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What do you think?

Drew said:
Let the arguments speak and let all interested parties make their cases. If the arguments that guibox and I (and others) are putting forward have no merit, the deception that you fear should not take root, should it?

I am quite convinced that what is going on in the church is basically that we are all whispering something like the following to each other: "Let's all agree to make death mean life, destruction mean stable conscious existence, and sleep mean active experience. And while we're at it, let's re-invent Hebrew ideas through the lens of a Greek worldview. With these minor "adjustments" we can comfortably defend the eternal torment position".

Hi Drew,

Are you a conspiracy theorist? The language of the New Testament is not such a problem because the authors were (all?) Jews inspired by God. I am also content with the thought that just at the right time God sent forth His Son. . . which time availed itself of the Greek language and grammar. So the argument shifts back to the revealed text whether Hebrew or Greek.

Scholars can be found for most viewpoints - the confessions of faith are more important than the opinions of individual scholars - no confession of faith is adopted without prayer, scrutiny and extensive historical debate as well as the general consensus of what the church has always believed. While people usually say that the church believed that the world was flat at this point - I have yet to find reference to a flat world in the confessions of faith where the subject at hand is considered.
 
Hi stranger:

I am not sure how the material that you posted relates to my position. I am suggesting that within the Hebrew culture, the words "soul" and "spirit" had a certain meaning and that historians will tell you that they would not have used these words to refer to a consciousness - bearing entity that survived death.

While I admit that I have not exhaustively researched this, what investigations I have done cause suggest that the Hebrew mind conceived of the human person as indivisible into a physical "part" and a "soul / spirit" part. Sure they used the words "soul" and "spirit" and distinguished them from the body. But everyone knows that such a distinction is not even close to being a justification for the assertion that one can live without the other.

But even if we ignore the "cultural / historical" argument, I think that the overall Scriptural picture pretty much rules out the "soul/spirit as a consciousness bearing entity that survives death" position. Sure, this is the position that most believe. But most accept this doctrine without looking at it critically. And we see the intellectual price that is paid for believing that an immortal soul position - "death somehow has to mean "never-ending life", "sleep" means "full conscious awareness", and destruction comes to mean "eternal preservation".
 
WHAT CHRIST TEACHES CONCERNING FUTURE RETRIBUTION
BY REV. WM. C. PROCTER, F. PH.
CROYDON, ENGLAND

There are four reasons for confining our consideration of the subject of Future Retribution to the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ:

(1). It limits the range of our inquiry to what is possible in a brief essay. There will be no occasion to examine the 56 passages in the authorized version of our Bible which contain the word “Hell,†(most of which are the translations of the Hebrew “Sheol†and the Greek “Hades,†meaning “the grave†and “the unseen state,â€Â) and we can concentrate our attention on the ten passages in which our Lord uses the word “Gehenna†(which was the usual appellation in His day for the abode of the lost) together with those other verses which evidently refer to the future state of the wicked.

(2). It affords a sufficient answer to the speculation of those who don’t know, to refer to the revelation of the One who does know. Many other passages might be quoted from the New Testament, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who was promised by our Lord to His disciples to “guide them into all truth,†and “show them things to come†(John 16:12, 13); but, in taking the words of Christ Himself, we shall find the greatest ground of common agreement in these days of loose views of inspiration. Surely, He who is “The Truth†would never misrepresent or exaggerate it on a matter of such vital importance, and would neither encourage popular errors nor excite needless fears.

(3). It also affords a sufficient answer to those who represent the doctrine as unreasonable and dishonoring to God, and who regard those who hold it as narrow minded and hard hearted, to remind them that all the very expressions which are most fiercely denounced in the present day fell from the lips of the Saviour who died for us, and came from the heart of the “Lover of souls.†Surely we have no right to seek to be broader minded than He was, or to nurture false hopes which have no solid foundation in His teaching; while to assume a greater zeal for God’s honor, and a deeper compassion for the souls of men, is little short of blasphemy. The current objections to the orthodox doctrine of hell are made by those who allow their hearts to run away with their heads, and are founded more on sickly sentimentality than on sound scholarship.

(4). In considering the subject as professing Christians, the words of the Master Himself ought surely to put an end to all controversy; and these are clear and unmistakable when taken in their plain and obvious meaning, without subjecting them to any forced interpretation. It is greatly to be regretted that they are not more frequently dealt with in the modern pulpit; but ministers are only human; and there is a strong temptation to preach what is palatable, rather than what is profitable. In this case, surely, history repeats itself; for we read in Isa. 30:10 of those who said to the prophets of old: “Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceitsâ€Â; and a cowardly yielding to this demand has produced an emasculated Gospel and an enfeebled ministry in the present day.
Coming now to consider briefly Christ’s teaching on the subject, let us ask, first of all:

1. What did our lord teach as to the certainty of future retribution? The word “retribution†is to be preferred to “punishment†because the Bible teaches us that the fate of the wicked is not an arbitrary (much less a vindictive) infliction, but the necessary consequence of their own sins. Taking the passages in their order, in Matt. 5:22; Christ speaks of causeless anger against, and contemptuous condemnation of, others as placing us “in danger of the hell of fire, while in verses 29 and 30 He utters a similar warning concerning the sin of lust; and these are in the Sermon on the Mount, which is the most generally accepted part of His teaching! In chapter 8:12 He speaks of unbelieving “children of the Kingdom†being “cast forth into the outer darknessâ€Â, and adds, “There shall be the weeping and gnashing of teethâ€Ââ€â€expressions which are repeated in chapters 22:13 and 25:30. In chapter 28 Jesus said: “Fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hellâ€Ââ€â€a wholesome fear which is decidedly lacking in the present day, and which many people regard as a remnant of superstition quite unsuited to this enlightened age! In our Lord’s own explanation of the parable of the tares and wheat, He declared: “The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity. and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth. The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth†(chapter 13:41, 13:42, 13:49, 13:50). In chapter 23:15, He speaks of the hypocritical Pharisees as “children of hell,†showing that their conduct had fitted them for it, and that they would “go to their own placeâ€Â, like Judas (whom He describes as “the son of perdition†in John 17:12), while in verse 33 He asks: “How shall ye escape the judgment of hell?†The law of retribution can no more be repealed than that of gravitation; it is fixed and unalterable. That hell has not been prepared for human beings, but that they prepare themselves for it, is clear from the sentence which our Lord says that He will pronounce upon those on His left hand in the last great day: “Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels†(Chapter 25:41).
Turning to the Gospel according to Mark, we find our Lord saying, in chapter 3:29: “Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.†Whatever view may be taken of the character of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, the cause and consequence are here closely linked together, eternal sin bringing eternal retribution. The words in the original undoubtedly indicate an inveterate habit rather than an isolated act, and would probably be better translated, “is held under the power of an eternal sin.†This in itself precludes the possibility of forgiveness, because it assumes the impossibility of repentance; besides, each repetition involving a fresh penalty, the punishment is naturally unending. Similarly, in John 8:21, 24, our Lord’s twice repeated declaration to those Jews which believed not on Him, “Ye shall die in your sinsâ€Â, indicates that unforgiven sin must rest upon the soul in condemnation and pollution; for death, so far from changing men’s characters, only fixes them; and hence Christ speaks in chapter 5:29 of “the resurrection of damnationâ€Â. Once more, the words of the Ascended and Glorified Saviour recorded in Rev. 21:8 may be quoted: “The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.â€Â
A careful study of the Scriptural uses of the words “life†and “death†will clearly show that the root ideas are respectively “union†and “separationâ€Â. Physical life is union of the spirit with the body, spiritual life is the union of the spirit with God, and everlasting life is this union perfected and consummated summated to all eternity. Similarly, physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body, spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God, and eternal death is the perpetuation of this separation. Hence, for all who have not experienced a second birth, “the second death†becomes inevitable; for he who is only born once dies twice, while he who is “born again†dies only once. As against the doctrine of annihilation, Rev. 20:14 may be quoted: “Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fireâ€Â.

2. What did Christ teach as to the character of future retribution? We have already seen that He spoke of it as full of sorrow and misery in His seven-fold repetition of the striking expression: “There shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth†(Matt. 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28). In Mark 9:43–48, our Lord twice speaks of “the fire that never shall be quenchedâ€Â, and thrice adds, “where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenchedâ€Â. Of course He was using the common Jewish metaphors for Gehenna, taken from the perpetual fires that burned in the valley of Hinnom to destroy the refuse, and the worms that fed upon the unburied corpses that were cast there; but, as we have already seen, He would never have encouraged a popular delusion. Our Lord twice spoke of fruitless professors being “cast into the fire†(Matt. 7:19; John 15:6) ; twice of “the furnace of fire†(Matt. 13:42, 50); twice of the “hell of fire†(Matt. 5:22; 18:9); and twice of “eternal fire†(Matt. 18:8; 25:41).
Granted that “the undying worm and unquenchable fire†are metaphorical, yet these striking figures of speech must stand for startling facts, they must be symbolical of a terrible reality. We need no more regard them materially than we do the golden streets and pearly gates of heaven; but, if the latter are emblematic of the indescribable splendors of heaven, the former must be symbolical of the unutterable sufferings of hell. One can no more presume to dogmatize on the one than the other, but it requires no vivid stretch of the imagination to conceive an accusing conscience acting like the undying worm, and insatiable desires like the unquenchable fire. In our Lord’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the former is represented as being “in torments†and “in anguish†even in “Hades,†and, that memory survives the present life and accompanies us beyond the grave, is clear from Abraham’s words to him: “Son, remember†(Luke 16:23–25). Could any material torments be worse than the moral torture of an acutely sharpened conscience, in which memory becomes remorse as it dwells upon misspent time and misused talents, upon omitted duties and committed sins, upon opportunities lost both of doing and of getting good, upon privileges neglected and warning rejected? It is bad enough here, where memory is so defective, and conscience may be so easily drugged; but what must it be hereafter, when no expedients will avail to banish recollection and drown remorse? The poet Starkey stimulates our imagination in the awful lines:
“All that hath been that ought not to have been,
That might have been so different; that now
Cannot but be irrevocably past. Thy gangrened heart,
Stripped of its self-worn mask, and spread at last
Bare, in its horrible anatomy,
Before thine own excruciated gaze;â€Â
while Cecil puts the matter in a nutshell when he writes
“Hell is the truth seen too late.â€Â
Again, what material pain could equal the moral torment of intensified lusts and passions finding no means of gratification, insatiable desires that can have no provision for their indulgence, or if indulged, all the pleasure gone while the power remains? Surely, such expressions as the undying worm and the unquenchable fire represent, not pious fictions, but plain facts; and we may be sure that the reality will exceed, not fall short of, the figures employed, as in the case of the blessedness of the redeemed. The woes thus pronounced are more terrible than the thunders of Sinai, and the doom denounced more awful than that of Sodom; but we should never forget that these terrible expressions fell from the lips of Eternal Love, and came from a heart overflowing with tender compassion for the souls of men.

3. What did Christ teach as to the continuity of future retribution? Is there any solid basis in His recorded words for the doctrine of eternal hope, or the shadow of a foundation for the idea that all men will be eventually saved? Much has been made of the fact that the Greek word “aionios†(used by our Lord in Matt. 18:8 and 25:41, 46, and translated “everlasting†in the Authorized, and “eternal†in the Revised, Version) literally means “age-longâ€Â; but an examination of the 25 places in which it is used in the New Testament reveals the fact that it is twice used of the Gospel, once of the Gospel covenant, once of the consolation brought to us by the Gospel, twice of God’s own Being, four times of the future of the wicked, and fifteen times of the present and future life of the believer. No one thinks of limiting its duration in the first four cases and in the last, why then do so in the other one? The dilemma becomes acute in considering the words of our Lord recorded in Matt. 25:46, where precisely the same word is used concerning the duration of the reward of the righteous and the retribution of the wicked, for only by violent perversion and distortion can the same word in the same sentence possess a different signification. Again, it is sometimes urged that, as salt has a purifying power, the words, “everyone shall be salted with fire,†in Mark 9:49, have this significance in the case of future punishment; but the context clearly shows that its preserving power is alluded to, for the passage speaks of the undying worm and the unquenchable fire. Besides, if the Divine chastisements are ineffectual here in the case of any individual, when there is so much to restrain men and women from wrong-doing, how can they be expected to prove effectual in the next world, with all these restraints removed, and only the society of devils? It is certainly somewhat illogical for those who make so much of the love of God to argue that punishment will prove remedial hereafter in the case of those whom Divine Love has failed to influence here. Not only is there not the slightest hint in the teaching of our Lord that future punishment will prove remedial or corrective, but His words concerning Judas in Matt. 26:24 are inexplicable on that supposition. Surely His existence would still have been a blessing if his punishment was to be followed by ultimate restoration, and Christ would therefore never have uttered the sadly solemn words: “It had been good for that man if he had not been born.†Similarly there is a striking and significant contrast between our Lord’s words to the unbelieving Jews recorded in John 8:21: “Whither I go ye cannot come,†and those to Peter in chapter 13:36: “Whither I go thou canst not follow Me now, but thou shalt follow Me afterwards.â€Â
As character tends to permanence, heaven is a place of perfect holiness and hell must be of the opposite; and this throws light upon the words of Rev. 22:11, which were apparently uttered by our ascended, glorified, and returning Lord: “He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still; and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.†The doctrine of universal restoration springs from a natural desire to wish the history of mankind to have a happy ending, as in most story books; but it ignores the fact that, by granting man free will, God has (as it were) set a boundary to His own omnipotence, for it is a moral impossibility to save a man against his will. Surely eternal sin can only be followed by eternal retribution; for, if a man deliberately chooses to be ruled by sin, he must inevitably be ruined by it. One never hears of the doctrine of final restoration being applied to the devil and his angels, but why not? If the answer is, “Because they cannot and will not repent,†the same is surely true of many human beings.
Not only is there no vestige of foundation in our Lord’s words for the doctrine of universalism, there is also no shadow of a suggestion of any restoration of the wicked hereafter. So far from this being the case, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus rings the death knell of any such hope. Abraham is there represented as saying to Dives: “Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they which would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us†(Luke 16:26). That “fixed gulf†is surely a yawning chasm too deep to be filled up, and too wide to be bridged over; and the awful description of hell by the poet Milton, in “Paradise Lostâ€Â, remains sadly true
“Regions of sorrow, doleful shades, where peace
And rest can never dwell; hope never comes
That comes to all, but torture without end.â€Â

4. What did Christ teach as to the causes of future retribution? A careful study of our Lord’s words show that there are two primary causes, namely, deliberate unbelief and willful rejection of Him; and surely these are but different aspects of the same sin. In Matt. 8:12, it was the contrast between the faith of the Gentile centurion and the unbelief of the Jewish nation which drew from His lips the solemn words: “The children of the Kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness;†while, in chapter 23 the awful denunciation in verse 33 is followed by the sad lamentation: “How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not†(verse 37). Similarly, in Mark 3:29, R. V., the “eternal sin†spoken of can only be that of continued rejection of the offers of mercy; and in John 8:24, our Lord plainly declares: “If ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.†Finally, in Mark 16:16, we find the words: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.†A careful consideration of these passages, and especially of the last, will help to remove one great difficulty with regard to the whole subject, namely, the future state of those who have never had the Gospel so plainly presented to them as to enable them to deliberately accept or reject Christ, to willingly believe the good news or willfully disbelieve it.

Another difficulty is removed when we realize that our Lord taught that there would be different degrees in hell as in heaven. Thus, in Matt. 11:20–24 He taught that it would be “more tolerable in the day of judgment†for Tyre and Sidon than for Chorazin and Bethsaida, and for Sodom than for Capernaum; and in Mark 12:40 He speaks of “greater damnation.†It is clear that future retribution will be proportioned to the amount of guilt committed and of grace rejected. (See also Luke 12:47, 48; John 19:11.)
We have so far examined, as thoroughly as possible within this limited space, all the recorded words of our Lord which bear on this important subject. It only remains, in conclusion, very briefly to point out that the whole drift of Christ’s teaching confirms what we learn from these isolated passages, and that future retribution is not merely an incidental but a fundamental part of the Gospel message. It is the dark background on which its loving invitations and tender expostulations are presented, and the Gospel message loses much of its force when the doctrine is left out. But, worst of all, the earnest exhortations to immediate repentance and faith lose their urgency if the ultimate rt will be the same if those duties are postponed beyond the present life. Is it seriously contended that Judas will eventually be as John, Nero as Paul, Ananias and Sapphira as Priscilla and Aquila?

Finally, the doctrines of heaven and hell seem to stand or fall together, for both rest upon the same Divine revelation, both are described metaphorically, and both have the same word “everlasting†applied to their duration. If the threatenings of God’s Word are unreliable, so may the promises be; if the denunciations have no real meaning, what becomes of the invitations? Ruskin well terms the denial of hell “the most dangerous, because the most attractive, form of modern infidelity.†But is it so modern? Is it not an echo of the devil’s insinuating doubt: “Yea, hath God said� followed by his insistent denial, “Ye shall not surely die,†which led to the fall of man? Let us, therefore, believe God’s truth, rather than the devil’s lie; let us accept Divine revelation, rather than human speculation; and let us heed what Christ so plainly taught, without mitigating, modifying, or minimizing His solemn warnings.
 
JG,
You are really going to tick the devil off by shedding light on his lies and deceptions!!

Keep up the good work.
God bless,
Michael
 
What did our lord teach as to the certainty of future retribution? The word “retribution†is to be preferred to “punishment†because the Bible teaches us that the fate of the wicked is not an arbitrary (much less a vindictive) infliction, but the necessary consequence of their own sins. Taking the passages in their order, in Matt. 5:22; Christ speaks of causeless anger against, and contemptuous condemnation of, others as placing us “in danger of the hell of fire, while in verses 29 and 30 He utters a similar warning concerning the sin of lust; and these are in the Sermon on the Mount, which is the most generally accepted part of His teaching! In chapter 8:12 He speaks of unbelieving “children of the Kingdom†being “cast forth into the outer darknessâ€Â, and adds, “There shall be the weeping and gnashing of teethâ€Ââ€â€expressions which are repeated in chapters 22:13 and 25:30. In chapter 28 Jesus said: “Fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hellâ€Ââ€â€a wholesome fear which is decidedly lacking in the present day, and which many people regard as a remnant of superstition quite unsuited to this enlightened age! In our Lord’s own explanation of the parable of the tares and wheat, He declared: “The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity. and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth. The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be the weeping and gnashing of teeth†(chapter 13:41, 13:42, 13:49, 13:50).
And of course this entire set of Scriptural texts and associated explanation is perfectly supportive of the annihilationist perspective, so I am a little surprised by its posting by jgredline.

Someone who has carefully been following this debate will know that guibox and I (correct me if I am wrong, guibox) do indeed believe in the reality of punishment by hell-fire. We do believe in real punishment for the unredeemed that will be experienced by them.

We just do not believe it will be eternal.

Those who believe otherwise might consider explaining why fire, an agent of destruction, not preservation, is the vehicle for punishment. And they will have to explain why destroying a soul and body in hell means preserving that soul (and body?) in an eternally unchanged state.

I am frankly mystified that more people do not see the problems here. Fire is an agent of destruction - it turns things into smoke - it does not preserve them in an unchanging state. It seems like the perfect vehicle for God to express his intent to destroy the wicked. And how do references to destruction end up connoting perfect preservation - the exact opposite meaning? If destruction means unending torment, what, precisely is being destroyed.

Admittedly, the annihilationist must argue that in a very limited number of texts, "forever" does not really mean forever. However, there is clear Bibical justification for this, rooted in known facts such as the fact that Edom is no longer burning. And even if there were not such precedents, this "distortion" of the literal meaning of this word in a handful of texts is a veritable misdemeanour compared with the comparative felony of making references to "death", "destruction", and "sleep" mean precisely their opposite in so many verses, I would get my hand slapped by Vic for listing them all.
 
Fire is only an agent of destruction in the physical realm. Jesus teaches that the souls of the unrighteous are punished for eternity in everlasting fire. This is a spiritual torment, which can not be understood by the natural man. The physical realm will be destroyed by fire, but the unrighteous souls will be tormented for eternity with spiritual unending fire. Simple for those with spiritual eyes and ears.
 
Drew wrote:

Those who believe otherwise might consider explaining why fire, an agent of destruction, not preservation, is the vehicle for punishment. And they will have to explain why destroying a soul and body in hell means preserving that soul (and body?) in an eternally unchanged state.

Hi Drew,

Fire is the means God appoints - there is also a refiners fire to separate the pure from the impure as in precious metals and fire symbolises the Holy Spirit (tongues of fire).

The second part of your objection. The unchanged state refers to the finality of the condition. I would say that there is change in hell - but it is a contained change.

Why suppose that there will be no change?
 
stranger said:
Hi Drew,

Fire is the means God appoints - there is also a refiners fire to separate the pure from the impure as in precious metals and fire symbolises the Holy Spirit (tongues of fire).

The second part of your objection. The unchanged state refers to the finality of the condition. I would say that there is change in hell - but it is a contained change.

Why suppose that there will be no change?
Hi stranger:

With regard to the "fire as a refining process" - I think that the key issue here is change. Fire changes the thing that is put into it. And what would an eternal fire do? It would keep on changing whatever is put into it forever and ever. And if the process is destruction (in the case of the use of fire for the unredeemed), the end state would naturally be seen as non-existence.

Besides, the primary role of fire to destroy things, not refine them. And the "refinement" reading does not really make sense in respect to the fate of the lost anyway. It is fine to talk about "fire are refiner", but for those in torment, what is the "pure stuff" that is being refined out? And what end is served? Same with the likening of the Holy Spirit to fire. Clearly this usage does not demand a "destruction" reading. But equally clearly, this usage cannot apply to the lost who, of course, would not have the Holy Spirit in the first place.

I think that several texts from the Scriptures establish little doubt that, when used in reference to the "wicked", fire is used to refer to their destruction. This usage is driven home by the use of metaphors that refer to well-known physical processes that can only be understood as connoting destruction (in the nominal sense).

Consider these:

Matthew 3:12 “Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fireâ€Â

Matthew 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, ‘Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barnâ€Â

Hebrews 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.â€Â

Malachi 4:1,3 “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and th day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.â€Â

And as a footnote - unquenchable fire does not connote never-ending fire, it connote fire that cannot be put out until it achieves its purpose which is, naturally enough, destruction.

I think the use of fire in reference to the fate of the unredeemed is a major argument for the annihilation position. I can think of no more appropriate metaphor to communicate transformation into nothingness. Fire aggressively consumes wood until it is gone. And please bear in mind that thousands of years ago, the idea of fire as agent of destruction would be all the more clear to people who would have routinely be observers of wood fires. I think it is eminently reasonable to assume the intended message of all the references to fire would be destruction, since this is what fire would be understood as doing in the mind of the person of those times.

As for the remark about "preservation": It was merely my intent to demonstrate the incoherence of the idea that an agent of destruction can keep fulfilling its function of destruction over endless time without reducing the things that is burning to nothing.
 
Solo said:
Fire is only an agent of destruction in the physical realm. Jesus teaches that the souls of the unrighteous are punished for eternity in everlasting fire. This is a spiritual torment, which can not be understood by the natural man. The physical realm will be destroyed by fire, but the unrighteous souls will be tormented for eternity with spiritual unending fire. Simple for those with spiritual eyes and ears.

This is so true....and of course Drew would take a part of the article out of context in the same way he takes scripture out of context and changes it.
 
jgredline said:
Solo said:
Fire is only an agent of destruction in the physical realm. Jesus teaches that the souls of the unrighteous are punished for eternity in everlasting fire. This is a spiritual torment, which can not be understood by the natural man. The physical realm will be destroyed by fire, but the unrighteous souls will be tormented for eternity with spiritual unending fire. Simple for those with spiritual eyes and ears.
This is so true....and of course Drew would take a part of the article out of context in the same way he takes scripture out of context and changes it.
I will leave it to the reader to judge whether I am the one who changes the meaning of things. I happen to believe that death means death, that destruction means destruction, and that sleep means something other than full-blown conscious experience with sensation, thought, and conversation. You guys seem to believe none of these things.

Do you think that rendering Solo's quote in larger fonts makes it more true? I think actual arguments are more effective. The quote from Solo is really just an assertion - an assertion that the unrighteous are punished with eternal fire. And of course there is the usual dismissive remark suggesting that those who do not share his view have some kind of spiritual deficit.

Do the others who have spiritual eyes and ears share your position about Ecclesiastes 12:7 which states:

and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it


In the context of a discussion of Luke 16 and Ecclesiastes 12:7, you posted:

Solo said:
First of all, I do not believe that God sent the rich man's spirit to place of torment in Sheol/Hades. I believe that the man sent himself there. When his spirit/soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state.

You seem to deny that the rich man's spirit goes back to God. Instead of going up to God, you seem to believe that it goes down to Hades. Would you please clarify for us without spiritual eyes and ears how this does not amount to an effective dismisal of Ecclesiastes 12:7?
 
Drew said:
You seem to deny that the rich man's spirit goes back to God. Instead of going up to God, you seem to believe that it goes down to Hades. Would you please clarify for us without spiritual eyes and ears how this does not amount to an effective dismisal of Ecclesiastes 12:7?

Drew, drew, drew....I have already explained this verse to you and what it means....OK, Let me do this. I will give you a more basic description as opposed to a theological description....

Lets look at the verse...7 and 8 capture the context, but for the sake of the scriptures I will post up the whole context of what Solomon is saying....
Ecc 12:1-8 kjv
1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: 3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, 4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; 5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.




Ok, lets look at the final description of death that Solomon gave us..If you look closely, you will notice that it is a ''reversal of Creation''. The dust of the body returns to the ground it came from and the breath of life to God who gave it. (''spirit'' and “breath†are translations of the same Heb. word rûaḥ)So here Solomon is obviously alluding to part of the Creation account in Gen. 2:7; ....man was made from the dust of the ground and was given breath... This makes it ''evident'' that Solomon was not referring to the return of individual human spirits to God for judgment....

There are other very similar descriptions of death as a dissolution of the body and the withdrawal of the breath of God.....They can be found if Job 34:14-15 and Ps 104:29-30

OK, now compare the passages with Ecclesiastes 12:7.... It makes it perfectly clear that the description of the return of the breath of life given here does not contradict ecc 3:20 that Guibox likes to throw around..... Anyway, there Solomon, writing about the common destiny of people and animals, had denied the possibility of demonstrating a diffference in the disposition of their life breaths.... Wheather a human’s breath went upward to God and wheather an animal’s went down to the earth......

OK, now lets look a little bit further....What does God do with the Soul / Spirit once it goes back to him...(remember that soul and spirit are used interchangeably through out the bible....As has already been proven...)

Well that answer can again be answered with Scripture... no need to guess...

In the case of the ''believer'' the spirit will reign with Jesus forevere enjoying eternal life....John 3:16... and for the non believer, he will live in in eternal torment forever..Rev 3:20....
 
jgredline said:
Ok, lets look at the final description of death that Solomon gave us..If you look closely, you will notice that it is a ''reversal of Creation''. The dust of the body returns to the ground it came from and the breath of life to God who gave it. (''spirit'' and “breath†are translations of the same Heb. word rûaḥ)So here Solomon is obviously alluding to part of the Creation account in Gen. 2:7; ....man was made from the dust of the ground and was given breath... This makes it ''evident'' that Solomon was not referring to the return of individual human spirits to God for judgment.

There are other very similar descriptions of death as a dissolution of the body and the withdrawal of the breath of God.....They can be found if Job 34:14-15 and Ps 104:29-30

OK, now compare the passages with Ecclesiastes 12:7.... It makes it perfectly clear that the description of the return of the breath of life given here does not contradict ecc 3:20 that Guibox likes to throw around..... Anyway, there Solomon, writing about the common destiny of people and animals, had denied the possibility of demonstrating a diffference in the disposition of their life breaths.... Wheather a human’s breath went upward to God and wheather an animal’s went down to the earth......

OK, now lets look a little bit further....What does God do with the Soul / Spirit once it goes back to him...(remember that soul and spirit are used interchangeably through out the bible....As has already been proven...)

Well that answer can again be answered with Scripture... no need to guess...

In the case of the ''believer'' the spirit will reign with Jesus forevere enjoying eternal life....John 3:16... and for the non believer, he will live in in eternal torment forever..Rev 3:20....

Jg you may not realize it, but you are supporting my argument against the position of Solo. So, I can only assume that you disagree with him when he seems to clearly deny that the spirit of unredeemed man returns to God.

Here is what Solo has said about the fate of the rich man:

Solo said:
When his spirit/soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state.

Here is what you say in your post above about the fate of the unredeemed:

jgredline said:
What does God do with the Soul / Spirit once it goes back to him...

So obviously you believe that the soul / spirit of the rich man did return to God (and perhaps was only then immediately redirected down to Hades). This seems like a wild system but at least it does not deny Eccl 12:7.

So I have no idea what to make of your post.

Can you perhaps clarify: Do you believe that soul/spirit of the rich man went to God at his death? Solo believes that it did not (unless he chose the wrong words - and that's no crime).
 
Drew said:
Can you perhaps clarify: Do you believe that soul/spirit of the rich man went to God at his death? Solo believes that it did not (unless he chose the wrong words - and that's no crime).

Technically speaking, here the bible is not totally clear....which technically does not matter because the end result is still the same....Let me offer ''my opinion''

a) The unbeliever dies and his soul goes directly to hades as Solo said
''When his spirit/soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state.'' because this Soul was not justified...In other words, this Soul did not have the seal of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification...and is now in Hades awaiting the Great white thrown judgement...where his spirit will go back to God....

b) The unbeliever dies and his soul/spirit goes directly to God where God tells / sees ''as if he did not know'' that he is not sealed by the Holy Spirit and God sends him to hades in a low flame to await final judgement...so like Solo said
''When his soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state.'' because this Soul was not justified...In other words, this Soul did not have the seal of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification...and is now in Hades awaiting the Great white thrown judgement...

So no matter which order of events you choose the end result is still the same....Its simply a matter if the soul/spirit visits God before or after hades, he is still going to see him..So you see there is no contradiction....
 
jgredline said:
Technically speaking, here the bible is not totally clear....which technically does not matter because the end result is still the same....Let me offer ''my opinion''

a) The unbeliever dies and his soul goes directly to hades as Solo said
''When his spirit/soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state.'' because this Soul was not justified...In other words, this Soul did not have the seal of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification...and is now in Hades awaiting the Great white thrown judgement...where his spirit will go back to God....

b) The unbeliever dies and his soul/spirit goes directly to God where God tells / sees ''as if he did not know'' that he is not sealed by the Holy Spirit and God sends him to hades in a low flame to await final judgement...so like Solo said
''When his soul left his body, it went to it place of eternal residence based on his condemned state.'' because this Soul was not justified...In other words, this Soul did not have the seal of the Holy Spirit that happens at justification...and is now in Hades awaiting the Great white thrown judgement...

So no matter which order of events you choose the end result is still the same....Its simply a matter if the soul/spirit visits God before or after hades, he is still going to see him..So you see there is no contradiction....
OK. I have difficulty with (a) since it contradicts Ecclesiastes 2:7 which, to me, clearly states that the spirit goes to back to God. You present an alternative (b). Let's examine integrating (b) into the overall sequence of events that happens to the rich man accorfing to the view that I believe you hold (correct me where I am wrong). I am going to use Solo's "cosmology" (which he presented in an earlier post) as modificed by the assertion that the rich man's spirit did indeed go back to God as your assertion (b) allows. I have also assumed that, for the purposes of this subject, you guys believe in no distinction between spirit and soul. I believe that jg will agree with this and I think that Solo does as well although I am not sure about that.

1. The rich man dies.

2. The rich man's body goes into the ground, his soul/spirit goes up to God.

3. God immediately sends the rich man's soul / spirit down to flame and torment in Sheol/Hades.

4. At some point in the future, the rich man's soul is extracted from Hades, brought up to the place of Judgement and subjected to a judgement that determines his level of torment.

5. The rich man is cast down into the lake of fire with Hades and death and satan and satan's angels and the false prophet and the beast. He experience never-ending torment.

Up...down...up....down. This sounds this like a very complicated theology. I am necessarily saying that any particular poster believes this, but if you do, I would suggest that its convolutedness should at least be a warning that something is wrong. And we have jg's qualification that the rich man is under "low heat". So we also have the "low heat" to "high heat" transition to remember.

I want to be clear, being complicated does not necessarily make a theology wrong, but there is something about this bouncing up and down that might raise a suspicion or two.

How does the reader judge the above timeline of events given strong Biblical evidence as per the following:

1. The dead know nothing.

2. The dead "sleep"

3. The ultimate fate of the wicked is that "they will be no more".

4. The ultimate fate of the wicked is compared to clear phyical processes where chaff, wood, etc is burned in a fire, and we all know that this process does not reach a steady state - it carries on until the wood or chaff is gone.

I woud suggest that such a theology simply ignores all these Scriptural teachings.
 
Here are two texts that deal with Sodom & Gomorrah (I have added the bolding)

Jude 7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting KJV) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter.

To me this is powerful evidence of the Biblical use of "eternal / everlasting" at least in relation to fire. Using Scripture to understand scripture, it certainly seems that eternal does not always mean eternal in relation to punishment by fire.

S&G are said to have undergone punishment by eternal fire. Yet they are also said to have been destroyed unto ashes. Clearly the same event. We can see a pretty clear Biblical precedent of how "eternal fire" results in the total annihilation of something. Very powerful evidence against the "you have to read 'eternal' as never-ending" which, as I see it, is the lynchpin to the 'eternal torment' argument.
 
sigh....I have already addressed these questions....with good biblically based answers.... we are going in :fadein:
 
Again with reference to Sodom & Gomorrah:

Luke 17:29-30

"But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed"

This is yet another case where Jesus makes it clear that the fire that was used to judge S&G (referred to as "eternal fire" in Jude 7) was in fact fire that destroyed these towns.

Some argue that the "eternal fire" referred to in Jude is to be understood as the punishment in neverending hellfire that was applied to their inhabitants.

At least 2 problems with this:

1. This is not what the Jude 7 texts says - it refers to the destruction of the towns, not the fate of the souls therein.

2. The Luke text makes a clear connection between what happened to S&G and what will happen when Christ returns. Now here is the problem: If it is the souls of the people in S&G that are being referred to in Jude 7, then I guess that Sheol must be the same as eternal hellfire.

Do you not see why? If the Jude 7 text indeed refers to people, then these people cannot be on "low burn" in Sheol. Why? Because Jesus says that at his return, the judgement that his return initiates will be just like what happened to S&G. But we all agree that this judgement will involve being cast into the lake of fire. So one would have to conclude that the souls of the people in S&G are in eternal hell-fire already. But I thought they were on low-burn in Sheol awaiting their judgement.

The idea that it is the fate of "souls" and not towns that is being referred to in Jude 7 does not seem to work when the Luke 17 text is brought to bear.
 
Only God can open the eyes and ears of the unbelieving; and only through the Word of God does He do so. To reject the Word of God is to reject the path of salvation. Only when the "natural" man repents and believes can he be saved and taught by the Holy Spirit. Until then he remains condemned as Jesus teaches in John 3. A man is condemned already until he is born again of God. It does not matter how many works or studies one does of the Scripture, the "natural" man will never, never, never understand the spiritual things of God. Period.
 
Drew said:
I want to be clear, being complicated does not necessarily make a theology wrong, but there is something about this bouncing up and down that might raise a suspicion or two.

How does the reader judge the above timeline of events given strong Biblical evidence as per the following:

1. The dead know nothing.
The rich man died and was buried and he knew Father Abraham. He knew that he was in torment. He knew that he was in need of a little water. He remembered his lost brothers. He knew Lazarus. Jesus does not lie as biased men do. Jesus does not teach false representations of what is when teaching. Jesus is plain out speaking the truth concerning the condition of the righteous and unrighteous after they leave their physical body at the point of death.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:22-31

Drew said:
2. The dead "sleep"
The body sleeps awaiting resurrection while the spirit is alive in the spiritual realm of God. Luke 16 is very clear on this. While the body sleeps in the grave, the spirits of the righteous await the resurrection day where they will be given a glorified body as Jesus Christ currently has.

The righteous sleep or rest under the altar of God Almighty until all is completed on earth. When Jesus returns, the bodies of the righteous will be resurrected and meet their spirits in the air.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11

Drew said:
3. The ultimate fate of the wicked is that "they will be no more".
Satan would have all believe that the wicked would be no more, however the Scripture is much clearer than the lies of the devil. In John 3, Jesus teaches that those who are born on earth are condemned already until they are born of again of God. Jesus teaches that the departed spirits of the dead go to the spiritual realm of Sheol/Hades or to the Altar of God. The unrighteous go to Sheol/Hades and the righteous go to the Altar of God. What happens to the unrighteous in Sheol/Hades? Let us let the Word of God teach us instead of the trickery of the devil.

Death and Hell (Sheol/Hades) were cast into the Lake of Fire.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14

The beast, the false prophet, and those that recieved the mark of the beast and worshipped him were cast ALIVE in the lake of fire.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

Those not found in the book of life are also cast into the lake of fire. If they are dead and cease to exist, why are they cast into the lake of fire?

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

Those that are cast into the lake of fire do not cease to exist, but are instead tormented day and night forever. As Jesus teaches in Matthew 25, the righteous will go into life eternal, and the unrighteous will go into everlasting punishment. The Greek word translated eternal is the same word translated everlasting.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46

Drew said:
4. The ultimate fate of the wicked is compared to clear phyical processes where chaff, wood, etc is burned in a fire, and we all know that this process does not reach a steady state - it carries on until the wood or chaff is gone.

I woud suggest that such a theology simply ignores all these Scriptural teachings.
The works of the righteous and wicked that are done in the flesh are compared to wood, hay, and stubble. The individuals are not considered wood, hay, or stubble as Drew states. Drew's misnomer fits his false teachings and bias, but does not conform to the teachings of the Word of God.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-14

The chaff that is burned in Matthew 3:12 is a picture of the wicked being destroyed by the unquenchable fire of God. After the physical is destroyed by physical fire, decomposition, etc. the spirit of the unrighteous is sent to the lake of unquenchable fire. The righteous are resurrected after the destruction of their physical body.

The teachings of Jesus are clear, and Jesus does not lie; but the devil lies, and those who are led by the devil also lie. Be very careful who you follow, and what you believe; for the devil is out to destroy the souls of whoever he can.

God bless each one on this forum, and may they gain the understanding and wisdom that God has to offer each of us.
 
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