. The tempter is SATAN, the DEVIL. Does this make a believer who is tempter by the tempter 'in mind' then Satan? uh, NO.

They were not of God.

Well Mark, the scriptures say otherwise. All of Israel then and to this day are taught from the 'scriptures' that they are Gods children. Go read Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 or any number of other 'scriptures' that state this 'fact.' Gods children can't possibly be 'devils.'

The 'tempter' however does enter the heart to blind, to steal, to kill and to destroy. What happened them is no different than what happens today in regards to the 'tempter.' You may consider yourself 'exempt' from the tempter tempting your mind. I do not. It's legit.

Their father was the devil. Judas was a devil. Care to argue with the Lord?

lol...

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

So, there was Judas and there was SATAN entered into Judas.

Which one do you think was THE DEVIL? :biglol

Thee 'end times' is in large part the account of the destruction of 'the devils' as an entity class.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[MarkT]

Like many, you've pulled a single verse out of context to support a view that couldn't otherwise be supported. If you read the full context of this passage, you will see that Christ is clearly talking to the people of His generation:

I agee he is talking to his generation, but what you don't see is he is also talking to our generation. According to your logic nothing he said would apply to us since he was talking to them.

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

He's clearly addressing the scribes and Pharisees who demanded to see a sign from Him!

Yes. But the teaching is for believers.

According to Matthew, Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign. Now you could say Mark and Luke don't put it exactly that way and reading Mark and Luke alone you might think Jesus was talking about his generation only. But I don't prefer one gospel over another. So I agree with everything. But I'd say Matthew provides us with a clearer picture of what Jesus said. I agree Jesus was first talking about the generation that saw him. The apostles also spoke of the evil and crooked generation. But they were speaking of the world in their lifetime.

According to Matthew, The generation he was talking about would not receive any sign except the sign of Jonah. Jesus would be in the earth for three days and three nights. Now we know the people who saw Jesus were shown many signs.

Was the sign of Jonah given to those people? I guess so. Many came to believe in him after they heard he was resurrected. But the Bible doesn't say they were the same people who saw him and heard him. But was the resurrection a sign for that generation of believers alone? I don't think so. It was a sign for us as well.

Many believers back then thought they were going to see his coming and the resurrection of the dead in their lifetime. But it didn't happen. However, using 'an' and 'a' generation, he is leaving it open to any generation, and so 'this' generation might even be our generation.

40

for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He's telling them He will be killed and rise again!

I agree.

41 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

See? This generation, not a generation!

Right. But if he is still talking about an evil and adulterous generation, then it could be any generation.

The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Certainly Jesus was talking to his generation. I agree the generation that heard him was the generation he was calling evil and adulterous because he refers to his teachings. But didn't we hear him also?

If the men of Nineveh will arise with his generation, they will also arise with the last generation, which is obviously true if there is such a thing as a last generation.

42

"The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

Again, "this generation", not "a generation!"

'This' could refer to a future generation as well.

In the very next passage, He is still talking to them about them!

43 "Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it. 44 "Then it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came'; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order. 45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." Matthew 12:38-45 (NASB)

Yes. If you read Matthew, Jesus said this generation would begin one way and end up worse. Now look at my generation. When I was growing up, Bible readings and prayer were required in school. There was a whole different spirit in the world. Our values were the values of the Bible. You could see it everywhere especially in what was on TV. Then all of that was rejected, and some things were even made illegal. It's truly become an evil and adulterous generation. Is it just coincidence?

They tried to get a sign from Him again:

3 ...Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4 "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away. Matthew 16:3-4 (NASB)

Here again he uses the words 'an evil and adulterous generation'.

The parallel passage in Luke makes the point as to whom this generation was even more clearly:

As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. Luke 11:29 (NASB)

Yep. Jesus was clearly speaking to his generation.

11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. 12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation." Mark 8:11-12 (NASB)

So if you read this by itself, then Jesus said no sign would be given the generation that he was talking to.

"This generation clearly refers to the people of the generation that confronted Him looking for a sign. And when they didn't get what they wanted from Him???

"But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Luke 17:25 (NASB)

Even the apostles knew the generation of which Christ spoke!

Of course that was the generation that crucified him.

And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" Acts 2:40 (NASB)

No one is denying that Peter's generation was perverse.

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world...Philippians 2:14-15 (NASB)

It's as true today as it was in Paul's time.

Now, having established that Christ and the apostles were - in fact - addressing their generation, these words must be put into the context of time. And it just so happens we have verses for that, too:

Surely they were addressing every generation beginning with the one that saw him.

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you...1 Peter 1:20 (NASB)

He was manifested at the end of the times for our sake. RSV

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26 (KJV)

The end of the age was also the beginning of the new covenant.

8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. James 5:8-9 (NASB)

Is he not standing at the door today?

His death came at the hands of His generation; the generation upon which all of the apostles expected Christ to come against in judgment.

Is the judgment going to fall only on them? Why? Because they crucified him? Wrong! Jesus was sent to be crucified.

Jesus didn't say they would be condemned for crucifying him. He said they would be condemned for not believing he was the Christ and for not repenting. It's for that reason that every generation is condemned. Jesus said the judgment would begin with that generation. "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." John 12:31,32.

 

[Stormcrow]

but what you don't see is he is also talking to our generation.
It was a sign for us as well.
But if he is still talking about an evil and adulterous generation, then it could be any generation.
'This' could refer to a future generation as well.

There is nothing in any of those passages I cited that can be taken to mean any other generation than the one He was addressing: the one standing right there in front of Him. Nothing. The fact that you can read something into the text that simply isn’t there means you’re not letting the text speak for itself, rather you’re using your interpretation of the text to support a point-of-view that cannot otherwise be supported.

According to your logic nothing he said would apply to us since he was talking to them.

Nothing He said to those standing right there in front of Him demanding a sign does apply to us. Are you a scribe or Pharisee? If not, He isn't addressing you. This ain't rocket science.

Many believers back then thought they were going to see his coming and the resurrection of the dead in their lifetime. But it didn't happen.

He told them it would. Are you calling Christ a liar?

Jesus didn't say they would be condemned for crucifying him.

Might want to read the parable of the vineyard again. Matthew 21.

 

[MarkT]

Well of course He was. Where do devils abide but 'IN MAN?'

Does this make 'man' the same as 'devils?'

Nope!

Yep! If he is of the Devil then he is a devil.

Uh, that would be a 'no.' Satan spoke from Peters lips. Was Peter then Satan? uh, NO. Satan entered Judas. Was Judas then Satan? uh, NO.

Jesus may have caused Peter to say what he did. I don't know that he entered him. Serpents beget serpents. Jesus said Judas was a devil. He did not say he was the Devil.

The tempter tempts believers. The tempter is SATAN, the DEVIL. Does this make a believer who is tempter by the tempter 'in mind' then Satan? uh, NO.

No.

Well Mark, the scriptures say otherwise. All of Israel then and to this day are taught from the 'scriptures' that they are Gods children. Go read Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 or any number of other 'scriptures' that state this 'fact.' Gods children can't possibly be 'devils.'

As Paul said, not all Isarel is Israel. "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants." Romans 9:6-7

The 'tempter' however does enter the heart to blind, to steal, to kill and to destroy. What happened them is no different than what happens today in regards to the 'tempter.' You may consider yourself 'exempt' from the tempter tempting your mind. I do not. It's legit.

He blinds the minds of unbelievers if that's what you mean.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

So, there was Judas and there was SATAN entered into Judas.

Which one do you think was THE DEVIL?

You just said Satan entered Judas. The Devil is Satan. Note he was not in Judas before it says he entered him.

 

[MarkT]

There is nothing in any of those passages I cited that can be taken to mean any other generation than the one He was addressing: the one standing right there in front of Him. Nothing. The fact that you can read something into the text that simply isn’t there means you’re not letting the text speak for itself, rather you’re using your interpretation of the text to support a point-of-view that cannot otherwise be supported.

You have to take everything into consideration. Why does he say 'an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign' if they were the generation? Sure they asked him for a sign which prompted his response, but his language suggests a future generation when he says no sign will be given it. And why does he say no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah when many saw him doing miracles? They even heard the voice from heaven saying 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." Also Paul was blinded by a light from heaven and he heard Jesus saying, "Saul why do you persecute me?"

Nothing He said to those standing right there in front of Him demanding a sign does apply to us. Are you a scribe or Pharisee? If not, He isn't addressing you. This ain't rocket science.

No. I'm not a scribe or a Pharisee. Still he said a generation seeks a sign. The men of Nineveh will arise with this generation and condemn it. And that's what I see. Nineveh is in Iraq. Just a coincidence?

He told them it would. Are you calling Christ a liar?

You make my point. Christ was not a liar. Therefore he was not talking about them.

Might want to read the parable of the vineyard again. Matthew 21.

O.K. You mean at the hands of the chief priests and the Pharisees. But speaking of the generation, he said they would be condemned for not believing his teachings and not repenting.

 

[Stormcrow]

You make my point. Christ was not a liar. Therefore he was not talking about them.

:toofunny

{23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23 (NASB)

{27} "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. {28} "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 (NASB)

Now, before you play the "transfiguration card", you should read the next passage:

{64} Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." {65} Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; {66} what do you think?" They answered, "He deserves death!" Matthew 26:64-66 (NASB)


He told Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin virtually the same thing He told the disciples about His coming. The difference was he told the Sanhedrin they would see Him after the transfiguration had already happened. Therefore, neither of these passages are talking about the transfiguration.

He told them He would come back to judge that generation and some of them would be alive to see it. They believed He would return because He told them He would. Any doctrine that calls Christ a liar isn't worth the energy to believe or defend, IMHO.

 

[Stormcrow]

But speaking of the generation, he said they would be condemned for not believing his teachings and not repenting.

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

{36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

{37} "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

{38} "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

{24} "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.

{25} "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:24-25 (NASB)

Only one generation fulfilled Christ's prophecies of judgment: the generation into which He was born.

{41} When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, {42} saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. {43} "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, {44} and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NASB)

 

[jasoncran]

mark while i differ with stormcrow on the part of the ressurection, we are going to raised bodily one day when we die.

you must consider that when the word redemption is used it can mean that
like isreal was bought by god when he saved them from bondage.

so too could it be with the idea of isreals judgement that god buys then in a sense the christians from an oppressor?

now the only issue where this fails is that part where rome and the beast were cast down.,nero died that opressor lived on.

 

[Hitch]

His death came at the hands of His generation; the generation upon which all of the apostles expected Christ to come against in judgment. Is the judgment going to fall only on them? Why? Because they crucified him? Wrong! Jesus was sent to be crucified.

Jesus didn't say they would be condemned for crucifying him. He said they would be condemned for not believing he was the Christ and for not repenting. It's for that reason that every generation is condemned. Jesus said the judgment would begin with that generation. "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." John 12:31,32.

9Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. 10And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
19And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.





oh well

 

[MarkT]

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

{36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

{37} "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

{38} "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:34-38 (NASB)

{24} "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.

{25} "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:24-25 (NASB)

Only one generation fulfilled Christ's prophecies of judgment: the generation into which He was born.

{41} When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, {42} saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. {43} "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, {44} and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NASB)

You insinuated the parable of the vineyard which concerns the Jews alone. But I don't think Mt. 12 is talking about those tenants or that vineyard. And most of what you're saying concerns Jerusalem, and the scribes and the Pharisees who were the sons of the ones who murdered the prophets.

But according to Mt. 12, the men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment with a generation and condemn it for not repenting at Jesus' teaching, and the queen of the South will arise with that generation and condemn it for not seeking him. For he says, I have been found by a people who did not seek me. referring to the Gentiles.

First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry." Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people. Romans 10:19-21

Truly my people, my generation, do not repent and they do not seek him. My people, who are not even a nation, my generation, appeared to have found him, but for lack of water they returned to their evil ways and the last state is worse than the first.