What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[ezrider]

The resurrection to life and the resurrection to judgement happens at Christ's second coming at the Final Judgement. You can read about it in Matt 24:31-46 (ESV).

I have accepted the promise of His Coming and I am being formed in the image of his resurrection. As you have said, you await the resurrection at the final judgement. If that is the path that you have been called forth to, then faithfully walk the path.

You posted the scripture from Matt 24:31, so I would take that passage as your statement that you await the sound of the trumpet. I have called attention to the sound of the trumpet for a reason, so I will ask the question again:

Jesus said he comes as a thief in the night. Does the thief sound a trumpet to let you know he is breaking into your house?

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[ezrider]

Also, why is the resurrection from the dead and of eternall Judgement the doctrines of Christ that we are told we leave behind if we are to move forward on toward perfection as stated in Hebrews 6:1-3?

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus said he comes as a thief in the night. Does the thief sound a trumpet to let you know he is breaking into your house?
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I Thessalonians 4:16 (NLT) states: 'For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves'.

Christ will return with a commanding shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God according to this verse.

Since he comes as a thief in the night, I am left to conclude that we are meant to understand this as metaphorical. It will happen suddenly and unexpectedly. He can't come like a literal thief int he night with a literal trumpet call and like a literal thief in the night. There is metaphor here.

 

[ezrider]

I Thessalonians 4:16 (NLT) states: 'For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves'.

Christ will return with a commanding shout, the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God according to this verse.

Since he comes as a thief in the night, I am left to conclude that we are meant to understand this as metaphorical. It will happen suddenly and unexpectedly. He can't come like a literal thief int he night with a literal trumpet call and like a literal thief in the night. There is metaphor here.

Metaphor? Perhaps we should consider that he come as a ghost?



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[OzSpen]

Metaphor? Perhaps we should consider that he come as a ghost?



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I find that response to be abhorrent and totally unnecessary.

There is metaphorical language in the Scripture and Jesus had no problem using it: 'I am the door' (John 10:9 ESV). 'You are the light of the world' (Matt 5:14 ESV).

God Himself uses figures of speech in Scripture to teach profound truth. The Jesus who comes as a thief in the night (simile) will come with a 'commanding shout' (1 Thess 4 16 NLT).

 

[ezrider]

Metaphor? Perhaps we should consider that he come as a ghost?

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I find that response to be abhorrent and totally unnecessary.

While I am not surprised at your response, I must ask if you actually gave it any thought what so ever before you before you declared it abhorrent and unnecessary?

Do you find the Holy Ghost to be abhorrent and unnecessary? You look for the coming of judgement, I speak of the coming of His Promise, which is the coming of the Spirit of Christ, also known as the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Ghost. He has already come, He is here now, and He is Spirit. You can not see him with your eyes, but through Faith His presence is manifest.

Now in light of your response, I would remind you and others, that the sins of the flesh have been forgiven man, but there is one sin that remains which will not be forgiven unto man.

 

[ezrider]

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 9:28 does not describe an event in which Jesus will appear in the clouds for every eye to behold. Quite the contrary, Hebrews 9:28 actually describes what could be considered a secret coming, because he appears ONLY to those who earnestly wait upon Him. His "second" coming as referred to in Hebrews 9:28 is the coming of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus told us it would be in John 14.

John 14:15-18 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

[OzSpen]

While I am not surprised at your response, I must ask if you actually gave it any thought what so ever before you before you declared it abhorrent and unnecessary?

Do you find the Holy Ghost to be abhorrent and unnecessary? You look for the coming of judgement, I speak of the coming of His Promise, which is the coming of the Spirit of Christ, also known as the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Ghost. He has already come, He is here now, and He is Spirit. You can not see him with your eyes, but through Faith His presence is manifest.

Now in light of your response, I would remind you and others, that the sins of the flesh have been forgiven man, but there is one sin that remains which will not be forgiven unto man.

While I am not surprised at your response, I must ask if you actually gave it any thought what so ever before you before you declared it abhorrent and unnecessary?

Do you find the Holy Ghost to be abhorrent and unnecessary? You look for the coming of judgement, I speak of the coming of His Promise, which is the coming of the Spirit of Christ, also known as the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Ghost. He has already come, He is here now, and He is Spirit. You can not see him with your eyes, but through Faith His presence is manifest.

Now in light of your response, I would remind you and others, that the sins of the flesh have been forgiven man, but there is one sin that remains which will not be forgiven unto man.

I declared: 'I find that response to be abhorrent and totally unnecessary'. It was your response to which I was referring. I said ZERO about the Holy Ghost [Spirit] being 'abhorrent and unnecessary'.

 

[ezrider]

I declared: 'I find that response to be abhorrent and totally unnecessary'. It was your response to which I was referring. I said ZERO about the Holy Ghost [Spirit] being 'abhorrent and unnecessary'.

I'm sorry, maybe my point has been lost on you? Why would you find my response abhorrent and totally unnecessary when my response about him coming as a ghost was in reference to the Holy Ghost, to which I further clarified in my subsequent post?

 

[Free]

I'm sorry, maybe my point has been lost on you? Why would you find my response abhorrent and totally unnecessary when my response about him coming as a ghost was in reference to the Holy Ghost, to which I further clarified in my subsequent post?

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm sorry, maybe my point has been lost on you? Why would you find my response abhorrent and totally unnecessary when my response about him coming as a ghost was in reference to the Holy Ghost, to which I further clarified in my subsequent post?

It was you who asked: 'Do you find the Holy Ghost to be abhorrent and unnecessary?' That's what I find abhorrent and unnecessary that you could ask if I found the Holy Ghost to be abhorrent and unnecessary.

Now you say that you are seeing him (Jesus) coming as a ghost, a reference to the Holy Ghost. I suggest that you become more orthodox in your theology. Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit. What causes you to identify Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God; the Holy Spirit is God; but Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit.

 

[ezrider]

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus.

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 5:39-44
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only.



Jesus came in His Father's name, and he was not received. By the victory over death through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, all power and authority has been given unto him. He has fulfilled the promise declared by the prophets of old, and as promised after his ascension, the Father sent forth the Holy Spirit in the name of Christ as a witness unto the world and recorded for a testimony unto you. The question is, will you receive whom Jesus has sent in His Name? Or shall you wait for the sound of the trumpet to declare your time of judgement?


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[ezrider]

Galatians 4:21-29
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Even so it is now, even unto this day, those who answer to Jerusalem which now is, those who answer to the law and the commandment that came from down from Sinai, live according to the flesh, and they persecute the children of promise and those who are born after the Spirit.


Do you wait for the sound of the trumpet, for the second day is long spent and the third day dawns? The trumpet that you wait to hear, what do you think it calls you to?

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[Free]

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Matthew 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 5:39-44
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only.



Jesus came in His Father's name, and he was not received. By the victory over death through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, all power and authority has been given unto him. He has fulfilled the promise declared by the prophets of old, and as promised after his ascension, the Father sent forth the Holy Spirit in the name of Christ as a witness unto the world and recorded for a testimony unto you. The question is, will you receive whom Jesus has sent in His Name? Or shall you wait for the sound of the trumpet to declare your time of judgement?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with those passages. They do not prove your point nor disprove mine. The NT is abundantly clear that Jesus' return will be visible and knowable to all, and it will immediately precede the Judgement; it will be the end of all suffering, etc., and those things clearly have not happened.

Nowhere does the NT teach that the Holy Spirit coming is the same thing as Jesus' return. Look at what Jesus said the Holy Spirit will do, in the very verse you quoted. For more on the work of the Holy Spirit, you need to consider John 16:7-15.

You are taking things way out of context and this has resulted in significant doctrinal error. You need to begin with verses 1-4 of John 14, for starters. Then there are the passages others have given; there is John 21:22; there is Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor 15:22-26, 35-55 (which is fulfilled in Rev 20); 2 Cor. 5:1-10; etc.

There simply is no way that the NT teaches the coming/sending of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus meant by his return, his second coming. Those are two very different, distinct events.

 

[OzSpen]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with those passages. They do not prove your point nor disprove mine. The NT is abundantly clear that Jesus' return will be visible and knowable to all, and it will immediately precede the Judgement; it will be the end of all suffering, etc., and those things clearly have not happened.

Nowhere does the NT teach that the Holy Spirit coming is the same thing as Jesus' return. Look at what Jesus said the Holy Spirit will do, in the very verse you quoted. For more on the work of the Holy Spirit, you need to consider John 16:7-15.

You are taking things way out of context and this has resulted in significant doctrinal error. You need to begin with verses 1-4 of John 14, for starters. Then there are the passages others have given; there is John 21:22; there is Acts 1:9-11, 1 Cor 15:22-26, 35-55 (which is fulfilled in Rev 20); 2 Cor. 5:1-10; etc.

There simply is no way that the NT teaches the coming/sending of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus meant by his return, his second coming. Those are two very different, distinct events.

Free,

That's an excellent assessment to counter ezrider's position. Who will be returning at Christ's second coming? Matt 24:29-31 (ESV) is very clear:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

The Son of Man, Jesus, will be returning.

Oz

 

[Free]

Free,

That's an excellent assessment to counter ezrider's position. Who will be returning at Christ's second coming? Matt 24:29-31 (ESV) is very clear:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

The Son of Man, Jesus, will be returning.

Oz

Exactly. Matt 24:30 sounds very similar to Acts 1:9-11:

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Visible return to the Father; visible return to Earth. There will be no mistaking it and everyone will know.

 

[ezrider]

There simply is no way that the NT teaches the coming/sending of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus meant by his return, his second coming. Those are two very different, distinct events.

Yes, they are two very distinct events. As are there two very distinct resurrections: The resurrection unto Life by the Spirit of Christ and the resurrection unto Judgement, to the second death and the lake of fire. John 5:29.

The trumpet call is a call to judgement, so if you await the coming of the son of man, you might just find yourself saying Lord, Lord, and hearing nothing but depart from me, for I never knew you. But those to whom receive the promise of His coming, they shall not face the second death, for they shall be found written in the lamb's book of life.

 

[ezrider]

Hebrews 12:18-25
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake; )
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven.

We are not called to the sound of a trumpet, we have been called unto mount Sion, the city of the living God. Only those who have come forth to the resurrection of Judgement are waiting to answer the call of the trumpet. Those who have come forth to the resurrection of Life have answered the call of His Spirit, and they have already been translated into heavenly Jerusalem and mount Sion.

 

[OzSpen]

Exactly! That visible ascension and visible

Exactly. Matt 24:30 sounds very similar to Acts 1:9-11:

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

Visible return to the Father; visible return to Earth. There will be no mistaking it and everyone will know.

Exactly. There was the visible ascension of Jesus and there will be the visible return of Jesus: 'Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen' (Rev 1:7 ESV).

Can you imagine what a Richard Dawkins will say if he were alive at the time of Jesus' visible return? What about the Jesus' Seminar fellows? John Shelby Spong, John Dominic Crossan, Robert Funk, and their ilk. Every adamant atheist, agnostic, sceptic alive will see Him at his return.

What a revelation that will be!

Oz

 

[Free]

Yes, they are two very distinct events. As are there two very distinct resurrections: The resurrection unto Life by the Spirit of Christ and the resurrection unto Judgement, to the second death and the lake of fire. John 5:29.

Both of these resurrections are literal, physical resurrections of the physically dead:

Act 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,
Act 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. (ESV)

Paul clearly states here "that there will be a resurrection of both the just and unjust"--it had not yet happened.

Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. (ESV)

Again, Paul is clearly speaking of a literal, physical resurrection, the same as Jesus', which had not yet happened. And it isn't until the end of Revelation that we see the two resurrections occur. They happen after many things that have yet to take place.

The trumpet call is a call to judgement, so if you await the coming of the son of man, you might just find yourself saying Lord, Lord, and hearing nothing but depart from me, for I never knew you.

But that isn't what the Bible says:

1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (ESV)

The last trumpet signals the resurrection of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous. And again:

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. (ESV)

We see the same thing said again, but not only that, we clearly see in verse 15 that Paul does not believe that believers have already been resurrected nor that Jesus has come already. Your positions on just what the resurrection and second coming of Jesus are, go very much against Scripture, as I have shown.