What do you think?

[Drew]

Hi Stranger:

I get the impression that you believe that the annihilationist is forced into a position where he has to deal with the "undestructablility" of the resurrection body that the unredeemed get Is this a correct characterization of your view?

I guess what puzzles me about this is the following: What is it about the terms of the annihilationist argument and / or the content of the Scriptures that makes you think that we annihilationists have to hold the view that the resurrection body of the unredeemed shares the same imperishable property that applies to the resurrection bodies of the redeemed.

Is your argument that both sets of people get "spiritual" bodies and therefore if one group gets imperishable bodies, they both do? If so, I would claim that 1 cor 15 is really only talking about the redeemed and is basically silent on the bodies that the unredeemed get.

By the way, I believe that the Scriptures do not contain an explicit declaration to the effect that "the resurrection bodies of the unredeemed are perishable". By contrast, 1 cor 15 explicitly states that the redeemed get imperiable bodies. But the absence of the former explicit declaration does not seem problematic to me. Is the absence of such a statement a part of your objection to the annihilation position?

 

[jgredline]

Pope says hell and damnation are real and eternal

HELL is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, Pope Benedict XVI has said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21460090-2,00.html

 

[Solo]

If one perishes when one dies and is found unrighteous without the shed blood of Jesus Christ, why would this one be resurrected to be allowed to perish again? A ridiculous concept even with man's finite reasoning skills.

 

[Drew]

If one perishes when one dies and is found unrighteous without the shed blood of Jesus Christ, why would this one be resurrected to be allowed to perish again? A ridiculous concept even with man's finite reasoning skills.

I guess ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. According to your view:

1. The rich man is now in torment in flames only to be pulled out, judged, and then tossed back into flames.

2. Being "made alive" as per Paul's statement in 1 Cor 15 means to wrap an already fully conscious, thinking soul in a flesh covering. Sounds more like "getting dressed" than being "made alive".

3. Destroy means to preserve.

4. Things thrown into a fire do not burn.

5. Sleep involves full conscious awareness.

And so on.

 

[Guest]

No offense is intended to those participating in this discussion, but in reading it - it appears that it continues to go around and around and around.

Drew - if I may ask, point blank, what is the outcome of the annhilist position? In other words - how does the rubber meet the road? How does the annhilist doctrine live out in practice?

 

[Solo]

I guess ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. According to your view:

1. The rich man is now in torment in flames only to be pulled out, judged, and then tossed back into flames.

2. Being "made alive" as per Paul's statement in 1 Cor 15 means to wrap an already fully conscious, thinking soul in a flesh covering. Sounds more like "getting dressed" than being "made alive".

3. Destroy means to preserve.

4. Things thrown into a fire do not burn.

5. Sleep involves full conscious awareness.

And so on.

I never said that the rich man was ever pulled out of Sheol/Hades. He remains in the torment of Hades and is then judged after which comes the lake of fire.

As far as the remaining points that you make; they are ridiculous from a physical natural point of view. Remember what the Scripture says about those who think that the spiritual things of God are foolishness.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[guibox]

As far as the remaining points that you make; they are ridiculous from a physical natural point of view. Remember what the Scripture says about those who think that the spiritual things of God are foolishness.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Funny how when one points out ludicrous contradictions that one is guilty of not discerning spiritual things but when one actually makes the Bible harmonize with itself in the case of annihilation and judgement at the end of time and not at death, one is guilty of 'twisting the words of Christ', 'apostasy' and 'speaking the words of the devil'

It is no wonder you guys believe such warped theology with such a cultic mindset.

 

[Drew]

Drew - if I may ask, point blank, what is the outcome of the annhilist position? In other words - how does the rubber meet the road? How does the annhilist doctrine live out in practice?

A wise friend of mine has said "bad theology always has consequences". And I think that the content of this thread has shown that "eternal torment" is indeed bad theology.

I think that the harmony I see in the Scriptures regarding the fate of the unredeemed has strengthened my belief in the power of the Scriptures as God's revealed word. We see the various authors of the Bible presenting a consistent picture using a wide range of metaphors and turns of phrase. I think the evidence is overwhelming - the unredeemed are annihilated and are not tormented forever. The harmony and coherence of the Scriptures on this matter is evidence of their inspiration.

How does this change the way we live? For those who are inclined to vindictiveness and secretly (and not secretly) take delight in the thought of the wicked being tormented forever, the truth of annihilation serves to moderate that tendency. And that tendency does exist - hang around here long enough and challenge the views of the wrong people and you will see it.

I also think that the knowledge that the unredeemed, while subject to real punishment, are not tormented forever helps us to have a proper understanding of the nature of God's love. Sure, people say that eternal torment for the lost is somehow consistent with the notion of a loving God. But I will dare to suggest that this is "Christian soft-think" and that a hard look at the notion that the lost are tormented forever is simply incompatible with a loving God. By discovering that the Scriptures do not teach this after all, I feel that I have a model of love that is at least graspable and can influence the way I behave in the world for the better.

 

[jgredline]

A wise friend of mine has said "bad theology always has consequences". And I think that the content of this thread has shown that "eternal torment" is indeed bad theology.

This coming from an ''Open Theist''.. :-?

 

[Drew]

This coming from an ''Open Theist''.. :-?

I can understand your need to resort to this strategy. I might be tempted to do the same thing to salvage an untenable position.

 

[protos]

I can understand your need to resort to this strategy. I might be tempted to do the same thing to salvage an untenable position.

No actually the bad theology is in strenuous attempts to transform Christ's warnings of eternal torment into the political correctness of today's comformist world. I will read all of the posts and provide my personal opinions not only supported by Scripture, but systematic theology (or at least I hope so), so I won't post any Scripture that I consider rock-solid for pro-eternal torment, because likely it has been dealt with.

 

[Guest]

A wise friend of mine has said "bad theology always has consequences". And I think that the content of this thread has shown that "eternal torment" is indeed bad theology.

I think that the harmony I see in the Scriptures regarding the fate of the unredeemed has strengthened my belief in the power of the Scriptures as God's revealed word. We see the various authors of the Bible presenting a consistent picture using a wide range of metaphors and turns of phrase. I think the evidence is overwhelming - the unredeemed are annihilated and are not tormented forever. The harmony and coherence of the Scriptures on this matter is evidence of their inspiration.

How does this change the way we live? For those who are inclined to vindictiveness and secretly (and not secretly) take delight in the thought of the wicked being tormented forever, the truth of annihilation serves to moderate that tendency. And that tendency does exist - hang around here long enough and challenge the views of the wrong people and you will see it.

I also think that the knowledge that the unredeemed, while subject to real punishment, are not tormented forever helps us to have a proper understanding of the nature of God's love. Sure, people say that eternal torment for the lost is somehow consistent with the notion of a loving God. But I will dare to suggest that this is "Christian soft-think" and that a hard look at the notion that the lost are tormented forever is simply incompatible with a loving God. By discovering that the Scriptures do not teach this after all, I feel that I have a model of love that is at least graspable and can influence the way I behave in the world for the better.

No offense Drew - but you actually just did - what you accuse others of doing. And in the end - you did not really answer my question - rather you merely attacked the opposing view.

 

[Drew]

No offense Drew - but you actually just did - what you accuse others of doing. And in the end - you did not really answer my question - rather you merely attacked the opposing view.

I do not understand, what is it that I have done that I have accused others of doing?

And I did answer your question:

By discovering that the Scriptures do not teach this after all, I feel that I have a model of love that is at least graspable and can influence the way I behave in the world for the better.

I am not sure how to state this more clearly.

 

[stranger]

Drew,


How parables end.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man ends unfavourably for the annihilationist position since the rich man stays in hades in torment. He is not annihilated in the parable.

Can you cite one parable of Jesus where the unredeemed are annihilated?

 

[Drew]

Drew,


How parables end.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man ends unfavourably for the annihilationist position since the rich man stays in hades in torment. He is not annihilated in the parable.

I am mystified.

I (and others) believe this to be a parable - a literary device.

Let's say that I believe that, in the real world (not in the world of literary devices), wolves are incapable of blowing over straw houses. Sounds reasonable enough.

Now we are presented with the account of the wolf and the three little pigs. In this account, a wolf successfully blows down a straw house.

Does this throw into question my belief that wolves in the real world cannot blow down straw houses?

Of course not, if I can successfully argue that the account of the wolf and the pigs is an allegory whose purpose is to make some moral statement and not make statements about the structural integrity of straw houses under the strain of wolf breath.

 

[Solo]

I am mystified.

I (and others) believe this to be a parable - a literary device.

Let's say that I believe that, in the real world (not in the world of literary devices), wolves are incapable of blowing over straw houses. Sounds reasonable enough.

Now we are presented with the account of the wolf and the three little pigs. In this account, a wolf successfully blows down a straw house.

Does this throw into question my belief that wolves in the real world cannot blow down straw houses?

Of course not, if I can successfully argue that the account of the wolf and the pigs is an allegory whose purpose is to make some moral statement and not make statements about the structural integrity of straw houses under the strain of wolf breath.

Your argument just fell in the commode with your favorite nursery rhyme compared with a parable teaching of Jesus Christ; but hey, I am not surprised.

You would be better off taking a couple of Jesus' parables and making such a comparison to Luke 16. In fact, take all of Jesus' parable teachings and make a comparison to Luke 16. Also take the teaching of Luke 16 in context. Jesus is not teaching parables at the time He teaches Luke 16. You seem to be one that will grasp at straws to prove your bias over proving to yourself the truth of God's word.

 

[guibox]

Drew,


How parables end.

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man ends unfavourably for the annihilationist position since the rich man stays in hades in torment. He is not annihilated in the parable.

Can you cite one parable of Jesus where the unredeemed are annihilated?

It does nothing to the annihilationist position because two completely different things are being taken into account here. The rich man is in 'Hades' where he goes immediately after his physical death. Annihilation doesn't occur until the end of the millenium in Revelation 20 where ALL enemies of God: death, Hades, the wicked are cast into gehenna lake of fire where 'the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death'

This is not only a parable but cannot be used one iota to support the immortality of the soul, never mind eternal torment.

 

[Solo]

It does nothing to the annihilationist position because two completely different things are being taken into account here. The rich man is in 'Hades' where he goes immediately after his physical death. Annihilation doesn't occur until the end of the millenium in Revelation 20 where ALL enemies of God: death, Hades, the wicked are cast into gehenna lake of fire where 'the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death'

This is not only a parable but cannot be used one iota to support the immortality of the soul, never mind eternal torment.

Lies, lies, and more lies. Will you never learn to accept the truth of the living God?

 

[TanNinety]

Can you cite one parable of Jesus where the unredeemed are annihilated?

Matthew 21:40-41 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

But of course, according to eternal torment proponents “destroy†would mean “torment in hadesâ€Â. So again, I lose.

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who (God) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

If the rich man in hades was immortal, and if the rich man when thrown in the lake of fire is still going to be immortal then why the exhortation to SEEK immortality? Why are we told that we PUT ON immortality as if we don’t already posses it? Why is it that God alone is said to have immortality? Why is it that Christ had to bring immortality through the gospel if the rich man already possessed this immortality WITHOUT the gospel?

WAIT ..I know ..you are going to change the meaning of what immortality means.

Immortality = Eternal conscious presence in God.
Mortality = Eternal conscious separation from God.

YAY! ..There!!! I saved you a post. :-D

 

[Guest]

TanNinety - I would suggest that crux of the difference also lies with how you view the make-up of mankind.

I would suggest that you would need to figure out if the verse is speaking to the soul, the spirit, or the physical body.