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What do you think?

However, the souls of believers who die are instantly transported into the presence of God.
Here is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 (my bolding):

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

Paul certainly does not seem to believe that people are instantly transported into the presence of God. Paul says this happens at some point in the future.

The only possible way I can see to reconcile what Paul says with the statement by jg is to assert that the "making alive" refers only to the body. However, one then has to wonder why Paul would write the glowing words of 1 Cor 15 if being "made alive" merely means to wrap an already fully conscious soul in a flesh wrapper. This is being made alive? Sounds a lot more like being given a body to clothe something that is already fully alive.
 
Yes, Drew

1 Corinthians 15:17-23,26,32,51-55
2 Corinthians 5:1-8
2 Timothy 4:6-8
John 5:28-29
Job 10:10-14
John 6:40-47
Revelation 22:12

All of these texts taken at their linguistic and cultural value should put the matter to rest that man rdoes not receive his reward and punishment at his physical death and that eternal life is only granted at the resurrection.

Sadly, these and many other texts are completely ignored for Greek theology. Nevermind the overwhelming biblical evidence to support it, but also the incredible leaps of unproven logic that must be made to support such a foolish notion as the immortality of the soul. Something that neither Solo or jg can properly respond to.

I still have yet to see a response to TanNinety's excellent observation on what exactly constitutes 'death' to the traditionalist nevermind your keen observation on the complete emasculation of the importance of the words Paul uses to show 'made alive'.


Nobody in this group even wants to admit that there is biblical evidence against them or that there is a possibility that what we are saying is correct. They'd rather ignore it for Catholic orthodoxy that was rejected by many Reformers just so they can believe they are right and that part of being a Christian might mean they'd have to reevaluate what they've grown up believing is incorrect.

This is a hard thing to do but sometimes to move closer to to the truth, it is necessary. It is unfortunate that our fine brethren here not only choose not to try and make this transition, but unfairly brand and label those who subscribe to this completely biblical stance as 'false teachers' 'imps of Satan' and followers of 'the father of lies' as some here have so poetically labeled us. :roll:
 
Drew said:
Here is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 (my bolding):

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

Paul certainly does not seem to believe that people are instantly transported into the presence of God. Paul says this happens at some point in the future.

The only possible way I can see to reconcile what Paul says with the statement by jg is to assert that the "making alive" refers only to the body. However, one then has to wonder why Paul would write the glowing words of 1 Cor 15 if being "made alive" merely means to wrap an already fully conscious soul in a flesh wrapper. This is being made alive? Sounds a lot more like being given a body to clothe something that is already fully alive.

Drew
Again you have taken this verse out of context...Take a look at the verse and ask yourself....What is Paul saying here in his letter to the church in Corinth? ....
 
Consider 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (I have added bolding)

God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angel. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you

To me, this text strongly suggests that the punishment lies in the future at or around the time that Jesus returns, not at physical death.

And, of course, I will re-iterate the plausibility of the notion that what is "everlasting" is the state of non-existence for the unredeemed, not a state of conscious torment.

This reading is made all the more plausible when one contrasts this with the "fate" of the redeemed in the annihilationist view that I think is correct. On this view, believers die physically and return to dust. They are in a kind of temporary non-existence, at least from the perspective of the believer himself as a subject of experience. However, the believer remains "safe in Christ" in the sense that God "remembers" them and uses this knowledge as a basis for calling them forth on the last day. This works nicely with texts like this one from Job 14:

If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
So the believer's state of conscious non-existence is temporary - he is called forth to life on that glorious day. At the time of the great judgement, however, the unredeemed are destroyed. And unlike the "sleeping" in the grave that precedes this time of judgement, the result of being thrown in the lake of fire is not temporary - the non-existence that results from being consumed by fire will never be reversed. It is entirely reasonable to read "everlasting destruction" this way.
 
Let's look at some quotes over the years from well respected church leaders, scholars, theologians and academicians from many different Christian faiths and see what they had to say. The full page can be found here. I encourage you to take a look, jg and Solo and all others watching this dialogue.

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/champ ... ality.html

Why don't we start with Tyndale? Was he a heretic?

"And ye, in putting them (the departed souls) in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection ... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?" [500]
Tyndale pressed his contention even further showing that the papal teaching on the subject is in conflict with St. Paul:

"`Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection?" [600]

And what about his associates and contemporaries?

John Frith

John Frith, associate of Tyndale stated his views similarly to those of Tyndale. He wrote:

"Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise; ... and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." [700]

and George Wishart
George Wishart (1500-1546), Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox. Wishart was charged with attacking aurricular confession, transubstantiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints (who couldn't hear their supplications anyway), and purgatory.

Charge "XVI" stated:

"Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." [800]

And this from a translator of the Greek New Testament, well respected back then and today. Weymouth. What did he have to say in his exhaustive studies of the Greek?

Dr. R. F. Weymouth (1822-1902) was the headmaster of Mill Hill School and translator of New Testament in Modern Speech. He said:

"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean `maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence.' To translate black as white is nothing to this." [7700]

In his book in a note on 1.Corinthians 15:18 he says:

"By `perish' the Apostle here apparently means `pass out of existence'." [7800]

On Hebrews 9:28 we read:

"The use in the N.T. of such words as `death', `destruction', `fire', `perish', to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably bad." [Ibid., 7800]

On Revelation 14:11:

"There is nothing in this verse that necessarily implies an eternity of suffering. In a similar way the word `punishment' or `correction' in Matthew 25:46 gives itself no indication of time."

On Revelation 20:10:

"The Lake of fire implying awful pain and complete, irremediable ruin and destruction." [Ibid., 7800]

Here is another one from an Archbishop nonetheless...no cults here.

Dr. William Temple (1881-1944) was the Archbishop of Canterbury and Primate of Great Britain. He wrote:

"[The] doctrine of the future life [will] involve our first disentangling the authentic teaching of the classical Scriptures from accretions which very quickly began to obscure this." [8900]

"Man is not immortal by nature or right; but he is capable of immortality and there is offered to him resurrection from the dead and life eternal if he will receive it from God and on God's terms." Ibid., p. 472.

"Are there not, however, many passages which speak of the endless torment of the lost? No; as far as my knowledge goes, there is none at all." Ibid., p. 464.

"After all, annihilation is an everlasting punishment though it is not unending torment." Ibid."

"One thing we can say with confidence: everlasting torment is to be ruled out. If men had not imported the Greek and unbiblical notion of the natural indestruction of the individual soul, and then read the New Testament with that already in their minds, they would have drawn from it a belief, not in everlasting torment, but in annihilation. It is the fire that is called aeonian, not the life cast into it." [9000]

"How can there be the Paradise for any while there is Hell, conceived as unending torment, for some? Each supposedly damned soul was born into the world as a mother's child, and Paradise cannot be Paradise for her if her child is in such a Hell." Ibid., p. 454.

We see just from these brief names that the doctrine of inherent immortality was denied by Luther, Tyndale and many other Reformers. And yet, so many today want to make this a 'cultic' thing while following Greek pagan ideas.

Sad, sad, sad...just follow the Bible, not your Catholic theology. You will be much more informed of the truth.
 
Annihilationism.

Annihilationism is the doctrine that the souls of the wicked will be snuffed out of existence rather than be sent to an everlasting, conscious hell. The existence of the unrepentant will be extinguished, while the righteous will enter into everlasting bliss.
Support from Scripture. “The Second Death.†Annihilationists point to the Bible references to the fate of the wicked as “the second death†(Rev. 20:14) in support of their view. Since a person loses consciousness of this world at the first death (physical death), it is argued that the “second deathâ€Âwill involve unconsciousness in the world to come.

“Everlasting Destruction.†Scripture speaks of the wicked being “destroyed.†Paul said: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power†(2 Thess. 1:7b–9). Annihilationists insist that the figure of “destruction†is incompatible with a continued, conscious existence.

“Perdition.†The wicked are said to go into “perdition†(kjv) or “destruction†(niv) (2 Peter 3:7), and Judas is called the “son of perdition†(John 17:12). The word perdition (apoleia) means to perish. This, annihilationists argue, indicates that the lost will perish or go out of existence.
Like Not Having Been Born. Jesus said of Judas, who was sent to perdition, that “It would be better for him if he had not been born†(Mark 14:21). Before one is conceived they do not exist. Thus, for hell to be like the prebirth condition it must be a state of nonexistence.

“The Wicked Will Perish.†Repeatedly, the Old Testament speaks of the wicked perishing. The psalmist wrote: “But the wicked will perish: The Lord’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanishâ€â€vanish like smoke†(Ps. 37:20; cf. 68:2; 112:10). But to perish implies a state of nothingness.

Answering Arguments from Scripture. When examined carefully in context, none of the above passages proves annihilationism. At some points language may permit such a construction, but nowhere does the text demand annihilationism. In context and comparison with other Scriptures, the concept must be rejected in every case.

Separation, Not Extinction. The first death is simply the separation of the soul from the body (James 2:26), not the annihilation of the soul. Scripture presents death as conscious separation. Adam and Eve died spiritually the moment they sinned, yet they still existed and could hear God’s voice (Gen. 3:10). Before one is saved, he is “dead in trespasses and sins†(Eph. 2:1), and yet he still carries God’s image (Gen. 1:27; cf. Gen. 9:6; James 3:9). Though unable to come to Christ without the intervention of God, the “spiritually dead†are sufficiently aware that Scripture holds them accountable to believe (Acts 16:31), and repent (Acts 17:30). Continued awareness, but with separation from God and the inability to save oneselfâ€â€these constitute Scripture’s vision of the second death.

Destruction, Not Nonexistence. “Everlasting†destruction would not be annihilation, which only takes an instant and is over. If someone undergoes everlasting destruction, then they have to have everlasting existence. The cars in a junkyard have been destroyed, but they are not annihilated. They are simply beyond repair or unredeemable. So are the people in hell.

Since the word perdition means to die, perish, or to come to ruin, the same objections apply. In 2 Peter 3:7 perdition is used in the context of judgment, clearly implying consciousness. In our junkyard analogy, ruined cars have perished, but they are still junkyard cars. In this connection, Jesus spoke of hell as a dump where the fire would not cease and where a person’s resurrected body would not be consumed (Mark 9:48).

In addition to comments on death and perdition above, it should be noted that the Hebrew word used to describe the wicked perishing in the Old Testament (דאבא) is also used to describe the righteous perishing (see Isa. 57:1; Micah 7:2). But even the annihilationists admit that the righteous are not snuffed out of existence. That being the case, they should not conclude that the wicked will cease to exist based on this term.

The same word ד֯אבא֠ is used to describe things that are merely lost but then later found (Deut. 22:3), which proves that lost does not mean nonexistent.
“It Would Have Been Better. . . .†When he says that it would have been better if Judas had not been born, Jesus is not comparing Judas’s perdition to his nonexistence before conception but to his existence before birth. This hyperbolic figure of speech would almost certainly indicate the severity of his punishment, not a statement about the superiority of nonbeing over being. In a parallel condemnation on the Pharisees, Jesus said Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented had they seen his miracles (Matt. 11:23–24).

This does not mean that they actually would have repented or God would surely have shown them these miraclesâ€â€2 Peter 3:9. It is simply a powerful figure of speech indicating that their sin was so great that “it would be more tolerable†in the day of judgment for Sodom than for them (vs. 24).
Further, nothing cannot be better than something, since they have nothing in common to compare them. So nonbeing cannot be actually better than being. To assume otherwise is a category mistake.

Biblical Arguments. In addition to the lack of any definitive passages in favor of annihilationism, numerous texts support the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment. A brief summary includes:

The Rich Man in Hell. Unlike parables which have no real persons in them, Jesus told the story of an actual beggar named Lazarus who went to heaven and of a rich man who died and went to hell and was in conscious torment (Luke 16:22–28). He cried out, “ ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony’ †(vss. 24–25). The rich man then begged that his brothers be warned “so that they will not also come to this place of torment†(vs. 27). There is no hint of annihilation in this passage; he is suffering constant and conscious torment.

A Place of Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth. Jesus repeatedly said the people in hell are in continual agony. He declared that “the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth†(Matt. 8:12; cf. 22:13; 24:51; 25:30). But a place of weeping is obviously a place of conscious sorrow. Those who are not conscious do not weep.

A Place of Unquenchable Flames. Jesus repeatedly called hell a place of unquenchable flames (Mark 9:43–48) where the very bodies of the wicked will never die (cf. Luke 12:4–5). But it would make no sense to have everlasting flames and bodies without any souls in them to experience the torment.

A Place of Everlasting Torment. John the apostle described hell as a place of eternal torment. He declared that “the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever†(Rev. 20:10). Eternal torment indicates that the everlasting state of woe is conscious.

A Place for the Beast and False Prophet. In a clear example of beings who were still conscious after a thousand years of conscious torment in hell, the Bible says of the beast and false prophets that “The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur†(Rev. 19:20) before the “thousand years†(Rev. 20:2). Yet after this period the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [still] are†(Rev. 20:10, emphasis added). Not only were they “alive†when they entered, but they were still alive after a thousand years of conscious torment.

A Place of Conscious Punishment. The fact that the wicked are “punished with everlasting destruction†(2 Thess. 1:9) strongly implies that they must be conscious. One cannot suffer punishment without existence. It is no punishment to beat a dead corpse. An unconscious person feels no pain.
Annihilation would not be a punishment but a release from all punishment. Job can suffer something worse than annihilation in this life. The punishment of evil men in the afterlife would have to be conscious. If not, then God is not just, since he would have given less punishment to some wicked than to some righteous people. For not all wicked people suffer as much as some righteous people do in this life.

A Place That Is Everlasting. Hell is said to be of the same duration as heaven, “everlasting†(Matt. 25:41). As the saints in heaven are said to be in conscious bliss (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23), so the sinners in hell are in conscious woe (cf. Luke 16).

Philosophical Arguments. For Annihilation. In addition to biblical arguments, many annihilationists offer philosophical reasons for rejecting everlasting conscious punishment. Granting a theistic perspective, most of them, however, are a variation on the one theme of God’s mercy. Arguments by those who deny theism or human immortality are covered in those respective articles.

Annihilationists reason that God is a God of mercy (Exod. 20:6), and it is merciless to allow people to suffer consciously forever. We kill trapped horses if we cannot rescue them from burning buildings. We put other suffering creatures out of their misery. Annihilationists argue that a merciful God would surely do as much for his creatures.
__________

Against Annihilationism. The very concept of an ultimately merciful God supposes that he is the absolute standard for what is merciful and morally right. Indeed, the moral argument for God’s existence demonstrates this. But if God is the ultimate standard for moral righteousness, we cannot impose our concept of justice upon him. The very idea of injustice presupposes an ultimate standard, which theists claim for God.

Annihilation would demean both the love of God and the nature of human beings as free moral creatures. It would be as if God said to them, “I will allow you to be free only if you do what I say. If you don’t, then I will snuff out your very freedom and existence!†This would be like a father telling his son he wanted him to be a doctor, but when the son chose instead to be a park ranger the father shot him. Eternal suffering is eternal testimony to the freedom and dignity of humans, even unrepentant humans.

It would be contrary to the created nature of human beings to annihilate them, since they are made in God’s image and likeness, which is everlasting (Gen. 1:27). Animals are often killed to alleviate their pain. But (the euthanasia movement notwithstanding) we do not do the same for humans precisely because they are not animals. They are created in the image of God and, hence, should be treated with the greatest respect for their dignity as God’s image bearers. Not to allow them to continue to exist in their freely chosen destiny, painful as it may be, is to snuff out God’s image in them. Since free choice is morally good, being part of the image of God, then it would be a moral evil to take it away. But this is what annihilation does: It destroys human freedom forever.

Further, to stomp out the existence of a creature in God’s immortal image is to renege on what God gave themâ€â€immortality. It is to attack himself in effigy by destroying his image-bearers. But God does not act against God.
To punish the crime of telling of a half-truth with the same ferocity as the crime of genocide is unjust. Hitler should receive a greater punishment than a petty thief, though both crimes affront God’s infinite holiness. Certainly not all judgment proportionate to the sin is meted out in this life. The Bible speaks of degrees of punishment in hell (Matt. 5:22; Rev. 20:12–14). But there can be no degrees of annihilation. Nonexistence is the same for all persons.

_____

Conclusion. The doctrine of annihilation rests more on sentimental than scriptural bases. Although, there are some biblical expressions that can be construed to support annihilationism, there are none that must be understood this way. Furthermore, numerous passages clearly state that the wicked will suffer consciously and eternally in hell (see Hell; “Heathen,†Salvation of; Universalism).


Sources
J. Edwards, The Works of Jonathan Edwards
E. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes
L. E. Froomtionalist’s Faith of Our Father
N. L. Geisler, “Man’s Destiny: Free or Forced,†CSR, 9.2
J. Gerstner, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell
C. S. Lewis, The Great Divorce
â€â€Ã¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â€, The Problem of Pain. Chapter 8
â€â€Ã¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â€, The Screwtape Letters
F. Nietzsche, Toward a Genealogy of Morals
R. A. Peterson, “A Traditionalist Response to John Stott’s Arguments for Annihilationism,†JETS, December 1994
â€â€Ã¢â‚¬â€Ã¢â‚¬â€, Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment
C. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy
B. Russell, Why I Am Not a Christian
J. P. Sartre, No Exit
G. T. Shed, Eternal Punishmen
 
Animals are often killed to alleviate their pain. But (the euthanasia movement notwithstanding) we do not do the same for humans precisely because they are not animals. They are created in the image of God and, hence, should be treated with the greatest respect for their dignity as God’s image bearers. Not to allow them to continue to exist in their freely chosen destiny, painful as it may be, is to snuff out God’s image in them. Since free choice is morally good, being part of the image of God, then it would be a moral evil to take it away. But this is what annihilation does: It destroys human freedom forever

Oxymoron anyone?

"Humans are created in the image of God! Greatest respect must be shown."
Keeping them alive so they can suffer second and third degree burns and incredible suffering without end is MUCH more 'dignified' then putting them out of their misery.
:roll:
'Annihilation 'destroys human freedom'? Explain how this is possible. Whether eternal torment or annihilation, there is no more human freedom in eternity. Sinners cannot choose to repent or make a choice to be reformed in hell. What a load of hooey.

I saw a movie the other day 'Thank you for smoking'. This is just the kind of spin that is used to make a morally abhorrent and completely unbiblical doctrine smell rosy.

Frankly jg., I've seen better arguments from yourself than the nauseating clap trap you borrowed the above from.
 
JG,

I took the liberty of adding paragraphs to your post. It was too difficult to read.


Posters, please take the time to properly format your posts before submitting.

ty.gif
 
guibox said:
Frankly jg., I've seen better arguments from yourself than the nauseating clap trap you borrowed the above from.

Thank you Guibox, I will take that as a compliment.

I mearly posted that, more for the theologians that the info came from.
I got that paper got e mailed to me from a guest who frequents here.
 
Vic C. said:
JG,

I took the liberty of adding paragraphs to your post. It was too difficult to read.


Posters, please take the time to properly format your posts before submitting.

ty.gif

Thanks Vic.
I thought i did break it up. I copied and pasted it into word in sections and it got joined together somehow.
 
jgredline said:
Thank you Guibox, I will take that as a compliment.

I mearly posted that, more for the theologians that the info came from.
I got that paper got e mailed to me from a guest who frequents here.

Perhaps you could encourage the guest to do his own posting?
 
jgredline said:
Mutz
I have...I have asked him to join the forum. So far no response to my email

Just a thought - can guests make posts here without registering as they seem to be able to do on some other boards?
 
No Ed, they can't, though it is an available option that Logan has opted not to apply. Some Sites do allow it in their "newbies" section.
 
Vic C. said:
No Ed, they can't, though it is an available option that Logan has opted not to apply. Some Sites do allow it in their "newbies" section.

Fair enough - come to think of it, it's probably fraught with danger letting all allcomers post.
 
Separation, Not Extinction. The first death is simply the separation of the soul from the body (James 2:26), not the annihilation of the soul.
I do not wish to repeat arguments that have been made many times over. I just wish to underscore the insufficiency of the kind of argument expressed above. The key point is the problem of circularity. The reason for the circularity is that in this (and other) texts, certain assumptions are brought to the texts and, using such assumptions, a point is claimed to have been shown. But the conclusion rests critically on the unsupported assumption.

James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Does the above text support separation of the soul from the body? To a Greek perhaps, but not to a Hebrew. All of my investigations have shown that the Hebrews did not have a concept of an immaterial soul or spirit that is the bearer of consciousness. Either way, there is nothing in this statement that requires us to believe that the spirit is a conscious entity that survives without the body. Immersed in a greek worldview, we illicitly bring this idea to the text, when it works perfectly well with a "spirit as animating breath of God" kind of reading. Secular types would say "the body without a mind is effectively dead" and never intend to represent that the mind can float free of the body and survive bodily death.

jgredline said:
Scripture presents death as conscious separation..... Continued awareness, but with separation from God......
I see no Biblical support for this position. What I see is a view that so distorts the nominal sense of "death" as per Romans 6:23 that all bets are off. If one is willing to call a state of never-ending conscious torment "death", then anything is possible. I always though that death was about the absence of thought, the absence of sensation, and so on.

One problem, as I see it, is that this over the top rework of the word "death" has such a deeply entrenched hold in the Christian world that most people cannot stand back and examine it critically. What could be further from the nominal sense of death than a state of fully conscious torment?

jgredline said:
Destruction, Not Nonexistence
This is yet another example. In the real world, destruction means precisely to make something non-existant. It is only in the world of Christian culture that this central core of meaning is turned on its head and destruction assumes a meaning that is diametrically opposed to its nominal meaning. I am open to metaphorical and non-literal readings, but this is simply asking too much.
 
reply

Drew, you are going to have to start being honest with God and yourself. I really worry about you.



May God bless, Golfjack
 
jgredline said:
golfjack said:
Drew, you are going to have to start being honest with God and yourself. I really worry about you.

Yep, I agree with you jack....
Let the arguments speak and let all interested parties make their cases. If the arguments that guibox and I (and others) are putting forward have no merit, the deception that you fear should not take root, should it?

I am quite convinced that what is going on in the church is basically that we are all whispering something like the following to each other: "Let's all agree to make death mean life, destruction mean stable conscious existence, and sleep mean active experience. And while we're at it, let's re-invent Hebrew ideas through the lens of a Greek worldview. With these minor "adjustments" we can comfortably defend the eternal torment position".
 
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