Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[reba]

This is speculation on my part ... The romantic side of me says God gave Joseph his bride back to him as she was when God borrowed her.
His grave was borrowed the donkey He rode on... etc

 

[Mike]

Today we are concluding Chapter one. Mike, my old buddy, had said that he felt more information on this most important event could have been useful for our study

I must not have been very clear, because Deborah questioned what I meant, and I think you must have misunderstood, too. I wasn't saying we need more information. It is found in other accounts of the birth of Christ. My question was, why did Matthew have so little to say about it? Unlike Luke, Matthew walked with Jesus and studied His life from the beginning of His ministry. The magnificent miracle of His birth brought the face of God before him, and he learned right from the mouth of God!

It has always puzzled me how Matthew knew so intimately what the prophets like Isaiah foretold, knew so much about how Jesus virgin birth was made known to his people, but he was Led to include so few details about the events leading up to His birth and the birth itself.

All scripture is God-breathed and useful... More than useful, it's vital. We have what Matthew penned, because it is just what the Lord wanted him to say. I just wonder why He had Matthew write so little about something so wonderful!

 

[reba]

He was tax collector maybe his personality was just more cold... to the point.. more direct... that sorta thing...

 

[Mike]

He was tax collector maybe his personality was just more cold... to the point.. more direct... that sorta thing...

Thanks, Reba.

He "was" a tax collector, but he wasn't one anymore when he penned his Gospel. That, combined with the fact that he was only writing what he was Led to write causes me to wonder how much his former career influenced what he wrote. God's Words, not his own, right? That thought might derail the discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Chopper]

Mary was a virgin because she had never had intercourse with any man until after Jesus was born.
1vir·gin
noun \ˈvər-jən\
: a person who has not had sexual intercourse
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin

Exactly. When Jesus was born did He not break that thing (don't know the correct name) when He came out? So after the birth, she ceased to be a virgin. Right?

 

[Deborah13]

Mike

I think that maybe God's goal through Matthew was different from His goal through Luke. Thus different information for different knowledge.
I agree with reba in that Matthew was a facts guy. As a tax collector he dealt in black and white numbers, lists.
Luke being a doctor had a different view of this miraculous birth. Different type of knowledge so a clearer revelation and understanding. Or he could express better than Matthew could have.
God chose a Pharisee and lawyer of the law to teach grace. I believe this was because Saul/Paul had this knowledge of the law that he could see the difference between the two so much more clearly. Peter raised under the law, said Paul was hard to understand.
All of their abilities were given them by God as gifts.

I don't think God dictated word for word what was written. He gave them revelation knowledge and they wrote it in their own style, with their own personalities, and gifts that God had given them.

 

[Mike]

Thanks, Deborah. I appreciate your perspective, but I'm more of the belief that His Word is His Words. How much He used their life experience to shape how things were written, we'll know more one day. I don't believe anyone's limitations will limit what God has to say. That said, it was good stuff what you wrote. Be blessed.

 

[Deborah13]

Exactly. When Jesus was born did He not break that thing (don't know the correct name) when He came out? So after the birth, she ceased to be a virgin. Right?

Being a virgin, one who has not had sexual intercourse.
Here's an example.
If a young woman, who has never had sexual relations with a man, is suspected to have cancer of the uterus, some point she is examined by a doctor. He would have to break her hymen to do this.
But she would still be a virgin because she had never had sexual intercourse with a man.

The birth of Jesus did not change the FACT that she had never had sexual intercourse until AFTER Jesus was born. Once she experienced sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph, she was no longer a virgin.

 

[reba]

Chopper God has healed our broken hearts more then once .. whats a little hymen compared to that?

 

[follower]

Exactly. When Jesus was born did He not break that thing (don't know the correct name) when He came out? So after the birth, she ceased to be a virgin. Right?

giving birth doesn't make a women not a virgin. having sex with a man is what makes her not a virgin.
no one ever said Yhvh had sex with mary (except perverts in other countries and religions(yes, they claim very perverted things)).

so mary was still a virgin until she consummated her union with joseph.

since Yeshua still had holes in his body from the crucifixion after the resurrection, there's really no reason to think that mary's body was restored to unbrokenness after His birth either.

 

[reba]

and my the same notion there is no reason not too.

 

[follower]

it may be adding to Yhvh's Word. He never once indicates at all that He would 'fix' mary after shes delivered the Messiah. He didn't heal Jacob's hip, and didn't take away Paul's thorn in the flesh, and didn't put John's head back on ! He always let the evidence (testable) verify the truth, not 'hide' it nor change it to be different from the truth. Whenever something good or 'bad' happened, His men always told it just as it was - they didn't pull any punches in regards to the strict truth. (it would be a smudge on His integrity and honor to change something unnecessarily for emotional reasons)

 

[Chopper]

Being a virgin, one who has not had sexual intercourse.
Here's an example.
If a young woman, who has never had sexual relations with a man, is suspected to have cancer of the uterus, some point she is examined by a doctor. He would have to break her hymen to do this.
But she would still be a virgin because she had never had sexual intercourse with a man.

The birth of Jesus did not change the FACT that she had never had sexual intercourse until AFTER Jesus was born. Once she experienced sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph, she was no longer a virgin.

Ok, finally I understand your point of view. Sorry I'm so thick headed. I assumed that without a hymen (thanks) a woman was no longer considered a virgin. BUT I see I was wrong....she must have intercourse with a man to be considered not a virgin. SO, why do people classify Mary as a virgin even after intercourse with Joseph?

Anyway, thank you for helping me understand.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper God has healed our broken hearts more then once .. whats a little hymen compared to that?

So you believe that God healed Mary's torn hymen after the birth? What about after having intercourse with Joseph?

 

[reba]

So you believe that God healed Mary's torn hymen after the birth?

i believe it is possible seems the respectful thing to do..

What about after having intercourse with Joseph?

that is totally human whole different game... My guess is their sex life was normal...so that answer would be a clear no

 

[Deborah13]

Ok, finally I understand your point of view. Sorry I'm so thick headed. I assumed that without a hymen (thanks) a woman was no longer considered a virgin. BUT I see I was wrong....she must have intercourse with a man to be considered not a virgin. SO, why do people classify Mary as a virgin even after intercourse with Joseph?

Anyway, thank you for helping me understand.

The RCC teaches that she never did have intercourse with Joseph, even after Jesus' birth. They teach they lived celibate lives until their deaths.

 

[reba]

The RCC teaches that she never did have intercourse with Joseph, even after Jesus' birth. They teach they lived celibate lives until their deaths.

Dumb sex in marriage is not sin...

 

[follower]

Ok, finally I understand your point of view. Sorry I'm so thick headed. I assumed that without a hymen (thanks) a woman was no longer considered a virgin. BUT I see I was wrong....she must have intercourse with a man to be considered not a virgin. SO, why do people classify Mary as a virgin even after intercourse with Joseph?

Anyway, thank you for helping me understand.

some enemies of Christ snuck in soon after the apostles left (slept and went to be with the Lord),
and they claimed falsely (to gain power over outside populations of pagans) that Mary never had any children, that she and Joseph never, ... ... (you know) .. ... ..
the goddesses of some outside heathen nations were likened to Mary to get those other nations under the same umbrella (towards total world control, published and documented ad infinitum, ad nausem).

but since Mary and Joseph did have other children, as stated in Scripture and also in other histories that verify this,
unless Joseph could , like Yhvh, cause Mary to conceive in her womb without .... (you know) .. .. ..
well, he couldn't, and
they did it just like other righteous married couples blessed by Yhvh, and ever since then Mary has had an even more beautiful smile on her face.... .... ... peaceful, serene, perfect, and righteous (right with Yhvh).

 

[th1b.taylor]

The RCC teaches that she never did have intercourse with Joseph, even after Jesus' birth. They teach they lived celibate lives until their deaths.

Yep! My two RCC friends instructed me when we discussed Mary Worship that the RCC Church teaches thar Mary died a virgin and I and all my Christian friends, including these two, consider that to be stupid, both Mary and Joseph were chosen of God because they lived the Word as being true and, actually, had they not engaged in coitus they would have sinned against God. God had two commands for Eve and Adam; 1. Do not eat of the Tree of Life and 2. Fill the earth with descendants.

Had they not engaged in coitus, they would have Broken both commands.

On the hymen, Reba, I admire the romantic side of Ladies, I believe most men are drawn that way but I, being a man, see it that God only needed the sacrifice and the blood of the hymen to anoint Jesus with. Some will and some do think me sick for that line of thought but, Joseph did not need that ugly, gross, bed linen to prove her virginity, she already had a child.

Oh, by the way, my latest relapse, 6 or 7 weeks, is in remission and I actually taught my class yesterday and to attend corporate worship. PRAISE GOD! And thanks to those of you that prayed.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Dumb sex in marriage is not sin...

Nope, there's nothing shameful my wife and I ever did, we "was" married in the eyes of our Master and we were obeying His second command to mankind. If it was sinful, I would be mad as thunder at my grand-son-inlaw. But, should the LORD tarry long enough, I expect them to make some beautiful great-grandbabies. And my baby girl does not sin!