its like astrology itself is jewish in origin. I know that tarot cards come from the kabbalah.and also the mezorah is older then astrology and was to tell the story of creation using the stars.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.
- Thread starter Chopper
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Chopper
Member
I believe you are right as to the astrologers and astronomers.
Chopper
Member
Day 11 Wednesday 9/24/14 Matthew 2:7-10 The Star That Moved.
Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
That sneaky old Herod has a plan up his royal sleeve. If he is going to stay King of the Jews, he had to get rid of his competition. Now, he must know the exact time that the star appeared to the wise men so he could know the age of this new King. Herod needed to know the exact age of Jesus, was he looking for a new-born? Or was he looking for a one or two year old?
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
When it says that Herod wanted the wise men to search diligently, it means that he wanted as much information that they could record so that Herod would have an abundance of information so that he would know exactly who he was looking for. I'm sure that at this point he did not want to kill a different infant than the one he was looking for.
Herod needed to convince these wise men that he just wanted to go and congratulate the mother and father as well as pay his respects to this new king.
Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Now this star is very interesting. I have mentioned before that I thought that this "moving star" was a miracle. It sure seems to me as a type of Shekinah glory that led the Israelites fleeing from Egypt. This star guided them right to the house where Jesus, Joseph and Mary were residing.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Just to follow a star that they had never seen in the heavens before, remember that they were astronomers and made it their study to map out and know each star, but this star is very different. They must have been in great awe of this heavenly guide. When this star stopped right over the house where the new king lived with His parents, they must have broken out in much joy and praise. Deborah13 mentioned that she wondered if they were changed men from this experience, I would like to believe that being in the presence of this holy family converted them. This could be the first converts from heathen men to believers in the Lord of Lords, King of kings.
Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
That sneaky old Herod has a plan up his royal sleeve. If he is going to stay King of the Jews, he had to get rid of his competition. Now, he must know the exact time that the star appeared to the wise men so he could know the age of this new King. Herod needed to know the exact age of Jesus, was he looking for a new-born? Or was he looking for a one or two year old?
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
When it says that Herod wanted the wise men to search diligently, it means that he wanted as much information that they could record so that Herod would have an abundance of information so that he would know exactly who he was looking for. I'm sure that at this point he did not want to kill a different infant than the one he was looking for.
Herod needed to convince these wise men that he just wanted to go and congratulate the mother and father as well as pay his respects to this new king.
Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Now this star is very interesting. I have mentioned before that I thought that this "moving star" was a miracle. It sure seems to me as a type of Shekinah glory that led the Israelites fleeing from Egypt. This star guided them right to the house where Jesus, Joseph and Mary were residing.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
Just to follow a star that they had never seen in the heavens before, remember that they were astronomers and made it their study to map out and know each star, but this star is very different. They must have been in great awe of this heavenly guide. When this star stopped right over the house where the new king lived with His parents, they must have broken out in much joy and praise. Deborah13 mentioned that she wondered if they were changed men from this experience, I would like to believe that being in the presence of this holy family converted them. This could be the first converts from heathen men to believers in the Lord of Lords, King of kings.
the star they followed might have been seen before , i don't remember if it is recorded that it wasn't.
"The Witness of the Stars" by the Scriptural authority e.w.bullinger
reveals an amazing Gospel of Yeshua in the sky that Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Abraham and Moses, etc etc (before writing, before books)
and countries all over / around the world knew and knew intimately about and specifically about a coming savior - the one true savior Yeshua HaMashiach.
"The Wise Men from the East" certainly knew the witness of the stars in fact,
that was put in the sky just as the Eternal Sovereign Yhvh designed.
In comparison, (why few people we know know of such things),
very very few books about ancient astronomy/astrology exist as far as i've ever heard.
(few books that are true, not fictional or mythical or sinful).
"The Witness of the Stars" by the Scriptural authority e.w.bullinger
reveals an amazing Gospel of Yeshua in the sky that Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Abraham and Moses, etc etc (before writing, before books)
and countries all over / around the world knew and knew intimately about and specifically about a coming savior - the one true savior Yeshua HaMashiach.
"The Wise Men from the East" certainly knew the witness of the stars in fact,
that was put in the sky just as the Eternal Sovereign Yhvh designed.
In comparison, (why few people we know know of such things),
very very few books about ancient astronomy/astrology exist as far as i've ever heard.
(few books that are true, not fictional or mythical or sinful).
Deborah13
Member
I have had to do some rethinking about these verses. I don't think they were pagans.
What I find interesting is that they were from the east. Were they from the same place that Abraham was from? Were they some who had heard of the coming Messiah and had been waiting for a sign?
Mat 2:2 saying, `Where is he who was born king of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and we came to bow to him.'
From this verse it would appear that they knew He was coming and that they came with this knowledge that He was King of the Jews. They came to honor Him as King of the Jews (or Judah, as a nation).
Does this imply that they adhered to the belief in the coming Jewish Messiah and that He was their Messiah as well, I think it does.
I think you are correct that they were some of the first to recognize who this child was.
I think it is also important to know who this king Herod was. Was he a Jew himself? Had he or his family converted to Judaism? Who appointed him king? What area of Israel was he king of? Which Herod was he? (There was more than one.) Is he the Herod who built the temple in Jerusalem? Did an appointed king have the authority to appoint people like the High Priest in the temple?
I don't know the answers to all these questions but I think to understand what was going on in Jerusalem at that time and during Christ's ministry they are important questions.
Chopper
Member
I have had to do some rethinking about these verses. I don't think they were pagans.
What I find interesting is that they were from the east. Were they from the same place that Abraham was from? Were they some who had heard of the coming Messiah and had been waiting for a sign?
Mat 2:2 saying, `Where is he who was born king of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and we came to bow to him.'
From this verse it would appear that they knew He was coming and that they came with this knowledge that He was King of the Jews. They came to honor Him as King of the Jews (or Judah, as a nation).
Does this imply that they adhered to the belief in the coming Jewish Messiah and that He was their Messiah as well, I think it does.
I think you are correct that they were some of the first to recognize who this child was.
I think it is also important to know who this king Herod was. Was he a Jew himself? Had he or his family converted to Judaism? Who appointed him king? What area of Israel was he king of? Which Herod was he? (There was more than one.) Is he the Herod who built the temple in Jerusalem? Did an appointed king have the authority to appoint people like the High Priest in the temple?
I don't know the answers to all these questions but I think to understand what was going on in Jerusalem at that time and during Christ's ministry they are important questions.
Wow, good questions. Perhaps some of our Jewish friends could answer your questions. A biblical historian could be what you're looking for.
no king Herod was a descedent of esau via the idumeans.I have had to do some rethinking about these verses. I don't think they were pagans.
What I find interesting is that they were from the east. Were they from the same place that Abraham was from? Were they some who had heard of the coming Messiah and had been waiting for a sign?
Mat 2:2 saying, `Where is he who was born king of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and we came to bow to him.'
From this verse it would appear that they knew He was coming and that they came with this knowledge that He was King of the Jews. They came to honor Him as King of the Jews (or Judah, as a nation).
Does this imply that they adhered to the belief in the coming Jewish Messiah and that He was their Messiah as well, I think it does.
I think you are correct that they were some of the first to recognize who this child was.
I think it is also important to know who this king Herod was. Was he a Jew himself? Had he or his family converted to Judaism? Who appointed him king? What area of Israel was he king of? Which Herod was he? (There was more than one.) Is he the Herod who built the temple in Jerusalem? Did an appointed king have the authority to appoint people like the High Priest in the temple?
I don't know the answers to all these questions but I think to understand what was going on in Jerusalem at that time and during Christ's ministry they are important questions.
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7598-herod-i
Deborah13
Member
1)So this is the Herod called Herod the Great.
2) According to this site he reigned from 40-4 BC. That would mean Jesus was born around what, 7-6 BC at the latest?
3) Was Herod a Jewish convert?
"King of Judea 40-4 B.C.; founder of the Herodian dynasty; born about 73 B.C.; son of Antipater, and, consequently, of Idumean origin."http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7598-herod-i
"..Josephus explains that Antipater's family converted to Judaism during the forced conversions by the Sadducee-influenced Hasmonean leader John Hyrcanus. Hyrcanus threatened that any Idumeaan who wished to maintain their land would need to be circumcised and enter into the traditions of the Jews. Forcible conversion was not recognized by the dominant Pharisaic tradition, so even though Antipater and Herod the Great may have considered themselves of the Jewish faith, they were not considered Jewish by the observant and nationalist Jews of Judea."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipater_the_Idumaean
3) He appointed the High Priest of the temple.
4) "Of all Herod's building operations, however, the most magnificent was the restoration of the Second Temple at Jerusalem. This work, begun in the eighteenth year of Herod's reign, was completed in its essential parts in eight years." [This would have been the temple in Jerusalem were Jesus preached and threw out the money changers.]
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th1b.taylor
Member
Great post Chopper.
I went for two appoints at the VA today and then crashed and missed any study time today but as I read your post I was stricken with a thought on the first and second chapters, here. From 1990 until today I have seen the timing or the time line for these two events and I think it an be important to our, overall, understanding here.
These Wise Men, oft called Kings, saw the star two years before they arrived from some where in the Persian kingdom. And from the scriptures, Mary and Joseph remained, only, 8 and perhaps up to 40 days before they fled to Egypt. Herod slaughtered every male child from just born through the age of 2 years. These men arrived a few days after the Birth of Jesus after a journey of, perhaps, three to five weeks.
These men studied for the better part of two years before they began their journey and yet they arrived, shortly, after His circumcision. The hand of God is so clearly on this event that even an Atheist should, clearly, see it
God is so good.
Chopper
Member
Thank you for that, Giant of a man Taylor. I love to see the hand of God over these proceedings. He's not about to let that old blood thirsty Herod get his hands on His Son.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Chopper
Member
Day 12 Thursday 9/25/14 Matthew 2:11,12 God's Warning.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
It looks like, since Jesus, Joseph and Mary were no longer in the manger but in a house, various writers believe Jesus was about two years old.
The more I study about these "wise men" the more I agree with Deborah13. The Scripture says they "fell down and worshiped Him." Without reading a commentary, just my own perspective, it looks to me as these men have at some point in the past, been converted or became proselytes of Judaism. I do know that in the custom of eastern nations, bowing down is not an unusual thing for people who meet royalty. I just feel this is different.
It appears from the number of gifts that were presented, that there were three wise men. The gifts that they presented was first to royalty, and second were very useful. Frankincense is resin used ceremonially for the only incense permitted on the altar. And myrrh is sap used in incense, perfume, and as a stimulant. Gold, well it's gold. These might be useful on their trip to Egypt.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
It also seems to me that these wise men were proselytes because the Lord was able to communicate to them in a dream not to return to Herod, and it appears that they received that warning without question.
Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
It looks like, since Jesus, Joseph and Mary were no longer in the manger but in a house, various writers believe Jesus was about two years old.
The more I study about these "wise men" the more I agree with Deborah13. The Scripture says they "fell down and worshiped Him." Without reading a commentary, just my own perspective, it looks to me as these men have at some point in the past, been converted or became proselytes of Judaism. I do know that in the custom of eastern nations, bowing down is not an unusual thing for people who meet royalty. I just feel this is different.
It appears from the number of gifts that were presented, that there were three wise men. The gifts that they presented was first to royalty, and second were very useful. Frankincense is resin used ceremonially for the only incense permitted on the altar. And myrrh is sap used in incense, perfume, and as a stimulant. Gold, well it's gold. These might be useful on their trip to Egypt.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
It also seems to me that these wise men were proselytes because the Lord was able to communicate to them in a dream not to return to Herod, and it appears that they received that warning without question.
th1b.taylor
Member
I agree Chopper. I have always believed they were converts and when we read Daniel it becomes clear that the four Jewish lads were quite an influence among the upper ranks of the King's court. This, coupled with, God's word never returns empty and we have a solid basis for my belief.
TOG
Member
Most every thing i have heard about Joseph, i have never heard he was wealthy. The gifts given would have paid for the long trek to Egypt.
So often it seems God does things with double or better duty in mind.
And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” (Luke 2:22-24 ESV)
Many people get upset and start ranting about legalism and bondage at the mere mention of the law, but it is mentioned and alluded to throughout the New Testament, and an understanding of the law can help us understand many things in the New Testament better. This is one such case. Here's the law being referred to.
And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering, and he shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her. Then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female. And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons. (Lev. 12:6-8 ESV)
This was not something people could choose at will. They were supposed to bring a lamb, but allowance was made for those who could not afford a lamb. Everyone who could afford to sacrifice a lamb had to sacrifice one. The reason Joseph and Mary didn't sacrifice a lamb was that they couldn't afford one. After the wise men's visit, however, they were able to afford travel to Egypt, which would have involved considerable expenses. That means that Joseph and Mary weren't wealthy before Jesus was born, and that the gifts were more than just a handful or a small box each. It also tells us that, contrary to what you see on Christmas cards, the magi didn't come to the manger, but some time after Mary's purification.
The TOG
and also why the man Hillel sent his student to be law teachers and priests as the priests were corrupt and were often slain by the populous.