What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[JLB]

The only thing I wanted to know concerning this event was what YOU actually saw when he was taken up?

That was before my time.

would you please explain why Jesus told Mary not to touch him,

No. As it would be my opinion.

You have trouble believing what the scriptures say, so I imagine my opinion would go over to well either.

And Why did he instruct her to go and tell the disciples that Jesus has ascended to the Father?

Please show me the scripture where Jesus told Mary that He had already ascended to the Father.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not that it is directly related in any way, but I would like to point to another scripture that talks about ascending and descending.

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Try this one.

No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3:13

The Son of Man who is in heaven.

JLB

 

[ezrider]

Following up on what Jesus told Mary to say to the brethren in John 20:16-18, as Jesus departed to ascend unto the Father, we find Mary's arrival before the disciples in Luke 24:6-11.

Luke 24:6-11 He is not here, but is risen:remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Wow, can you just imagine that. A group that was so close to one another for over 3 years as they walked with Jesus and heard all that he had to tell them, and yet when Mary reminds them of what Jesus had said unto them and what she witnessed in the risen Christ, and yet they did not believe her report? Just think about that.

 

[ezrider]

That was before my time.

If you did not see him go, then how shall you know what to look for when he returns?

 

[ezrider]

Please show me the scripture where Jesus told Mary that He had already ascended to the Father.

I have already posted the scripture and have referenced it several times, but I can not make you read them, that part is all on you.

John 20:17-18 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

As we find out in Like 24:6-11 she came before the disciples and told them all that she had seen and heard, and yet they believed her not.

 

[ezrider]

Luke 24:13-16 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

Luke 24:17-21 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

The two here walked with Jesus, supposing him a stranger because their eyes were held that they should not know him. And they explained to the stranger what they knew of Jesus, and how they still thought that he was to redeem Israel and rule from Jerusalem.

Luke 24:22-23 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

 

[JLB]

Following up on what Jesus told Mary to say to the brethren in John 20:16-18, as Jesus departed to ascend unto the Father, we find Mary's arrival before the disciples in Luke 24:6-11.

Looks like you trying to explain what you want the scriptures to say, then putting a scripture reference to your opinion.

Let's look at the actual scriptures.

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!”

She turned and said to Him,[a]“Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).

17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord,and that He had spoken these things to her. John 20:16-18

for I have not yet ascended to My Father;

Here is the scripture where He actually did ascend.


9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven. Acts 1:9-11


JLB

 

[ezrider]

Here is the scripture where He actually did ascend.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven. Acts 1:9-11

If this is the position that you are going to take, that Jesus did not ascend to the Father until after the 40 days, then please explain your position on the following two question concerning Mary's encounter with the risen Jesus as found in John 20:16-18.

1. Why would Jesus tell Mary to go and say to the Brethren that Jesus said He ascends unto the Father if he was not going to ascend for another 40 days? Why would he tell Mary to tell them, when he could have waited and just told them when he appeared unto them that he will ascend to the father? He didn't tell her to say that He will be ascending, He told her to tell them he was in the act of ascending. Kind of like rushing out of the house in the morning to get to work on time and then the phone rings and you stop to answer, but then politely tell the caller that you are on your way to work and can't talk at the moment, but please tell all of our friends that I am off to work, but that I will come and see them after I am finished.

2. Why would Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him because he has not yet ascended to the Father, but then turn around eight days later when he appeared before them again and Thomas was permitted to touch him and place his fingers in the holes of his hands. If Jesus had not yet ascended until after the 40 days as recorded in Acts 1, then why was Thomas permitted to touch him but Marys was not? You will have to explain this for your assertion about his ascension to have any validity in the face of the other scriptures.

 

[JLB]

1. Why would Jesus tell Mary to go and say to the Brethren that Jesus said He ascends unto the Father if he was not going to ascend for another 40 days?

This is what Jesus said -

Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " John 20:17

'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "

This does not say exactly when. He just says that He has not ascended to the Father, but that He is ascending to the father.

One Chapter later in the book of Acts we find the scripture that shows us when He ascended.

The scripture that records this for us plainly is: until the day in which He was taken up, AFTER...

Read what the scripture says.

He was taken up, AFTER He through the Holy Spirit gave commandments....and presented Himself alive during the forty days.

He was taken up after the forty days!

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. Acts 1:1-3


JLB

 

[JLB]

but then turn around eight days later when he appeared before them again and Thomas was permitted to touch him and place his fingers in the holes of his hands.

Please show me the scripture where Thomas touched Jesus.

So far, you have been caught saying what you want the scriptures to say, but when the scriptures are written out for all to see, we find that the scriptures say something different.




JLB

 

[JLB]

If you did not see him go, then how shall you know what to look for when he returns?

... while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. Acts 1:9

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB said -Please show me the scripture where Jesus told Mary that He had already ascended to the Father.

I have already posted the scripture and have referenced it several times, but I can not make you read them, that part is all on you.

Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;

This plainly says He had not yet ascended to His Father.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

Please show me the scripture where Thomas touched Jesus.

So far, you have been caught saying what you want the scriptures to say, but when the scriptures are written out for all to see, we find that the scriptures say something different.

JLB

In your efforts and attempt to dispute everything, do you forget your own scripture?

John 20:26-27 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them:then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

[JLB]

In your efforts and attempt to dispute everything, do you forget your own scripture?

John 20:26-27 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them:then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

I don't see where Thomas touched Jesus. I do see where Jesus showed the scars to Him.

Look at what Jesus says.

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

Because you have seen Me, and believed....

Jesus didn't say because you have touched me and believed.

JLB

 

[WIP]

I have to agree with JLB on this. It seems you are making assumptions that aren't written, ezrider.

I can tell you right now I am going to work. My traveling to work essentially has begun. I have brushed my teeth, shaved, had breakfast, and made my lunch all in preparation for my day at work. I am going. What I have not told you is that I don't leave my home for another half hour but I am going nonetheless, God willing. Likewise, when Jesus told Mary that he is ascending to the Father, he meant it but he did not reveal to her precisely when He would leave.

There is no mention of Thomas actually reaching out and touching Jesus or putting his hand into His side. When Thomas saw Jesus and realized his error, he immediately responded with, "My Lord and my God!" Touching Jesus was no longer required by him because he believed without any doubt whatsoever.

Just thought I'd throw in a couple penny's worth.

 

[JLB]

When Thomas saw Jesus and realized his error, he immediately responded with, "My Lord and my God!" Touching Jesus was no longer required by him because he believed without any doubt whatsoever.

That is certainly the point the scriptures make.

Well said.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

I have to agree with JLB on this. It seems you are making assumptions that aren't written, ezrider.

I can tell you right now I am going to work. My traveling to work essentially has begun. I have brushed my teeth, shaved, had breakfast, and made my lunch all in preparation for my day at work. I am going. What I have not told you is that I don't leave my home for another half hour but I am going nonetheless, God willing. Likewise, when Jesus told Mary that he is ascending to the Father, he meant it but he did not reveal to her precisely when He would leave.

There is no mention of Thomas actually reaching out and touching Jesus or putting his hand into His side. When Thomas saw Jesus and realized his error, he immediately responded with, "My Lord and my God!" Touching Jesus was no longer required by him because he believed without any doubt whatsoever.

Just thought I'd throw in a couple penny's worth.

I have made no assumptions that aren't written. I have asked questions about that which is written, and yet these questions are ignored and not answered. I can most certainly give you the benefit of doubt as to whether you have actually read the dialog between JLB and myself to understand the question that I have been asking, but that is not a benefit that I can have with JLB at this point.

JLB refuses to address the actual premise of the question, and then carefully twists the subject matter into something entirely different, and then makes that subject the point of his contention. This is what you have responded to in agreeing with JLB, the subject matter that he wants you to respond to, but not the actual question. Are we afraid to question our own assumptions?

Whether Thomas actually touched Jesus was not the point, and yet JLB tried to make the comment and the scripture about the faith and belief of Thomas, and then forced the doubt as to whether Thomas actually touch Jesus or not. But again, that ignores the actual premise of the question that I asked for clarification on his beliefs concerning the ascension of Christ, and he only ascended the one time at the end of the 40 days.

So if JLB will not answer the question, maybe you can give me an answer. It is not about what Thomas did or didn't do; It is about what Jesus said.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

The question is: If Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, the WHY, and I shall repeat one more time for emphasis, WHY did Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him because he had not ascended, but then turn around and INVITE Thomas to touch him, saying reach in thy finger and reach in thy hand if he had not yet ascended? This is the subject of the question: His ascension to the Father and why Jesus told Mary not to touch him but then invited Thomas to reach forth his hand and touch him. WHY? WHY? WHY?

 

[JLB]

WHY did Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him because he had not ascended, but then turn around and INVITE Thomas to touch him, saying reach in thy finger and reach in thy hand if he had not yet ascended?

Because Jesus knew all things, and knowing all things He knew Thomas wouldn't touch Him, but simply believe.

Because you have seen Me, and believed....

Jesus didn't say because you have touched me and believed.

That's the answer!


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

I have made no assumptions that aren't written. I have asked questions about that which is written, and yet these questions are ignored and not answered. I can most certainly give you the benefit of doubt as to whether you have actually read the dialog between JLB and myself to understand the question that I have been asking, but that is not a benefit that I can have with JLB at this point.

JLB refuses to address the actual premise of the question, and then carefully twists the subject matter into something entirely different, and then makes that subject the point of his contention. This is what you have responded to in agreeing with JLB, the subject matter that he wants you to respond to, but not the actual question. Are we afraid to question our own assumptions?

Whether Thomas actually touched Jesus was not the point, and yet JLB tried to make the comment and the scripture about the faith and belief of Thomas, and then forced the doubt as to whether Thomas actually touch Jesus or not. But again, that ignores the actual premise of the question that I asked for clarification on his beliefs concerning the ascension of Christ, and he only ascended the one time at the end of the 40 days.

So if JLB will not answer the question, maybe you can give me an answer. It is not about what Thomas did or didn't do; It is about what Jesus said.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

The question is: If Jesus had not yet ascended to the Father, the WHY, and I shall repeat one more time for emphasis, WHY did Jesus tell Mary not to touch Him because he had not ascended, but then turn around and INVITE Thomas to touch him, saying reach in thy finger and reach in thy hand if he had not yet ascended? This is the subject of the question: His ascension to the Father and why Jesus told Mary not to touch him but then invited Thomas to reach forth his hand and touch him. WHY? WHY? WHY?

It is a really simple and easy answer.

Notice how some translations say "clinging" those translations are closer to the Greek word meaning. She fastened herself to him. Holding on for dear life. Picture a 5 year old clinging to daddies leg going off on deployment.

Mary figured He was back forever to walk on this earth with them and the next order of business was His actual ascension and physical departure........Heck, the disciples were not even going to believe that He was raised. So He needed to prepare them that He was going to leave soon after this.

 

[WIP]

Because Jesus knew all things, and knowing all things He knew Thomas wouldn't touch Him, but simply believe.

Because you have seen Me, and believed....

Jesus didn't say because you have touched me and believed.

That's the answer!


JLB

What he said.