What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[Deborah13]

It is a really simple and easy answer.

Notice how some translations say "clinging" those translations are closer to the Greek word meaning. She fastened herself to him. Holding on for dear life. Picture a 5 year old clinging to daddies leg going off on deployment.

Mary figured He was back forever to walk on this earth with them and the next order of business was His actual ascension and physical departure........Heck, the disciples were not even going to believe that He was raised. So He needed to prepare them that He was going to leave soon after this.

I have to go with ezrider on this one. Everything about the Messiah's death, resurrection, ascension, the giving of the Holy Spirit, and His return, are represented in the feasts. They are the shadows of the realities. imo, that is where the explanation can be found.

The Greek word translated as 'touched' is used 38 times in 33 verses. I did not find one time that the idea of 'clinging' fit the context.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G680&t=KJV
Now then Thayer's Lexicon has an interesting statement about what Jesus was saying....don't touch me to see if I am in the flesh, I haven't ascended yet. Which would be more understandable considering the conversation with Thomas, that He was flesh and bone.
But it still does not explain why He told her to tell the brethren that He WAS ascending if He wasn't going to do that until 40 days later. The 40 days, is more like the idea of Him passing over from this land into another or from this abode into His Father's house, if we were to look for a shadow.
But more so, I don't see 40 days represented in the feasts? I see the wave sheaf/omar was that day and I see Pentecost 50 days later. But nothing in between. Maybe I am missing something.

 

[JLB]

I have to go with ezrider on this one. Everything about the Messiah's death, resurrection, ascension, the giving of the Holy Spirit, and His return, are represented in the feasts. They are the shadows of the realities. imo, that is where the explanation can be found.

The Greek word translated as 'touched' is used 38 times in 33 verses. I did not find one time that the idea of 'clinging' fit the context.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G680&t=KJV
Now then Thayer's Lexicon has an interesting statement about what Jesus was saying....don't touch me to see if I am in the flesh, I haven't ascended yet. Which would be more understandable considering the conversation with Thomas, that He was flesh and bone.
But it still does not explain why He told her to tell the brethren that He WAS ascending if He wasn't going to do that until 40 days later. The 40 days, is more like the idea of Him passing over from this land into another or from this abode into His Father's house, if we were to look for a shadow.
But more so, I don't see 40 days represented in the feasts? I see the wave sheaf/omar was that day and I see Pentecost 50 days later. But nothing in between. Maybe I am missing something.

There is the possibility that Mary was in her cycle, and would be considered unclean, whereas this law would not apply to Thomas.

The fact still remains that the scripture does say: because you seen Me and believed.


JLB

 

[gracenote]

There is the possibility that Mary was in her cycle, and would be considered unclean, whereas this law would not apply to Thomas.

The fact still remains that the scripture does say: because you seen Me and believed.


JLB

Mary's cycle?
More often than not, that would not take a full 40 days.
Unless the added 10 days has to do with cleanliness in Jewish terms?

 

[JLB]

Mary's cycle?
More often than not, that would not take a full 40 days.
Unless the added 10 days has to do with cleanliness in Jewish terms?

ir would be 7 days.

19 ‘If a woman has a discharge, andthe discharge from her body is blood, she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.
Leviticus 15:19

The scriptures does not say that this was the reason.

JLB

 

[ezrider]

There is the possibility that Mary was in her cycle, and would be considered unclean, whereas this law would not apply to Thomas.

The fact still remains that the scripture does say: because you seen Me and believed.


JLB

At least now your beginning to think. Her menstrual cycle is something I hadn't specifically thought of, but it does fit in the same vane of thought. But how about this, continuing with the thought that his death and resurrection was an offering, and that he had just risen?

Ezekiel 43:26-27 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves. And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord God.

Number 19:11-13 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days. He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean:but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean. Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

 

[gracenote]

I am confused as to how come her cycle would matter here, but then I came o this discussion a little bit on the tardy side.
Sorry to obtrude.

 

[gr8grace3]

I have to go with ezrider on this one. Everything about the Messiah's death, resurrection, ascension, the giving of the Holy Spirit, and His return, are represented in the feasts. They are the shadows of the realities. imo, that is where the explanation can be found.

The Greek word translated as 'touched' is used 38 times in 33 verses. I did not find one time that the idea of 'clinging' fit the context.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G680&t=KJV
Now then Thayer's Lexicon has an interesting statement about what Jesus was saying....don't touch me to see if I am in the flesh, I haven't ascended yet. Which would be more understandable considering the conversation with Thomas, that He was flesh and bone.
But it still does not explain why He told her to tell the brethren that He WAS ascending if He wasn't going to do that until 40 days later. The 40 days, is more like the idea of Him passing over from this land into another or from this abode into His Father's house, if we were to look for a shadow.
But more so, I don't see 40 days represented in the feasts? I see the wave sheaf/omar was that day and I see Pentecost 50 days later. But nothing in between. Maybe I am missing something.

You could be right Deb. I do believe in this one that the context would provide for "Clinging" She was excited to see Him, our first reaction would be to give Him a big ole hug.(And to see if He was real.)
I am not dogmatic on this one. Because I see the possibility that we get a glimpse of our interim body in John 20:17 if Christ was really prohibiting any kind of touch at this point.

 

[gracenote]

You could be right Deb. I do believe in this one that the context would provide for "Clinging" She was excited to see Him, our first reaction would be to give Him a big ole hug.(And to see if He was real.)
I am not dogmatic on this one. Because I see the possibility that we get a glimpse of our interim body in John 20:17 if Christ was really prohibiting any kind of touch at this point.

"Not yet ascended unto the Father."
And yet He had doubting Thomas touch His wounds.
I obviously need to reread the entire Book of John.

 

[ezrider]

I am confused as to how come her cycle would matter here, but then I came o this discussion a little bit on the tardy side.
Sorry to obtrude.

gracenote, I have been asking for an explanation as to why Jesus told Mary in John 20:16-18 to not touch him because he had not as yet ascended to the Father, but eight days later Thomas was invited to touch Jesus. The question was why the difference in between the two in being permitted to touch him. The uncleanness of a women on her menstrual cycle according to the law of Moses is certainly a valid argument when it comes to what was consider unclean to touch.

 

[WIP]

"Not yet ascended unto the Father."
And yet He had doubting Thomas touch His wounds.
I obviously need to reread the entire Book of John.

Your statement that "He had doubting Thomas touch His wounds" may not quite be accurate. The scripture does not say that Thomas actually touched Jesus at all.

Here's the text from John 20 in the NKJV. I do not see where it says Thomas touched Jesus. Instead, immediately after Jesus tells him to go ahead and touch Him, Thomas replies with his statement of belief. It's sort of like Jesus saying a bit sarcastically, "Go ahead and touch me if you don't believe. Believe it Thomas, I am risen."
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[gracenote]

Your statement that "He had doubting Thomas touch His wounds" may not quite be accurate. The scripture does not say that Thomas actually touched Jesus at all.

Here's the text from John 20 in the NKJV. I do not see where it says Thomas touched Jesus. Instead, immediately after Jesus tells him to go ahead and touch Him, Thomas replies with his statement of belief. It's sort of like Jesus saying a bit sarcastically, "Go ahead and touch me if you don't believe. Believe it Thomas, I am risen."
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

You know I never noticed that before!
The text actually doesn't tell us that Thomas touched those wounds.
Yet his response is telling, nonetheless.
This is fascinating

 

[Free]

gracenote, I have been asking for an explanation as to why Jesus told Mary in John 20:16-18 to not touch him because he had not as yet ascended to the Father, but eight days later Thomas was invited to touch Jesus. The question was why the difference in between the two in being permitted to touch him. The uncleanness of a women on her menstrual cycle according to the law of Moses is certainly a valid argument when it comes to what was consider unclean to touch.

With Mary, it's about clinging, not merely touching.

 

[gracenote]

With Mary, it's about clinging, not merely touching.

Thanks. I see that now. I just love to study and learn new things!

 

[dianegcook]

My belief,
Touch me not=do not hold me up

The reason for the prohibition, He afterwards allowed the women to hold Him by the feet. Matt.28:9

On this day, the morrow after the Sabbath, the high priest would be waving the sheaf of the first fruits before the Lord. Lev.23:10,11, while He , the first fruits from the dead, 1Cor.15:23, would be fulfilling the type by presenting Himself before the Father.

 

[gracenote]

My belief,
Touch me not=do not hold me up

The reason for the prohibition, He afterwards allowed the women to hold Him by the feet. Matt.28:9

On this day, the morrow after the Sabbath, the high priest would be waving the sheaf of the first fruits before the Lord. Lev.23:10,11, while He , the first fruits from the dead, 1Cor.15:23, would be fulfilling the type by presenting Himself before the Father.

THANK YOU
I KNEW that He'd been touched at one point or another following the crucifixion.
(had a sneaking hunch it was in Matthew, yet hadn't taken the time to find it before)

 

[ezrider]

My belief,
Touch me not=do not hold me up

The reason for the prohibition, He afterwards allowed the women to hold Him by the feet. Matt.28:9

On this day, the morrow after the Sabbath, the high priest would be waving the sheaf of the first fruits before the Lord. Lev.23:10,11, while He , the first fruits from the dead, 1Cor.15:23, would be fulfilling the type by presenting Himself before the Father.

Thank you for that scripture reference Diane, that certainly adds a slight wrinkle to some of assumptions that He was not actually touched.

Matthew 28:8-10 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid:go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

held
g2902. κρατέω krateō; from 2904; to use strength, i. e. seize or retain (literally or figuratively):— hold (by, fast), keep, lay hand (hold) on, obtain, retain, take (by).
AV (47)- hold 12, take 9, lay hold on 8, hold fast 5, take by 4, lay hold upon 2, lay hand on 2, misc 5;
to have power, be powerful to be chief, be master of, to rule to get possession of to become master of, to obtain to take hold of to take hold of, take, seize to lay hands on one in order to get him into one's power to hold to hold in the hand to hold fast, i. e. not discard or let go to keep carefully and faithfully to continue to hold, to retain of death continuing to hold one to hold in check, restrain

 

[gracenote]

Thank you for that scripture reference Diane, that certainly adds a slight wrinkle to some of assumptions that He was not actually touched.

Matthew 28:8-10 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid:go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

held
g2902. κρατέω krateō; from 2904; to use strength, i. e. seize or retain (literally or figuratively):— hold (by, fast), keep, lay hand (hold) on, obtain, retain, take (by).
AV (47)- hold 12, take 9, lay hold on 8, hold fast 5, take by 4, lay hold upon 2, lay hand on 2, misc 5;
to have power, be powerful to be chief, be master of, to rule to get possession of to become master of, to obtain to take hold of to take hold of, take, seize to lay hands on one in order to get him into one's power to hold to hold in the hand to hold fast, i. e. not discard or let go to keep carefully and faithfully to continue to hold, to retain of death continuing to hold one to hold in check, restrain

I am learning so much here!
This is wonderful!
Thanks for sharing!

 

[Free]

From Vincent's Word Studies:

John 20:17

Touch me not (μή μοῦ ἅπτου)
The verb, primarily, means to fasten to. Hence it implies here, not a mere momentary touch, but a clinging to. Mary thought that the old relations between her Lord and herself were to be renewed; that the old intercourse, by means of sight, sound, and touch, would go on as before. Christ says, "the time for this kind of intercourse is over. Henceforth your communion with me will be by faith through the Spirit. This communion will become possible through my ascending to the Father."

 

[ezrider]

Here is an interesting thought to consider:

When Mary was at the sepulchre she did not know Jesus, but supposed him to be the gardener (John 20:15-17). Here we find were Jesus tells her to touch Him not, for he has not yet ascended. But to go and tell the brethren that He is ascending to the Father (John 20:16-18). Now whether He ascended at that point and then returned to meet the women on the road again the scripture is not clear on. But the interesting thought that I have is in the account in Matthew 28:8-10 where the women had rushed off from the sepulchre to go tell the disciples all that the heard and saw, and then Jesus meets them again on the road as they are on their way to go tell the disciples. Jesus appears unto them again, yet this time they knew Him for who he was, for he knew that they believed without any doubts. What can be said for the disciples on the other hand, well that is another story, for three times did Jesus appear unto them after that He had risen, and each time they did not know who he was.

 

[ezrider]

I am learning so much here!
This is wonderful!
Thanks for sharing!

Your welcome.