What affect does sin have on our will?

[jgredline]

Ok
Lets take a look at some simple scriptures....
2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Ok, so if it is Gods will for all to be saved, then why are some not?....

This verse illustrates the opposition of Israel to ''Christ's will''
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!....


Here are now some verses of folks who chose hell of their own free will...
God has never sent a soul to hell...Folks who end up there is because they rejected the messiah....

John 3:18â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed.â€Â

John 3:36â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.â€Â

John 5:39–40â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.â€Â

John 8:24â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.â€Â

John 12:48â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.â€Â

Luke 10:16â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“The one who listens to you [disciples] listens to Me, and the one who rejects you ejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.â€Â

The scriptures are pretty clear......

 

[cyberjosh]

2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Ok, so if it is Gods will for all to be saved, then why are some not?....

Wow, we double whammied on this one Javier. Look at my last post.

~Josh

 

[Heidi]

Ok
Lets take a look at some simple scriptures....
2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Ok, so if it is Gods will for all to be saved, then why are some not?....

This verse illustrates the opposition of Israel to ''Christ's will''
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!....


Here are now some verses of folks who chose hell of their own free will...
God has never sent a soul to hell...Folks who end up there is because they rejected the messiah....

John 3:18â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed.â€Â

John 3:36â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.â€Â

John 5:39–40â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.â€Â

John 8:24â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.â€Â

John 12:48â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.â€Â

Luke 10:16â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“The one who listens to you [disciples] listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.â€Â

The scriptures are pretty clear......

Right. But who gives us the power to do God's will? Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that God gives us the power to believe and do His will. So it is true that we have to do what all those verses say but we can only do it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

2 Corinthians 4:4, "For the god of this age has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."

"You did not choose me, I chose you."

"For many are invited but few are chosen."

"Only the Father knows the Son and Son knows the Father and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

"For the creation was not subkect to frustration by its own choice but by the will of the one who subjected it."

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

"The one who is in you is greater than the one in the world."

"For God works in you to will and act according to his good purpose."

You however are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

"A man is a slave to whatever has mastred him."

There are many, many more verses that show that man has no free will and that God does:

1) the choosing
2) the forgiving
3) the transforming
4) the saving
5) the loving
6) determines our fate

and Satan does:

1) the deceiving
2) Tries to keep us from God

So there are 2 forces at work in the world: God and Satan and the battle is between them. Only the holy Spirit has power over Satan and none of us is more powerful than God or Satan.

So since the bible doesn't conradict itself, then we have to put all verses together and come up with an interpretation that doesnt contradict any scripture. And that is; God is in control of the universe as Jesus tells us; "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father." But since man doesn't know if he is called until he becomes born again, then we are all without excuse. So man thinks he has free will. But in reality, he is either ruled by Satan or God.

 

[jgredline]

Heidi
You are correct...You see this is my point...This is one reason I call my self a calminianist....The bible clearly teaches both the depravity of man and it teaches that the Holy Spirit calls men to himself, giving men the choice to choose or reject the messiah.....

So the bible clearly teaches election.... based on ''Gods'' foreknowledge....
he knew who would choose him and who would reject him....So trully this is a mystery....This however is not a problem because we should embrace that the bible teaches both and be greatfull that the problem is Gods and not ours.....

God will turn away no folk who comes to him.....

 

[Heidi]

Heidi
You are correct...You see this is my point...This is one reason I call my self a calminianist....The bible clearly teaches both the depravity of man and it teaches that the Holy Spirit calls men to himself, giving men the choice to choose or reject the messiah.....

So the bible clearly teaches election.... based on ''Gods'' foreknowledge....
he knew who would choose him and who would reject him....So trully this is a mystery....This however is not a problem because we should embrace that the bible teaches both and be greatfull that the problem is Gods and not ours.....

God will turn away no folk who comes to him.....

Right. So the whole key is that God knows who was elected, but people don't. So people think they have free will but God knows we don't because only he hardens and changes hearts.

 

[jgredline]

Right. So the whole key is that God knows who was elected, but people don't. So people think they have free will but God knows we don't because he hardens and changes hearts.

Exactly..God knew / knows who would choose or reject him...
So who made the choice?

 

[Heidi]

Exactly..God knew / knows who would choose or reject him...
So who made the choice?

God did, before the creation of the world. Nothing can over-ride the holy Spirit as 1 John 4:4 says; "The one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world." So once we receive the holy Spirit, we become a new creation that not even the devil can over-ride. Paul no more chose Jesus than a blind man chooses to see. The Holy Spirit gives us the power to believe and Jesus tells us that he choose to whom he will give the Holy Spirit; those chosen before the creation of the world.

All over the bible, God tells us that he makes people do what he wants. Here's an example in Isaiah 6:10, "Make the heart of this people calloused, make their ears dull and close their eyes." And not even Satan can over-ride God's will.

Another example is 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "For this reason, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

The wrath of God is explained in Romans 1:18-31 and why God gives them over to wicked minds. So God is in complete control of everything that happens in the world because he is not only omniscient, but omnipotent as well.

 

[cyberjosh]

Right. But who gives us the power to do God's will? Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that God gives us the power to believe and do His will. So it is true that we have to do what all those verses say but we can only do it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

2 Corinthians 4:4, "For the god of this age has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."

I don't disagree with you here. I said myself that only by Jesus can we overcome sin (to fulfill God's will):

"That was a physical limitation beyond his control, just as sin (even if we wanted to get out of it) would be out of our control to escape from if it weren't for Jesus. If it weren't for Jesus even the righteous saints of the OT would have been condemned and could not be aquited from their sins (for if you fail in one point of the law you have violated the whole law -James 2:10). And I have seen atheists & such who do desire to quit sinning but lack the means - and Jesus supplies the only means. "

Jesus is the source as conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit.

Would you mind answering my last post in which I quoted you: here? You would help me understand where you are coming from.

~Josh

 

[Guest]

22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

I believe Peter's sermon can answer the question about God's soveirgnty and man's "free will" (I will use this term for the sake of the OP).

Notice in verse 23 that Peter's says that Jesus was delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. This clearly shows that God is soveirgn - that God is in complete control - through God's predetermined and foreknowledge, Jesus was handed over to death.

However - this is not excuse away man's responsibility. Peter continues on to say - "you nailed him to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

Here - Peter puts the responsibility squarly on the shoulders of where it belongs - The Men of Israel (verse 23). It was them (you) that nailed Jesus to the cross, through the hands of the godless, and put Him to death.

Therefore, God's foreknowledge and will does use the godless. God's foreknowledge does not excuse away our responsibility. We are still active participants. God's foreknowledge is not a script that we unknowingly play out.

God - still holds that last card - in verse 24 it was God who "raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power."

 

[Bubba]

Let us use a little logic here. Some suggest that God looks into the future and with foreknowledge He knows who will say yes to Jesus and who will say no and then call this election. Let God's word be true and man a liar. According to Ephesians 2:1-9, if God look into the future all He would see is spiritually dead people. He is the one who makes us alive to that which is spiritual. Imagine a lake of humanity; it is not a bunch of individuals who are able to grasp a hold of the "life line" thrown them (freewill), but a lake of humanity lying on the bottom of the lake with rigor mortis, that God makes alive. Not only does He make the elect alive, He changes their heart to want to grasp the "life line" of Jesus, this is Ephesians 2:1-9.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Bubba if you believe that then I invite you to tackle my arguements to Heidi. I made some very good points.

~Josh

Josh,
I have stated this before, but I will do it again; all the verses which tell us to choose, seek. surrender, knock, obey, abide, etc are the Law, you can not do any of it, only Christ in you can. Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Give Him the glory, for the good your able to do.
Bubba

ps "It is the Spirit who gives life: the flesh profits nothing" John 6:63

 

[Heidi]

Josh,
I have stated this before, but I will do it again; all the verses which tell us to choose, seek. surrender, knock, obey, abide, etc are the Law, you can not do any of it, only Christ in you can. Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Give Him the glory, for the good your able to do.
Bubba

ps "It is the Spirit who gives life: the flesh profits nothing" John 6:63

Amen! :D "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

 

[cyberjosh]

Amen! :D "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

Heidi could you please answer my questions? I will PM you a link to the specific post I am talking about. I want to continue to talk with you, but you ignoring my posts doesn't help. Please, I really do want to see your view on this.

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

This post went completely ignored as well...

How about someone address these verses and show me how they take away mans will.....In particular explain away the highlighted verses....

Ok
Lets take a look at some simple scriptures....
2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Ok, so if it is Gods will for all to be saved, then why are some not?....

This verse illustrates the opposition of Israel to ''Christ's will''
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!....


Here are now some verses of folks who chose hell of their own free will...
God has never sent a soul to hell...Folks who end up there is because they rejected the messiah....

John 3:18â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed.â€Â

John 3:36â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.â€Â

John 5:39–40â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.â€Â

John 8:24â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.â€Â

John 12:48â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.â€Â

Luke 10:16â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“The one who listens to you [disciples] listens to Me, and the one who rejects you ejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.â€Â

The scriptures are pretty clear......

 

[Heidi]

This post went completely ignored as well...

How about someone address these verses and show me how they take away mans will.....In particular explain away the highlighted verses....

Ok
Lets take a look at some simple scriptures....
2 peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Ok, so if it is Gods will for all to be saved, then why are some not?....

This verse illustrates the opposition of Israel to ''Christ's will''
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!....


Here are now some verses of folks who chose hell of their own free will...
God has never sent a soul to hell...Folks who end up there is because they rejected the messiah....

John 3:18â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed.â€Â

John 3:36â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.â€Â

John 5:39–40â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.â€Â

John 8:24â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“Unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.â€Â

John 12:48â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.â€Â

Luke 10:16â€â€Ã¢â‚¬Å“The one who listens to you [disciples] listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.â€Â

The scriptures are pretty clear......

God wants all to be saved just like I'd love for my children to be saved. But God knows that he has to let each individual come to his own understanding of why he ndeeds God. So he allows people to sin to see why they need God. Thus, Romans 11:32.

So again, the whole key is that no one knows whether or not God is drawing him so he thinks he is acting freely. But in reality, God is either drawing that person or he isn't. So God knows who is elect are, but we humans do not. And God wants to keep it that way.

Those who listen to Jesus and do everything in the above verses have the Holy Spirit. And God chooses to whom he will give the Holy Spirit as Jesus tells us in Matthew 11:27-28. He also tells us, "For many are invited, but few are chosen." God wants to show how His power can transform lives, not the power of the human will.

1 John 5:18, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him." John is making it clear tht God is the one who is drawing us, giving us the desire to not sin, and leading us away from temptation, not our human will.

So again, in the verses you quoted, it's only the Holy Spirit who is giving people the power and desire to believe Jesus and follow him. So remember the bible is about God's power, not human power.

Here are some verses about what God does:

Romans 9:22, "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? "

In Leviticus 26:14-39, God makes it clear what he will do to those who disobey him. And it's not pretty. And only God chooses who the believers will be.

So the bottom line is; those who want heaven can have it and those who don't want it won't have it. That's why it's impertive that people don't know if God is drawing them or not so they think they are making their own choice to come to God, when in reality, God is either drawing them or he isn't.

If God saves everybody, than there can be no elect. So the whole key to the free will issue is that man doesn't know who the elect are, only God does. That makes everyone accountable. That's the only interpretation that puts all scripture together, including Romans 9:11-25.

 

[golfjack]

reply

If God asked one to do something one couldn't do, then He would be an unjust God, but God is not unjust, and when He said Believe, He meant you ccan believe. ( The Calvanists, however, felt one could not believe unless God gave one a believing heart).

I don't think there are many old school Calvanists around today, but there doctrines have been watered down to new school Calvanists, which is the doctrine of eternal security, or once saved always saved. I do believe in eterrnal security as long as you stay in Christ. He is able to keep you secure, but just because you are a son of God does not mean you are not a free moral agent. You still have a will of your own, and you can choose to stay in Christ or forsake Christ altogether.




May God bless, Golfjack

 

[jgredline]

God wants all to be saved just like I'd love for my children to be saved. But God knows that he has to let each individual come to his own understanding of why he ndeeds God. So he allows people to sin to see why they need God. Thus, Romans 11:32.

...This is exactly right..He allows....

So again, the whole key is that no one knows whether or not God is drawing him so he thinks he is acting freely. But in reality, God is either drawing that person or he isn't. So God knows who is elect are, but we humans do not. And God wants to keep it that way.

I do not believe God wants to keep it that way at all...Infact through out scripture he says otherwise...Again lets look closer at 2 pet 3:9 and Josh I did notice we came to the same verse by our own free will :-D Just a little humor...Anyway lets take a closer look...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So here Clearly Gods will is clearly shown but we know that it is not accomplished...If Gods will were to be done according to this passage, then the universalism folk would be right...Now we know this is not the case because through out scripture we read that Hell is a real place of torment where real folk will go where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...

The word not willing in the Greek is used as a term of desire...So it is translated correctly...It is Jesus desire that none should perish.....But some do...If man did not have a free will (desires) then indeed all men would be saved....But the bible shows otherwise...

 

[destiny]

The very word "repent" indicates free will, and it is used by God throughout the Bible. God wouldn't have warned the 7 churches in revelation if they had no free will to repent through the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit.
No one would be accountable for anything if we didn't have free will to make our own decisions.

 

[Drew]

Let us use a little logic here. Some suggest that God looks into the future and with foreknowledge He knows who will say yes to Jesus and who will say no and then call this election. Let God's word be true and man a liar. According to Ephesians 2:1-9, if God look into the future all He would see is spiritually dead people. He is the one who makes us alive to that which is spiritual. Imagine a lake of humanity; it is not a bunch of individuals who are able to grasp a hold of the "life line" thrown them (freewill), but a lake of humanity lying on the bottom of the lake with rigor mortis, that God makes alive. Not only does He make the elect alive, He changes their heart to want to grasp the "life line" of Jesus, this is Ephesians 2:1-9.
Bubba

I do not believe that Ephesians 2:1-9 really justifies the conclusion represented in the above post.

I believe that it is simply not correct to take phrases like "dead in trespasses and sin" and "dead in our transgression" and conclude that we are dead in the sense of not being able to "grasp the life line" as an act of free will. I suspect that to draw this conclusion, a person is assuming that the person is also dead "cognitively", and I see no reason to believe this.

This is not a simple matter of "dead means dead - how can a dead person respond freely to the call of God?". Paul describes us as being "dead in our sin". I think that this statement means either the following or both:

1. We are "dead" in a "death sentence to be carried out in the future" sense. We have sinned and the wages of sin is physical death. We are "dead men walking" - the sentence has been passed, but not yet carried out. But we are obviously still alive right now.

2. We are dead in that our sins make it impossible for us to participate in the new "life" in Christ. We are denied that renewed life - we are not rendered cognitively incapable.

 

[Drew]

Notice in verse 23 that Peter's says that Jesus was delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. This clearly shows that God is soveirgn - that God is in complete control - through God's predetermined and foreknowledge, Jesus was handed over to death.

Agree partially. I am now of the mind that Adam might not have fallen and that Jesus need not have died. I suggest that we are being told that God had a plan in case Adam did indeed fall.

However - this is not excuse away man's responsibility. Peter continues on to say - "you nailed him to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

I agree but with some qualifications. No one can be responsible for an act that they did not freely choose to do. The meaning we attribute to the word "responsible" necessiates freedom of contrary choice. If you argue that God treated those who killed Christ like pawns - by robbing them of the freedom to choose not to do it - then these people are not responsible for that specific act. If God merely foreknew that someone would freely choose to nail Jesus to the cross and wove that certainty into His sovereign plan, then there is no problem.

Let's say that I put $ 100 in an envelope that says "Property of Drew, phone number 555.1111" and place it on a table in a coffee shop. Let's say that I have some kind of plan that requires someone to steal the envelope. If I am certain that someone will indeed steal the envelope (however I arrive at that certainty), I need not cause or manipulate anyone into stealing that envelope, yet I can use the certainty of its being stolen to implement some plan.