What do we believe about the Resurrection?

[ezrider]

I am starting this thread so that we might take a closer look at what we believe the resurrection to be, and do those beliefs actually align with what the scriptures says, or have we allowed other images and ideas to influence our understanding of the true resurrection. I know there are some here on this board who will insist repeatedly that the Resurrection is still yet sometime out in the future waiting on the return of Jesus and the rapture, and they have a habit of repeating the same thing over and over again to reaffirm their belief. I thought about putting this thread in the Bible Study forum where debate would be limited, but I think the Apologetics forum will provide more discussion on the subject. I hope that we can have an honest open and respectful dialog and carefully look at the scriptures concerning the Resurrection.

I do not know what other people believe when it comes to the resurrection. Is the resurrection connected with the dead rising up from the graves? Have we allowed the story of Lazarus coming forth from the grave to create an image of the resurrection from the dead in our minds? What is the nature of the resurrection: is it physical or is it spiritual?

I believe the resurrection to be spiritual in nature, so in my posts when I am referring to the dead or the living in context with the resurrection, I consider the dead to be spiritually dead, though in the flesh they are yet alive, and those that are living are as a living spirit.

Before I go any further, I think it is necessary when discussing the resurrection that we keep in mind that there is a resurrection to life and a resurrection to death or damnation, so any discussion should remain cognizant of that fact.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I will have more to say on this passage later on, but I point this out first so we don’t lock into one thought concerning the resurrection, because clearly one thought gives way to life, while another thought reveals death. To understand the resurrection correctly, we must understand both.

Doing a word search through my Bible Study app (KJV) for the word “resurrection” revealed its usage 40 times within the new testament, and none in the old testament. Out of the 40 references, a quarter of them are used in the parallel gospel passages (Matt 22:23-33; Mark 12:18-27; Luke 20:27-38). It is from these passages that inspired my opening questions about what beliefs we bring to our understanding of the resurrection.

Matthew 22:23-33 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

From these passages and from Acts 23:8 we are told that the Sadducees say there is no resurrection, but the Pharisees did believe in a resurrection. As to what the Pharisees actually believed I do not know, but the line of questioning the Sadducees are applying here tends toward the belief in a physical bodily resurrection where they will once again pick up their lives in heaven. But to this line of thinking Jesus told them they were in error, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God. And then he corrected them saying God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. I wonder if Martha believed in a resurrection like the Pharisees or as the Sadducees tried depicting it?

John 11:24-26 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I will have more to say on this passage as it relates to John 5:28-29 and Rev 20:5-6 later on, but for now I want to stay focused on Martha’s belief in a resurrection at the last day, and Jesus correcting her saying I am the Resurrection. This is the first key to understanding the resurrection of the dead: JESUS IS THE RESURRECTION.

 

[ezrider]

So if your thinking on the resurrection at the last day is more in line with that of Martha, or whatever the Pharisees believed, or how the Sadducees presented their understanding of the resurrection, then know that Jesus said that you are in error, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God. So lets look closer at the response that Jesus gave the Sadducees, because this is the second key to understanding the resurrection of the dead

Matthew 22:31-32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

So what is this supposed to mean? To understand this then we must see it within the context of the old and new covenants. The old covenant was a covenant with death (Isaiah 28:15-18; 2 Cor 3:7), because death comes by the law. But the new covenant is a covenant of Grace and of the spirit. To better understand the saying I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob and what Jesus meant in saying God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, then we should refer to Paul’s explanation in the book of Romans,

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 7:8-11 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Through these passages Paul has made it abundantly clear that the power of sin is in the law, for without the law sin was dead, and sin is not imputed where there is no law. Paul informs us that death reigned from Adam to Moses, but without the law death had no power, and so it can be said that the God of Abraham was a God of the living because sin was not imputed unto them, they lived by grace through faith according to the promise. But from the time of Moses until the time of Jesus, under the old covenant death reigned in the world, and the Law gave power unto death through sin. As we move forward from the time of Jesus, we have entered into the new covenant of grace through faith where the Lord promised that our sins would be remembered no more (Jer 31:31-34). We find the old covenant made obsolete and ready to vanish away (Heb 8:13).

Though sin is still in this world, under the new covenant in Christ we are no longer under the law, so that where there is no law, then sin is not imputed unto us, and death has lost it power and no longer reigns in the world. And through his crucifixion Christ has become death for us.

1 Cor 15:55-57 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So what is this victory that we have through our Lord Jesus Christ? Is it not the victory over death? And how has he provided us with this victory? The answer is through the resurrection of Christ. In his response to the Sadducees Jesus said as touching the resurrection, that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Yet Jesus saying that I am the Resurrection provided the means through his death and resurrection to be Lord of both the living and the dead (again, I speak of spiritual life and death).

Romans 14:7-9 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

This brings us back to the first point that I made concerning the resurrection, and that there is a resurrection to life and a resurrection to death (John 5:28-29). Jesus is the resurrection, and for this end Christ both died and rose again that he might be Lord of the both the dead and the living. Through his resurrection, he is now Lord both to those who still serve obedience to sin under the law and remain spiritually dead under the resurrection of damnation, as well as those living according to Faith by Grace under the new covenant with out the law under the resurrection of life.

I could probably go on and on, but at this point I think I have probably said enough that we might begin a discussion on the resurrection. I open this up and welcome your thoughts and comments. I only ask that we remain polite and respectful of each others beliefs. None of us, and that includes myself are ever really willing to concede that we might hold certain doctrines in error until we are truly secure in our faith in Christ and are able to question these doctrine to even know that we hold them in error.

 

[Butch5]

I think the resurrection is quite simply the raising of the dead t life as pictured in Ezekiel 37.

The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them,`O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 `Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
6 "I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say,`Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:1-14 NKJ)

 

[Free]

I believe the resurrection to be spiritual in nature, so in my posts when I am referring to the dead or the living in context with the resurrection, I consider the dead to be spiritually dead, though in the flesh they are yet alive, and those that are living are as a living spirit.
.......
I will have more to say on this passage as it relates to John 5:28-29 and Rev 20:5-6 later on, but for now I want to stay focused on Martha’s belief in a resurrection at the last day, and Jesus correcting her saying I am the Resurrection. This is the first key to understanding the resurrection of the dead: JESUS IS THE RESURRECTION.

The resurrection, as in the final resurrection, is physical. There is simply no other way it can be understood.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. (ESV)

There shouldn't be any need for me to post proof that Jesus was physically raised from the dead. This alone puts the argument to rest.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
...
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
...
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

Notice that this chapter first speaks of the dead coming back to life, the first resurrection, and then at the end of the thousand years and the following battle, the dead are then raised and judged. There simply is no way around the fact that the final resurrection is physical.

 

[Lady Terra]

For me, my life was resurrected the moment I began to believe in Christ and except his gift of eternal life. I was no longer dead in my trespasses and sin.

 

[ezrider]

The resurrection, as in the final resurrection, is physical. There is simply no other way it can be understood.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Co 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. (ESV)

There shouldn't be any need for me to post proof that Jesus was physically raised from the dead. This alone puts the argument to rest.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
...
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
...
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

Notice that this chapter first speaks of the dead coming back to life, the first resurrection, and then at the end of the thousand years and the following battle, the dead are then raised and judged. There simply is no way around the fact that the final resurrection is physical.

Thank you for your response and for the scriptures from 1 Cor 15:12-23. These are definitely relevant scriptures in discussing the resurrection, I am just unclear as to how you are relating these scriptures to the idea of a physical resurrection; I simply don't see it. What I do see within these these scripture is a debate that has arisen where some say there is no resurrection from the dead, much the same as the Sadducees believed. Paul then tells them if there is no resurrection, then Christ is not risen, and their faith is in vain and you are yet in your sins. I find that Paul when touching on the resurrection always spoke of the resurrection of Christ and Christ alone.

Jesus told the Sadducess that they were in error, not knowing the scripture nor the power of God. Paul basically tells those who were claiming there was no resurrection as the Sadducees also believed saying some have not the knowledge of God.

1 Cor 15:33-34 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

You said in your opening statement the following: "The resurrection, as in the final resurrection, is physical. There is simply no other way it can be understood." I told you in the OP that I believe the resurrection to be spiritual in nature, and you have stated that you believe it is a physical resurrection and there is simply no other way it can be understood. I would ask you to reconsider based upon the following scripture, or at least try to justify why you believe the resurrection is physical in light of these scriptures.

1 Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[ezrider]

I think the resurrection is quite simply the raising of the dead t life as pictured in Ezekiel 37.

The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them,`O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 `Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
6 "I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say,`Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:1-14 NKJ)

Butch5, I am not sure what relevance you find with Ezekiel 37 to the resurrection. Are you referencing this prophecy of the depiction of the dry bone coming together as a picture of the resurrection like the character of the High Priest Imhotep in the 1999 movie The Mummy?

Ezekiel 37 is a prophecy concerning the establishment of the new covenant that was confirmed in Christ.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. This is the same covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Daniel 9:24-27.

The picture of the dry bones coming together is a vision of the people of Israel coming back to the Lord from wherever he had driven them, for Jesus was sent first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I find this prophecy from Ezekiel 37 aligns with that from Jer 23.

Jeremiah 23:5-8 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, the Lord our Righteousness. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

In retrospect, maybe you quoted Ezekiel 37 relative to the phrase when I have open your graves rather than the Mummy depiction, in which case I apologize. But none the less, even the scriptures from this prophecy also confirm that the Lord will put His Spirit within us, and by His Spirit we shall live. We shall live by Spirit in the Resurrection of Christ, which is the promise of the new covenant.

I believe that this particular prophecy from Ezekiel 37 has already been fulfilled. Ezekiel 37:13 was fulfilled as recorded in Mathew 27.

Matthew 27:50-54 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God
.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, I am not sure what relevance you find with Ezekiel 37 to the resurrection. Are you referencing this prophecy of the depiction of the dry bone coming together as a picture of the resurrection like the character of the High Priest Imhotep in the 1999 movie The Mummy?

Ezekiel 37 is a prophecy concerning the establishment of the new covenant that was confirmed in Christ.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. This is the same covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Daniel 9:24-27.

The picture of the dry bones coming together is a vision of the people of Israel coming back to the Lord from wherever he had driven them, for Jesus was sent first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I find this prophecy from Ezekiel 37 aligns with that from Jer 23.

Jeremiah 23:5-8 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, the Lord our Righteousness. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

In retrospect, maybe you quoted Ezekiel 37 relative to the phrase when I have open your graves rather than the Mummy depiction, in which case I apologize. But none the less, even the scriptures from this prophecy also confirm that the Lord will put His Spirit within us, and by His Spirit we shall live. We shall live by Spirit in the Resurrection of Christ, which is the promise of the new covenant.

I believe that this particular prophecy from Ezekiel 37 has already been fulfilled. Ezekiel 37:13 was fulfilled as recorded in Mathew 27.

Matthew 27:50-54 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God
.

I quoted it because it depicts the resurrection. I'm not sure why you think has been fulfilled. Christ is not reigning on the earth today. You quoted Jer. 23, however, it doesn't appear to me that Judah and Israel are dwelling in peace. The prophecy in Ezekiel says,

14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:14 NKJ)

I don't think what happened recorded in Mat 27 fulfills this. Those who rose in Jesus day went into the city. Israel was not given their land at that time. God promised the land to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as a possession olam. That certainly hasn't happened yet. I don't know that Israel can be placed in their land without that happening.

 

[ezrider]

I quoted it because it depicts the resurrection.

If you would be so kind, could you please explain in your own words how you see this as a depiction of the resurrection? I am not disagreeing with you by saying it does not depict the resurrection, I just would like to understand more how you understand this prophecy as a depiction of the resurrection.

I'm not sure why you think has been fulfilled.

Why do I believe this has already been fulfilled? Because this was a prophecy concerning the establishment of the new covenant. The new covenant that was confirmed in the blood of Christ through his sacrifice on the cross. He has established his everlasting covenant of peace.
In Matthew 12:39-42 Jesus said and evil and adulterous generation seek after a sign, and there shall be no sign given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet. The people coming forth out of the graves in Ezekiel 37:12-13 is the sign that was given so that the people might know that it is the Lord that has done this. Matthew 27:50-54 records the fulfillment of this Ezekiel prophecy.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If as you say this prophecy has not been fulfilled, then the Spirit of the Lord has not been sent forth to dwell in our hearts, and we are yet in our sins and of all me most miserable. If this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, then how could Paul state that we are the temple of God and that the Spirit dwells within us in 1 Corinthians 3:16?

You quoted Jer. 23, however, it doesn't appear to me that Judah and Israel are dwelling in peace.

Appearances can be deceiving. I can understand why you might make such a statement as this. How can we claim to be dwelling at peace when the threat of violence surrounds us at any moment. But I think this is a misapplication of the peace that the Lord promised through his new covenant, which is his everlasting covenant of peace. Somewhere along the line it seems like the idea of the Covenant of Peace that the Lord promised somehow morphed into this idea that man would suddenly live in peace with one another. But the new covenant was not a covenant between man and man that they should live in peace. The new covenant is covenant of Peace between God and man. A covenant with better promises where our sins and iniquities are no longer remembered, a covenant with no more curse, and the wrath of the Lord withheld, that they might live in peace and without fear that they might come to know the Lord.

Isaiah 54:6-10
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

 

[Butch5]

If you would be so kind, could you please explain in your own words how you see this as a depiction of the resurrection? I am not disagreeing with you by saying it does not depict the resurrection, I just would like to understand more how you understand this prophecy as a depiction of the resurrection.

It seems pretty clear to me, there are the components of dead bodies coming together and life being put back into them.

Why do I believe this has already been fulfilled? Because this was a prophecy concerning the establishment of the new covenant. The new covenant that was confirmed in the blood of Christ through his sacrifice on the cross. He has established his everlasting covenant of peace.
In Matthew 12:39-42 Jesus said and evil and adulterous generation seek after a sign, and there shall be no sign given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet. The people coming forth out of the graves in Ezekiel 37:12-13 is the sign that was given so that the people might know that it is the Lord that has done this. Matthew 27:50-54 records the fulfillment of this Ezekiel prophecy.

The prophecy says that God will bring them into their land. I'm not sure how you see that fulfilled when the Jews were under Roman occupation and subsequently removed from the land.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them:and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If as you say this prophecy has not been fulfilled, then the Spirit of the Lord has not been sent forth to dwell in our hearts, and we are yet in our sins and of all me most miserable. If this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, then how could Paul state that we are the temple of God and that the Spirit dwells within us in 1 Corinthians 3:16?

You bolded the key part. Is the tabernacle of God in Jerusalem today? I don't see anything that would indicate that Christ is reigning in Jerusalem a present.

Appearances can be deceiving. I can understand why you might make such a statement as this. How can we claim to be dwelling at peace when the threat of violence surrounds us at any moment. But I think this is a misapplication of the peace that the Lord promised through his new covenant, which is his everlasting covenant of peace. Somewhere along the line it seems like the idea of the Covenant of Peace that the Lord promised somehow morphed into this idea that man would suddenly live in peace with one another. But the new covenant was not a covenant between man and man that they should live in peace. The new covenant is covenant of Peace between God and man. A covenant with better promises where our sins and iniquities are no longer remembered, a covenant with no more curse, and the wrath of the Lord withheld, that they might live in peace and without fear that they might come to know the Lord.

Isaiah 54:6-10
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

We? The prophecy is to Israel, are you and Israeli? Does Israel possess the land that God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Actually, we are those three men?

 

[Free]

Thank you for your response and for the scriptures from 1 Cor 15:12-23. These are definitely relevant scriptures in discussing the resurrection, I am just unclear as to how you are relating these scriptures to the idea of a physical resurrection; I simply don't see it. What I do see within these these scripture is a debate that has arisen where some say there is no resurrection from the dead, much the same as the Sadducees believed. Paul then tells them if there is no resurrection, then Christ is not risen, and their faith is in vain and you are yet in your sins. I find that Paul when touching on the resurrection always spoke of the resurrection of Christ and Christ alone.

Jesus told the Sadducess that they were in error, not knowing the scripture nor the power of God. Paul basically tells those who were claiming there was no resurrection as the Sadducees also believed saying some have not the knowledge of God.

1 Cor 15:33-34 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

You said in your opening statement the following: "The resurrection, as in the final resurrection, is physical. There is simply no other way it can be understood." I told you in the OP that I believe the resurrection to be spiritual in nature, and you have stated that you believe it is a physical resurrection and there is simply no other way it can be understood. I would ask you to reconsider based upon the following scripture, or at least try to justify why you believe the resurrection is physical in light of these scriptures.

1 Cor 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead.It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

What you are doing by highlighting those select words in verse 44, is presuming certain meanings on "natural" and "spiritual," meanings which completely ignore the context.

Let's go further back:

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also tome. (ESV)

Very clearly then, just as the gospels and Acts show, Jesus was physically raised from the dead. Yet even then he could just appear and disappear at will; there was something entirely different about his mode of being. He was still a physical being but a glorified physical being. And this is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 15 :42-45 when he speaks of perishable/imperishable, dishonor/glory, weakness/power, natural/spiritual. To further the point, look at what verse 45 says: 'Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

So we just as we can't take the meaning of "spirit" in verse 45 to mean that Jesus is spirit, so we need to use the context to consider what Paul is meaning by "natural body" and "spiritual body." The whole context of being raised from the dead starts in verse 3, where Paul speaks of a physical resurrection. This gives us a very strong reason to then understand the rest of the discussion on the final resurrection and what sort of existence we will have--it will be in physical bodies that have somehow been changed. There is no reason to believe that we will have some sort of bodiless existence.

Looking at more of the context:

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Co 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (ESV)

Note that in verseWe shall be like Jesus and Paul is clear that it is the body that is changed, just as Jesus' physical body was changed. This is something that John agrees with:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (ESV)

And very importantly, I will repost verses 20-23:

1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. (ESV)

This is significant for at least a couple of reasons. Firstly, Paul twice says that Jesus' resurrection is the "firstfruits." This means that what happened to Jesus is what will happen to us; there is no difference. Second, Paul contrasts the physical death that Adam brought with the resurrection, being "made alive," of believers.

This whole passage in 1 Cor 15 is about being raised physically; that is what the context shows. There simply is no suggestion anywhere in Scripture that we lose our bodies and that those who are dead are only raised spiritually. We are raised physically just as Jesus was raised physically.

 

[ezrider]

What you are doing by highlighting those select words in verse 44, is presuming certain meanings on "natural" and "spiritual," meanings which completely ignore the context.

I highlighted those words simply to draw attention to them because the verse perfectly echoed what my thoughts were. That the resurrection is spiritual in nature, for the scripture plainly states: So also is the resurrection of the dead, is is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. No further context is required for me to grasp its meaning. And yet the full context for this this passage actually begins with verse 35 with the question how are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come (1 Cor 15:35-44). The answer is described as a seed that must first fall to the ground and die before it can spring forth a new plant. This culminates with the understanding that in the resurrection of the dead, we are first sown in a natural body, but raised a spiritual body.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

In the resurrection of the dead we bear both these images simultaneously, both the natural and the spiritual. We die daily to the natural body, but live unto the spiritual.

2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

So we just as we can't take the meaning of "spirit" in verse 45 to mean that Jesus is spirit, so we need to use the context to consider what Paul is meaning by "natural body" and "spiritual body." The whole context of being raised from the dead starts in verse 3, where Paul speaks of a physical resurrection. This gives us a very strong reason to then understand the rest of the discussion on the final resurrection and what sort of existence we will have--it will be in physical bodies that have somehow been changed. There is no reason to believe that we will have some sort of bodiless existence.

Why do you assume that a Spiritual body is somehow a bodiless existence? When Moses and Elijah appeared together with Jesus at the mount of transfiguration, they obviously had some form of a bodily appearance, but was it physical? And what happened to the physical body of Jesus that day upon the Mount? I don't know. Did he take on a Spiritual Body at that point? I couldn't not say. But why were the disciples instructed to tell no one the vision till after he had risen? (Matt 17:1-9). Ironically, after he had risen and first appeared unto them, He walked with them and talked with them, showed them all the things in the scriptures that pertained to him, and yet they new him not. Even when they sat down at sup with him, they did not know him until he break bread with them. And as soon as they perceived who he was, he disappeared. (Luke 24)

This whole passage in 1 Cor 15 is about being raised physically; that is what the context shows. There simply is no suggestion anywhere in Scripture that we lose our bodies and that those who are dead are only raised spiritually. We are raised physically just as Jesus was raised physically.

I am not here to argue or debate with you about your beliefs. I am not here to tell you that you are wrong or that I am right. If you believe the resurrection to the physical, then that is your understanding at this time. My understanding just happens to be different, but that makes neither of us either right or wrong; it is simply what we each believe. I have tried as best I can to explain why I see the resurrection in a spiritual nature, and I have tried to express the understanding that abides within my heart. I plainly stated in my OP that I do not know what others believe about the resurrection, hence the title of the thread, what do we believe about the resurrection? How am I to understand what you believe, or more importantly why you believe it the way that you do unless you first explain it to me? Simply quoting certain scriptures does not make an explanation, because it is evident that two people can often see the same scripture in a much different light. If you want me to understand how you see or understand these things, then you will have to do more than just quote some verses, will have to express your understanding of them in your own words so I may know where you are coming from.

I seems to me that you keep bringing in the "physical" resurrection of Jesus from the tomb, rising again on the third day, into these other scriptures and then impart its meaning into them. But then something occurred to me. It appears that you might be equating the moment we put off this wretched body of a man and take on our glorified bodies as the resurrection from the dead. I do not account the moment of our transfiguration into glorified bodies as the resurrection. As I said in the OP and as it is written in John 11:24-26, Jesus is the Resurrection.

So maybe that you, or anyone else who happens to read this can better understand the foundation from which is speak concerning the resurrection of the dead: I do not hold that the resurrection is to be seen as a one time singular event other than the one resurrection event of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is to my understanding from the Lord, that the resurrection of the dead is not about the resurrection of our own physical/spiritual body, but rather the resurrection from the dead concerns our relationship to the Lord within the Resurrection of Christ.

If I were to go to the airport tomorrow and catch a flight to the east coast, I would surely have to catch a connecting flight to reach my destination. Now because I departed in one plane and arrived in another does not mean that I did not fly to get there, nor does it mean the flights were very much different from one another. Both experienced a little weather and some bumpy spots along the way that I trusted to the pilot to see me through. And yet for all I know, I departed on my journey in the body of one plane, and arrive at my destination in the body of another. And for all of that, in the end it is not the body that matters, but rather the journey that brings us to our destination instead.

 

[OzSpen]

I highlighted those words simply to draw attention to them because the verse perfectly echoed what my thoughts were. That the resurrection is spiritual in nature, for the scripture plainly states: So also is the resurrection of the dead, is is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. No further context is required for me to grasp its meaning. And yet the full context for this this passage actually begins with verse 35 with the question how are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come (1 Cor 15:35-44). The answer is described as a seed that must first fall to the ground and die before it can spring forth a new plant. This culminates with the understanding that in the resurrection of the dead, we are first sown in a natural body, but raised a spiritual body.

Ezrider,

You say the resurrection is spiritual in nature but after his 800 pages of extensive research on resurrection in Judaism and the NT, N T Wright states, 'Neither Paul nor any other early Christian could have conceived of a "resurrection from the dead" which left a body in the tomb' (2003, The Resurrection of the Son of God, Minneapolis: Fortress Press, p. 321, n. 21).

Oz

 

[Chopper]

I highlighted those words simply to draw attention to them because the verse perfectly echoed what my thoughts were. That the resurrection is spiritual in nature, for the scripture plainly states: So also is the resurrection of the dead, is is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. No further context is required for me to grasp its meaning. And yet the full context for this this passage actually begins with verse 35 with the question how are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come (1 Cor 15:35-44). The answer is described as a seed that must first fall to the ground and die before it can spring forth a new plant. This culminates with the understanding that in the resurrection of the dead, we are first sown in a natural body, but raised a spiritual body.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

In the resurrection of the dead we bear both these images simultaneously, both the natural and the spiritual. We die daily to the natural body, but live unto the spiritual.

2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.



Why do you assume that a Spiritual body is somehow a bodiless existence? When Moses and Elijah appeared together with Jesus at the mount of transfiguration, they obviously had some form of a bodily appearance, but was it physical? And what happened to the physical body of Jesus that day upon the Mount? I don't know. Did he take on a Spiritual Body at that point? I couldn't not say. But why were the disciples instructed to tell no one the vision till after he had risen? (Matt 17:1-9). Ironically, after he had risen and first appeared unto them, He walked with them and talked with them, showed them all the things in the scriptures that pertained to him, and yet they new him not. Even when they sat down at sup with him, they did not know him until he break bread with them. And as soon as they perceived who he was, he disappeared. (Luke 24)



I am not here to argue or debate with you about your beliefs. I am not here to tell you that you are wrong or that I am right. If you believe the resurrection to the physical, then that is your understanding at this time. My understanding just happens to be different, but that makes neither of us either right or wrong; it is simply what we each believe. I have tried as best I can to explain why I see the resurrection in a spiritual nature, and I have tried to express the understanding that abides within my heart. I plainly stated in my OP that I do not know what others believe about the resurrection, hence the title of the thread, what do we believe about the resurrection? How am I to understand what you believe, or more importantly why you believe it the way that you do unless you first explain it to me? Simply quoting certain scriptures does not make an explanation, because it is evident that two people can often see the same scripture in a much different light. If you want me to understand how you see or understand these things, then you will have to do more than just quote some verses, will have to express your understanding of them in your own words so I may know where you are coming from.

I seems to me that you keep bringing in the "physical" resurrection of Jesus from the tomb, rising again on the third day, into these other scriptures and then impart its meaning into them. But then something occurred to me. It appears that you might be equating the moment we put off this wretched body of a man and take on our glorified bodies as the resurrection from the dead. I do not account the moment of our transfiguration into glorified bodies as the resurrection. As I said in the OP and as it is written in John 11:24-26, Jesus is the Resurrection.

So maybe that you, or anyone else who happens to read this can better understand the foundation from which is speak concerning the resurrection of the dead: I do not hold that the resurrection is to be seen as a one time singular event other than the one resurrection event of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is to my understanding from the Lord, that the resurrection of the dead is not about the resurrection of our own physical/spiritual body, but rather the resurrection from the dead concerns our relationship to the Lord within the Resurrection of Christ.

If I were to go to the airport tomorrow and catch a flight to the east coast, I would surely have to catch a connecting flight to reach my destination. Now because I departed in one plane and arrived in another does not mean that I did not fly to get there, nor does it mean the flights were very much different from one another. Both experienced a little weather and some bumpy spots along the way that I trusted to the pilot to see me through. And yet for all I know, I departed on my journey in the body of one plane, and arrive at my destination in the body of another. And for all of that, in the end it is not the body that matters, but rather the journey that brings us to our destination instead.

I really want to commend you on this thread ezrider. You really have my spiritual juices flowing. When I read in your thread, "Jesus is the resurrection!" and Matthew 22:31 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." it brought back some serious pondering on just what all that meant. Then the Text, John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

I have come to the conclusion that in Jesus, because He is the resurrection, spiritually, I have been resurrected from the death that Adam introduced and passed on to me. Because I am in the resurrected Jesus, and He is in me, death has no hold on me. I think that the resurrection to life has already happened in my life.

These are preliminary thoughts that I've held for some time. Am I in the ball park ezrider? At any rate I want to hear more from you.

 

[ezrider]

Chopper posted this in another thread, and because of its relevance to this topic I wanted to copy into this thread so it and my accompanying comment in response to it can become a part of this discussion.

Thank you ezrider, I liked the resurrection of Jonah because he was a man like me who experienced certain death in the belly of that great fish. The difference between Jonah and me is, He caused a large City to repent because God caused His grace to enter that big belly, and caused Jonah to be vomited out of the fish. Jonah was dead, and then was alive thru a resurrection and continued to live....In my case, I was dead in my sins, but in Jesus' grace, I became a new creation thru the spiritual resurrection from death to life. I have been resurrected to a living position as a bond Slave of Jesus.

As you say, Jesus is the resurrection! Everything I am is resurrected. Spiritually I'm not under the Law which caused me to sin. I am free to live a new covenant expression of peace, love and joy because I'm alive. I was dead, but now I live . I like this portion of Scripture.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

I don't know if I'm even close to what you are proposing, These are just my thoughts because I know that I have so very much of LIFE in me. And God uses me because He has made me alive from the dead. I have experienced a lot of miracles that had their origin in the living God, If I had death within me, I would have nothing useful for God to use. But, I'm alive, never to die any more. Oh my body will change when Jesus comes after me to take me to His place in the finished Kingdom, still alive, I never died. What Jesus accomplished on the Cross and said "it is finished" I boast in the work of Jesus since He abolished death in me, and gave me new life.

 

[ezrider]

Chopper's characterization of Jonah made me realize something. Why was Jonah in the belly of the whale in the first place. Was it not because he refused to go and declare the Lord's mercy and grace if they would turn from their evil ways. Jonah in his mind thought that Nineveh should have been destroyed. He wanted to see God's Judgement, and so he spent three days in the belly of the whale, and as you said Chopper, the Grace of God worked upon Jonah while he was belly of the beast until he was ready to be cast forth to go proclaim the salvation of the Lord. The three days in the belly of the beast was the work of the Lord transforming him from a child of wrath into a child of Grace to go forth and proclaim his salvation.

As in the Resurrection of Christ, Jonah first died as a prophet of wrath to rise again a prophet of salvation. I contrast this to another thought. I am reminded of a story in the gospels where Jesus and the disciples were rejected coming into a certain city. The disciples asked Jesus if they should call down fire from heaven as Elijah did. Jesus rebuked them in saying "know you not what Spirit you are of?

Elijah was a prophet of wrath and called down fire from heaven in judgement. But Jesus cautioned they we are not of that spirit. The sign of Jonah represents our transformation in the Resurrection of Christ from the spirit of Elijah and the wrath of God to the Spirit of Christ and the salvation of the Lord. We die to the law and the old covenant that speaks of wrath and death, to awaken under the new covenant with the confidence in the Grace of the Lord and the salvation through the resurrection of Christ to live by His Spirit as his image is created within us.

The sign of Jonah presents the two sides to the Resurrection of Christ (John 5:29). The Spirit of Elijah and the Spirit of Christ. If we are preaching a message of sin, and wrath and Judgement, then we are of the Spirit of Elijah. But if we can live displaying the grace and mercy of the Lord toward others, and to proclaim his salvation and the gospel of his kingdom, then are we of the Spirit of Christ.

 

[jocor]

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.​

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, YHWH cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Yeshua will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Messiah shall rise first:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Yeshua, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Messiah a thousand years.
​

Concerning Mat 22:32, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If Abraham is physically dead (as well as Isaac and Jacob), how will the following verse be fulfilled?

Mat_8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.​

​

 

[Karl]

Personally I believe there needs to be some Biblical criteria and guidelines on this subject before it can be discussed intelligently, ....otherwise it is all just personal opinions and we all know in the Greek the word for opinion is heresy.

Before we can discuss resurrection, life needs to be addressed, when we understand the Biblical signification of life and how God intended us to understand it, then the meaning of resurrection can be understood, without the correct understanding of life and its principles resurrection will never be understood.

 

[ezrider]

Personally I believe there needs to be some Biblical criteria and guidelines on this subject before it can be discussed intelligently, ....otherwise it is all just personal opinions and we all know in the Greek the word for opinion is heresy.

What, do we seek a LAW that we must follow and obey before we will permit the Lord to reveal his truth unto us? And yes, as a matter of fact anything that is not the literal verse word for word is considered an opinion. I have a Bible that I am quite capable of reading on my own. I do not come to this site that someone may teach me the Bible, I come to read their thoughts and opinions. Is it how I see it? Why do the they think differently than I? Do I really understand it as I should? Only by their "opinions" can I question my own understanding and allow the Lord to reveal His truth in me.

Before we can discuss resurrection, life needs to be addressed, when we understand the Biblical signification of life and how God intended us to understand it, then the meaning of resurrection can be understood, without the correct understanding of life and its principles resurrection will never be understood.

How should we first address "life" before we can begin to discuss the resurrection, when the only knowledge we have of life is found in the resurrection of Christ?

 

[OzSpen]

Personally I believe there needs to be some Biblical criteria and guidelines on this subject before it can be discussed intelligently, ....otherwise it is all just personal opinions and we all know in the Greek the word for opinion is heresy.

Before we can discuss resurrection, life needs to be addressed, when we understand the Biblical signification of life and how God intended us to understand it, then the meaning of resurrection can be understood, without the correct understanding of life and its principles resurrection will never be understood.

Karl,

Why don't you start us off with some of the biblical criteria and guidelines that you had in mind?

You stated: 'we all know in the Greek the word for opinion is heresy'. How is it that 'we all know'? I read and have taught NT Greek and that's not my understanding of 'heresy'.

Oz