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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Drew
Member
Code for: I have obviously lost the argument on its merits, so I will pull the only arrow out of my quiver that I can - the "old he's proven his case scripturally so I need to call him a minion of the devil" arrow.Solo said:
No one will fall for this.
Actually, some probably will.
And that is part of the reason why the church is so ineffectual....
Drew
Member
Let's examine this challenge my claim that the dead "know nothing" and the dead "sleep". There is really no difference in these 2 claims - the reference to sleep implies a state of non-consciousness. In Ecclesiastes 9, the author states:
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
Now here is a long list of texts that suggest that the dead sleep.
1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it will come about, as soon as my lord the king sleeps with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon will be considered offenders."
Job 14:12
So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God;
Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".
1 Corinthians 15:51
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
Acts 7:59-60
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:18
Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep
.
1 Thessalonians 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
2 Peter 3:4
Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
Now, the person who believes that the dead transition seamlessly into a state of conscious existence have a real problem here. What is the strategy? It is to argue as follows:
This notion that the body sleeps while the soul / spirit lives on only works if one does not devote another 10 seconds or so of good old fashioned thinking. The whole idea self-destructs when one comes to understand that, in this dualistic conception of man, it is the soul that is the seat of consciousness and thinking - Solo has made this clear. So apparently this is not the part that sleeps. Suspicions should be aroused at this point - it is simply not sensible to say that a person's body sleeps and their conscious, thinking part remains in full flower of activity. Do any of you experience sleep like this? This is not sleep - would a person tightly bound so their body cannot move be said to asleep even if they are fully conscious?
And we have not even yet asked the question: Why do none of these texts not draw the body / soul distinction that Solo argues for? It is a key distinction and there is a lot of explaining to do as to why this distinction is not made in any of these texts. Imagine that Fred makes 10 statements which are all variations on "My car was stolen" when the real intent is to say "My car's engine was stolen". And yet we are being asked to do the same thing here in respect to the body/soul distinction.
As for Revelation 6, I await an explanation of how a disembodied soul can be under an altar. To believe that disembodied souls are being referred to here is to come up with a curious hybrid domain where something "physical" - an altar - is on top of a bunch of non-physical souls. Well this is perhaps to be expected in a convoluted cosmology where Hades, while below the earth, has a paradise part that is far above the "torment" part yet also below the earth.
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
Now here is a long list of texts that suggest that the dead sleep.
1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it will come about, as soon as my lord the king sleeps with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon will be considered offenders."
Job 14:12
So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God;
Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".
1 Corinthians 15:51
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
Acts 7:59-60
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:18
Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep
.
1 Thessalonians 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
2 Peter 3:4
Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
Now, the person who believes that the dead transition seamlessly into a state of conscious existence have a real problem here. What is the strategy? It is to argue as follows:
Solo said:
This notion that the body sleeps while the soul / spirit lives on only works if one does not devote another 10 seconds or so of good old fashioned thinking. The whole idea self-destructs when one comes to understand that, in this dualistic conception of man, it is the soul that is the seat of consciousness and thinking - Solo has made this clear. So apparently this is not the part that sleeps. Suspicions should be aroused at this point - it is simply not sensible to say that a person's body sleeps and their conscious, thinking part remains in full flower of activity. Do any of you experience sleep like this? This is not sleep - would a person tightly bound so their body cannot move be said to asleep even if they are fully conscious?
And we have not even yet asked the question: Why do none of these texts not draw the body / soul distinction that Solo argues for? It is a key distinction and there is a lot of explaining to do as to why this distinction is not made in any of these texts. Imagine that Fred makes 10 statements which are all variations on "My car was stolen" when the real intent is to say "My car's engine was stolen". And yet we are being asked to do the same thing here in respect to the body/soul distinction.
As for Revelation 6, I await an explanation of how a disembodied soul can be under an altar. To believe that disembodied souls are being referred to here is to come up with a curious hybrid domain where something "physical" - an altar - is on top of a bunch of non-physical souls. Well this is perhaps to be expected in a convoluted cosmology where Hades, while below the earth, has a paradise part that is far above the "torment" part yet also below the earth.
Drew
Member
Solo said:
Consider the following texts. Is it the wicked themselves or their works that are consumed by fire?:
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â
Matthew 3:10-12 "The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire"
Note that an explicit distinction is drawn be the tree and its fruit, and we are clearly told that it is the tree that is thrown into the fire.
Hebrews 6:8 “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.â€Â
What is it that is burned? It is that which beareth thorns and briers. Let the reader draw the obvious conclusion.
Malachi 4:1,3 “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.â€Â
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume awayâ€Â
Psalm 21:9 “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.â€Â
Hebrews 10:27 “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversariesâ€Â
Isaiah 33:12 “And the people shall be as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fireâ€Â
Nahum 1:9-10 "What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."
Matthew 13:40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world."
John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
In this last text from John, it is clearly the man that is the thing that is burned, regardless of what may happen to his works.
These texts are devastating to any implication that the wicked do not burn away to nothinhg and that only their works do. Do not be deceived by bad arguments - just because there are texts that suggest that a man's works are also subjected to fire, this does not mean that he himself will not.
jgredline
Member
Drew
It all comes down to this....
Man is not a monistc being, Man is a dichotomy if he is a non believer and a trichotomy if he is a believer....Until you learn to understand this very simple and very basic theology (theology 101) you will keep contradicting yourself along with the scriptures....For the believer this is very easy to understand.....
What you teach is against what Jesus taught.
Who are people to believe. You or Jesus?
It all comes down to this....
Man is not a monistc being, Man is a dichotomy if he is a non believer and a trichotomy if he is a believer....Until you learn to understand this very simple and very basic theology (theology 101) you will keep contradicting yourself along with the scriptures....For the believer this is very easy to understand.....
What you teach is against what Jesus taught.
Who are people to believe. You or Jesus?
Drew
Member
I can only ask people to read and consider the actual arguments on both side. I will ask the reader to determine for his or herself whether the Bible teaches that man is wholistic or dualistic. We all know what the conventional default view is, but does the Bible really support it? The key question to ask the enquirer: Have you granted the mere possibility that this dualist / trichotomous conceptualization is incorrect? if you have not, then, to be frank, you are not the kind of person who is serious in the pursuit of the truth.jgredline said:
And please, the "who are people going to believe, you or Jesus" is a politician's tactic. Anybody with at least a handful of neurons knows that what Jesus is actually teaching is part of the very matter at issue.
Hopefully, people will judge on the content of the arguments.
S
Solo
Guest
People who have the Spirit of God dwelling within them will see the truth of the teachings of Jesus Christ; and they will know quite quickly the lies and deceptions of the enemy, satan.
All of the twisting of the Scriptures will not be enough to deceive the elect; only the lost will follow such lies.
Jesus' teachings are clear, and they are in direct opposition to the teachings of Annihilationists and the "no soul" group.
All readers beware of the twisting of Scripture; and note the differences between the destruction of the flesh and ungodliness and the punishment of the spiritual for eternity.
The reason that annihilationists cannot believe in the existence of the body, soul, and spirit is that it completely "annihilates" their theology. I would not expect the false teachers to "owe up" to the false teachings that they teach until they repent and are born again of God.
All of the twisting of the Scriptures will not be enough to deceive the elect; only the lost will follow such lies.
Jesus' teachings are clear, and they are in direct opposition to the teachings of Annihilationists and the "no soul" group.
All readers beware of the twisting of Scripture; and note the differences between the destruction of the flesh and ungodliness and the punishment of the spiritual for eternity.
The reason that annihilationists cannot believe in the existence of the body, soul, and spirit is that it completely "annihilates" their theology. I would not expect the false teachers to "owe up" to the false teachings that they teach until they repent and are born again of God.
jgredline
Member
Drew said:
Drew
You try and turn this accusation around when ''in fact'' it is you you have taken scripture and changed it...Do I need to copy and paste it here for the readers?
Drew you have also admitted to being an open theist and do not believe God knows the end of time...so of course it is in your best interest to hold to annhilationism....
Yes the readers should know the facts.....
Drew
Member
Please go ahead. I would be delighted if those who have joined this debate late are exposed to that whole exchange. I am more than happy to let the readers judge between our respective points of view on that whole matter. I "changed" Scripture as part of a clearly articulated thought experiment., clearly expressed as a "what if the Scriptures said....."jgredline said:
You guys, on the other hand, have changed "death" to mean "life", "sleep" to mean "full conscious awareness" and "consumption / devouring" to mean "preservation". And its no thought experiment - its the real deal.
Drew
Member
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude is expressing the view that S&G serve as an example of something - those who are punished by eternal fire. Well, what do other texts have to say about this?
2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
Luke 17:26-30
Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
I see a clear harmony of theme here. The fate of the ungodly in a yet-to-come time of judgement is likened unto what happened to S&G. And both the 2 Peter text and the Luke text are unequivocal - S&G are destroyed. 2 Peter even drives home the point that this is not this odd "destruction = a state where the thing in the fire is maintained forever" kind of destruction. It is a kind of destruction where the thing is reduced to ashes.
If this were not enough of a challenge for those who believe that the fate of the lost is "eternal preservation in torment" and not destruction, we have to conclude a cause and effect relationship between "eternal fire" from Jude 7 and the destruction to ashes that we see in 2 Peter and in Luke. All these texts are clearly all talking about the same thing - what happened to S&G.
This is clear example of how Scripture interprets Scripture. The harmony of these texts strongly suggests that "eternal fire" destroys, it reduces to ashes. So it is entirely justifiable to interpret other references to eternality in reference to the fate of the lost in precisely this way.
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude is expressing the view that S&G serve as an example of something - those who are punished by eternal fire. Well, what do other texts have to say about this?
2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
Luke 17:26-30
Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
I see a clear harmony of theme here. The fate of the ungodly in a yet-to-come time of judgement is likened unto what happened to S&G. And both the 2 Peter text and the Luke text are unequivocal - S&G are destroyed. 2 Peter even drives home the point that this is not this odd "destruction = a state where the thing in the fire is maintained forever" kind of destruction. It is a kind of destruction where the thing is reduced to ashes.
If this were not enough of a challenge for those who believe that the fate of the lost is "eternal preservation in torment" and not destruction, we have to conclude a cause and effect relationship between "eternal fire" from Jude 7 and the destruction to ashes that we see in 2 Peter and in Luke. All these texts are clearly all talking about the same thing - what happened to S&G.
This is clear example of how Scripture interprets Scripture. The harmony of these texts strongly suggests that "eternal fire" destroys, it reduces to ashes. So it is entirely justifiable to interpret other references to eternality in reference to the fate of the lost in precisely this way.
jgredline
Member
Drew
Here is a simple question for you.
The Bible teaches Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The Greek pretty says the exact same thing....
So how is it possible to be judged if by your definition death is death, die is die?....Or is God going to judge a dead body?...lets see you weasel out of this one....
Here is a simple question for you.
The Bible teaches Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
The Greek pretty says the exact same thing....
So how is it possible to be judged if by your definition death is death, die is die?....Or is God going to judge a dead body?...lets see you weasel out of this one....
jgredline said:
Resurrection anyone? The dead are resurrected and judged.
If death is not death and die is not die how come there is a second death after resurrection that one group is immune from? If the dead don't really die then how come these dead die a second death?
Want to weasel out of this one? :wink: :-D
Drew
Member
I hope that I never stated that when an unredeemed person dies physically, they are dead, dead, dead, never to be resurrected. I believe what I think the Scriptures rather clearly teach in respect to the unredeemed: they die physically (the "first" death), they "sleep", they are called forth, judged and cast into the lake of fire where they are annihilated. This is, not surprisingly, the "second death" and it is hard to see how being under torment Hades can be appropriately be called a "first death" since it has all the characteristics of life (consciousness, thought, etc), not death.jgredline said:
I believe that the ultimate fate of the unredeemed is a second death by annihilation in the lake of fire after being called forth from their first death (a state which could not be better described than by the word "sleep" since they do indeed waken). So when I make all these statement about the unredeemed being consumed into nothingness, rendered to "be no more", devoured, I refer to their ultimate fate in the lake of fire.
The only weaseling that I think needs to be done is the weaseling needed to explain how someone like the rich man, who is apparently already in torment in flames, is in a "first death" state since his condition is not at all like death. In the view that I am espousing, both the state prior to resurrection and judgement as well as the state of eventual end annihilation can be legitimately described as "sleep" and "death" respectively, without turning the meaning of both these words upside down.
So I am not exactly what you see as problematic with my position. If I ever stated or implied that the wages of sin is "extinction / annihilation upon physical death", that would have been an error of expression on my part. I do not believe that the unredeemed die physically and never have another experience.
And I really do not see how it is you agree with Tan. I believe that his position is either the same as, or close to, mine.
I will show you:Drew said:
The big problem with this is that the term "sleep" is never used of the unrighteous, only the righteous, yet both are resurrected to face the Judgement.Drew said:
Why is any weaseling needed? A logical explanation is that there is something supernatural that survives the death of the natural.Drew said:
Drew
Member
This claim appears to be false. The term is used of the unrighteous in Daniel 12:2:Free said:
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
This text clearly identifies that the unrighteous do sleep.
Also, I suspect that readers will agree that the context of Job 14 makes it clear that man in general is described in the following text
Job 14:12
So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
There may be more, but these 2 seem to make it clear that the unrighteous do sleep.
Drew
Member
Free said:
But my point is that if a fully conscious, thinking, communicating, aware entitly survives physical death, this creates the following problems in the immediate context we are talking about (as well as creating many other problems as well):
1. It denies Scriptural statements that the dead, including the unredeemed dead, sleep (example: Daniel 12:2). Sleep does not entail full consciousness.
2. It denies the very strong implications that, if there is a second death as testified to as follows, then there, of course, has to be a first death. And for that first death to be in any sense true to the "cessation of life functions" implication of the word "death", the first death really cannot entail the full conscious state that people are committing to when they claim that the rich man is in torment in flames at this very moment.:
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
jg, jg, jg, jg...
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You would like to make the 'spirit that goes back to God who gave it' in Ecclesiastes mean simply the 'life force' as is mentioned in Genesis 2. You even quote the Hebrew 'ruach' to support your opinion.
Yet you fail to realize that there are not two different 'ruachs' and that the same words used in Ecclesiastes are the exact ones used to speak of both Christ's 'spirit' and Stephen's 'spirit' that goes back to God in the NT.
These two occurences in the NT are the very foundation of the believe that 'my soul goes to heaven at my physical death'. These texts and only these texts alone give one that theology.
However, the same process and the same substance in these NT instances are the same in Ecclesiastes. The apostles directly BORROWED these quotes FROM the OT. The fact that you'd like ot make one mean 'life force' with no substance and the other 'the living, cogitating functioning essence of man' shows how badly you are willing to twist the scriptures to fit your theology.
This is the problem for you folks (well one of the many problems that Drew has pointed out and nobody can explain or logically answer).
It was the 'thinking, feeling, cogitating' part of man that held the consciousness to the Hebrews. What we call the mind, they called the 'nephesh'. When the Bible says 'So man dies, his breath goeth forth, in that very day his thoughts perish', they would be talking about what is traditionally thought of as the 'soul'.
To the Hebrews, the body would never be spoken of as 'sleeping', 'thoughts perishing' 'no more wisdom, knowledge or might'. They are speaking of the 'thinking, cogitiating, higher functioning of man' what we call the mind and what is called the 'soul'.
You cannot say that all these texts talk merely about the body because only the 'body' never did such things to the Hebrews.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You would like to make the 'spirit that goes back to God who gave it' in Ecclesiastes mean simply the 'life force' as is mentioned in Genesis 2. You even quote the Hebrew 'ruach' to support your opinion.
Yet you fail to realize that there are not two different 'ruachs' and that the same words used in Ecclesiastes are the exact ones used to speak of both Christ's 'spirit' and Stephen's 'spirit' that goes back to God in the NT.
These two occurences in the NT are the very foundation of the believe that 'my soul goes to heaven at my physical death'. These texts and only these texts alone give one that theology.
However, the same process and the same substance in these NT instances are the same in Ecclesiastes. The apostles directly BORROWED these quotes FROM the OT. The fact that you'd like ot make one mean 'life force' with no substance and the other 'the living, cogitating functioning essence of man' shows how badly you are willing to twist the scriptures to fit your theology.
This is the problem for you folks (well one of the many problems that Drew has pointed out and nobody can explain or logically answer).
It was the 'thinking, feeling, cogitating' part of man that held the consciousness to the Hebrews. What we call the mind, they called the 'nephesh'. When the Bible says 'So man dies, his breath goeth forth, in that very day his thoughts perish', they would be talking about what is traditionally thought of as the 'soul'.
To the Hebrews, the body would never be spoken of as 'sleeping', 'thoughts perishing' 'no more wisdom, knowledge or might'. They are speaking of the 'thinking, cogitiating, higher functioning of man' what we call the mind and what is called the 'soul'.
You cannot say that all these texts talk merely about the body because only the 'body' never did such things to the Hebrews.