What affect does sin have on our will?

[cyberjosh]

Is God sovereign in the all mankind or only in the life of the believer?, those who are his?

God is sovereign over all mankind, both the wicked and the righteous. That much is evident from the OT - one testimony of many being how he guided the leaders of foreign nations to carry out his will and judgement on Israel: Pharoah, the King of Assyria, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.

But you do see my point about how we are free to operate within the sphere of God's bounds don't you?

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Actually that's not the case. "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." Read Romans 7:13-25 to see that our flesh is a slave to sin and if we possess the Holy Spirit, our Spirit is a slave to the Holy Spirit. I, for one, would love to be perfect. So I don't sin because I want to but because sin is living in me, as Paul exlains in that passage. So no, we do not have free will. None of us is above the Holy Spirit or Satan and only the Holy Spirit has victory over Satan.

The battle is in our soul. The only way we or Paul can vacilliate between following God and sometimes unfortunately slipping into the flesh is the result of a freewill choice to choose to put on the old man instead of the new. James 1:14 says, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed" our very own flesh is what supplies that evil desire and Satan merely exploits it (his role is the "enticed" not the "drawn away" nor the causer of our "own desire"). Satan can't entice you to do something you don't desire to do. One person's vices may be different from another's. Some believers Satan could try to entice to drink alcohol and they would flat out resist because they don't desire it, but Satan with the same person might be able to entice them to lust if they have a problem with that. Do you see my point? This isn't just a simple black vs. white fight, there is a middle ground called the soul which allows us to slip into our own flesh (which is not controlled by Satan). We are responsible for our own actions, we can't blame our sins on Satan, and I don't even believe Satan has to even entice us every time either - we could sin solely of ourselves.

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

God is sovereign over all mankind, both the wicked and the righteous. That much is evident from the OT - one testimony of many being how he guided the leaders of foreign nations to carry out his will and judgement on Israel: Pharoah, the King of Assyria, Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.

But you do see my point about how we are free to operate within the sphere of God's bounds don't you?

~Josh

No. We can only respond to what rules us. Phillipians 2:13, "for it is God who works in you to will and act according to his good purpose." And none of us is stronger than God, not even Satan.

 

[cyberjosh]

Phillipians 2:13, "for it is God who works in you to will and act according to his good purpose."

You forget the balancing verse immediately proceeding this: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). Its a cooperation for sanctification, God's doesn't do all the sanctifying work for you. He positionally sanctifies you but you must work on your progressive sanctification - that's your choice, and that's what you will be judged on by Jesus Christ himself in determination of rewards or loss (1 Corinthians 3:10-15). God does not draw us closer by pushing on us compulsory irresistable obedience.

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

You forget the balancing verse immediately proceeding this: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phillipians 2:12). Its a cooperation for sanctification, God's doesn't do all the sanctifying work for you. He positionally anctifies you but you must work on your progressive sanctification - that's your choice and that's what you will be judged on by Jesus Christ himself in determination of rewards or loss (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

~Josh

And verse 13 tells us how; by the power of God, not the human will. If it were the latter, then we wouldn't need God at all. ;-) Those who think it's their own will that makes them holy are guilty of the sin of pride. They couldn't be further from the truth. I really don't think that a lot of born again Christians know exactly how much the Holy Spirit does for them. Humans are all too eager to think that it's their own will that makes good decisions. : "There is no one righteous, not even one." "No one is good but God alone." :wink:

 

[cyberjosh]

And verse 13 tells us how; by the power of God, not the human will. If it were the latter, then we wouldn't need God at all. ;-) Those who think it's their own will that makes them holy are guilty of the sin of pride. They couldn't be further from the truth. I really don't think that a lot of born again Christians know exactly how much the Holy Spirit does for them. Humans are all too eager to think that it's their own will that makes good decisions. : "There is no one righteous, not even one." "No one is good but God alone." :wink:

I don't understand your resistance of the idea that we can act of our own accord. That is unbiblical. You do realize that Paul himself admitted that he himself might become disqualified don't you? We can suffer loss as a result of our own actions. Paul also warned not to recieve the grace of God in vain: now how can we recieve his grace in vain if it is irresistable? You are missing that we have a choice.

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

I don't unserstand you resistance of the idea that we can act of our own accord. That is unbiblical. You do realize that Paul himself admitted that he himself might become disqualified don't you? We can suffer loss as a result of our own actions. Paul also warned not to recieve the grace of God in vain: now how can we recieve his grace in vain if it is irresistable? You are missing that we have a choice.

~Josh

Sorry but Paul himself says "Why do I do that which I do not want to do and that which I want to do I cannot? " Do you think he's lying? :o Of course he isn't. Paul makes it very clear that it's only the power of the Holy Spirit that can transform hearts and minds. He also says, "If I must boast, I boat about my weaknesses so that Christ's power may rest on me." Even Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father."

So sorry, but the bible is about God's power, not human power. Paul never takes credit for God's work in him. So you are in error.

Romans 9:19, "For who resists his will?" No one. So again, once we receive the holy Spirit, God is showing the world what His pwoer can do to people, not our own power. That's an illusion that comes from the sin of pride.

 

[cyberjosh]

Sorry but Paul himself says "Why do I do that which I do not want to do and that which I want to do I cannot? " Do you think he's lying? :o Of course he isn't.

What's your point? He's saying that the things he should be doing he isn't...and its all because of his battle with his flesh. Only God can deliver him from his body of death. Paul makes it clear that the believer occasionally slips into the flesh but he admonishes them as a remedy to walk in the Spirit so they will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Paul makes it very clear that it's only the power of the Holy Spirit that can transform hearts and minds. He also says, "If I must boast, I boat about my weaknesses so that Christ's power may rest on me." Even Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father."

Paul can't sin without the Father? God's responsible when we sin? I thought we were?

And that's exactly my point.

So sorry, but the bible is about God's power, not human power. Paul never takes credit for God's work in him. So you are in error.

You act as if I teach human merit. No, I teach human responsibility in responding to God. Christianity isn't a one decision, one bang deal. It s a constant enduring race and even fight with occasional falls. We are wholly responsible for the falls and any sucess we have is accredited to God's work in us. But we can choose to not listen to God, or do you not believe Christians can backslide?

~Josh

 

[destiny]

I don't understand your resistance of the idea that we can act of our own accord. That is unbiblical. You do realize that Paul himself admitted that he himself might become disqualified don't you? We can suffer loss as a result of our own actions. Paul also warned not to recieve the grace of God in vain: now how can we recieve his grace in vain if it is irresistable? You are missing that we have a choice.

~Josh

Amen, Josh ....the bible is full of scripture that supports free will. If we were all puppets then what would even be the point of arguing trying to change someones mind on a forum?

 

[Bubba]

So sorry, but the bible is about God's power, not human power. Paul never takes credit for God's work in him. So you are in error.

Romans 9:19, "For who resists his will?" No one. So again, once we receive the holy Spirit, God is showing the world what His pwoer can do to people, not our own power. That's an illusion that comes from the sin of pride.

Heidi,
We are in agreement:
John 1:13 (English Standard Version)


13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Grace, Bubba

 

[cyberjosh]

Heidi,
We are in agreement:
John 1:13

Bubba if you believe that then I invite you to tackle my arguements to Heidi. I made some very good points.

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Amen, Josh ....the bible is full of scripture that supports free will. If we were all puppets then what would even be the point of arguing trying to change someones mind on a forum?

Lol. Very true. Thanks.

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

If God “hardened†Pharaoh’s heart , did the ruler really have a fair chance to heed God’s command to “let My people go� Or was he a hapless pawn in God’s plan to emancipate His chosen people?

Pharaoh had as fair a chance as any other person to hear and obey the Lord, but he used his encounter with the living God as a singular opportunity to “prove†his determination and might. This becomes plain when we understand that “hardening†means the “strengthening†of his heart or will.
God did not intervene in Pharaoh’s decisions in a way that took control of Pharaoh’s will. Pharaoh kept complete controlâ€â€and responsibilityâ€â€over his choices. Apparently God had made him to be what we would call a strong-willed individual. So it’s not surprising that he was determined to resist God’s plan. When the text says that God “hardened†or “strengthened†his heart, it is a way of saying that Pharaoh became even more determined; he was acting even more like the strong-willed person that God had made him to be.


It’s interesting that not every Egyptian had the same response to the plagues as Pharaoh did. A number of them joined the Hebrews and left in the Exodus (Ex.12:38). Furthermore, even some of Pharaoh’s own magicians confessed that the miracles of Moses and Aaron were “the finger of God†(Ex. 8:19).

 

[jgredline]

Folks
Has God or will God ever send someone to hell?

 

[Heidi]

Amen, Josh ....the bible is full of scripture that supports free will. If we were all puppets then what would even be the point of arguing trying to change someones mind on a forum?

Where? Please cite even one verse that says we have free will. When the bible uses the word "choose" it always explains by whose power we "choose"; either satan's or the Holy Spirit's. Jesus said; "You did not choose me. I chose you." Paul no more chose to receieve the Holy Spirit than a blind man chooses to see. Only Jesus can heal a spiritually blind person. ;-)

 

[cyberjosh]

Javier,

I detect a strange silence after your, Destiny's, and my posts... Get out the dodge ball.


~Josh

 

[Heidi]

Folks
Has God or will God ever send someone to hell?

Absolutely! It's all over the bible, everywhere. Read Deuteronomy 26 to see what God's plans are for the Jews because of their disobedience. Then read Romans 9:11-25 to see that God prepares many for destruction. Only God can impart justice. But the whole key is that none of us knows who is called so we are completely and totally responsible for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs.

 

[cyberjosh]

Where? Please cite even one verse that says we have free will. When the bible uses the word "choose" it always explains by whose power we "choose"; either satan's or the Holy Spirit's. Jesus said; "You did not choose me. I chose you." Paul no more chose to receieve the Holy Spirit than a blind man chooses to see. Only Jesus can heal a spiritually blind person. ;-)

Heidi,

Please respond to my last post. I have some pressing points which I would like to see answered please.

Thanks.

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

Bubba if you believe that then I invite you to tackle my arguements to Heidi. I made some very good points.

~Josh

The problem is that your points contradict much scripture like Romans 9:11-25, Romans 8:20, Romans 11:32, 2 Corinthians 4:4 and many, many more verses so they can't be correct. I have to get to bed now so I'll tackle this in the morning.

 

[cyberjosh]

The problem is that your points contradict much scripture like Romans 9:11-25, Romans 8:20, Romans 11:32, 2 Corinthians 4:4 and many, many more verses so they can't be correct.

So you say. And you'll never understand if you don't atleast try to answer my posts. Please don't ignore them. Don't get caught in the heresy of dualism like many first & second century "Christian" sects (including Gnostics).

And Heidi, it also seems that you teach a full blown Calvinism in which God condemns ones to hell ahead of time and then makes them do it - for as you quoted: (misapplied) "Who resists his will?". Right? Really? God's will is for none to perish (2 Peter 3:9). Now how did all the atheists who died disbelieving God resist that one?