What does it mean for the Christian to stumble?

[JLB]

Mate I have to be honest I have no idea what heresy is. I researched it and can't come to a conclusion on its meaning and consequences.

Ok, that's fair.

The Strongs doesn't give much to work with, and I suspect the modern meaning may have evolved since those days, as I'm sure Paul, who warned us about these last days and the many false doctrines that we would encounter, didn't have specific knowledge of each and every one, but more of a general knowledge that...in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 1 Timothy 4:1-2

By contextual definition, a doctrine that causes someone to depart from the faith, which is the point of this thread that Jethro started, and is about false doctrine that causes folks to stumble, which as you can see from the many post's, means among other things, to fall away, or depart from Christ; ie: fall into deception.

The OSAS doctrine teaches that a person needs no longer, to continue to have faith in Christ, to remain saved.

The Holy Spirit says... Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

A teaching that causes a person to depart from the faith, is a doctrine of demons, that comes from deceiving spirits, and not the Spirit of Christ.

That would be a good start as to what heresy is.

To be honest, just because a person says that another is teaching heresy, does not necessarily mean they are indeed teaching heresy.

I hope as to the consequences, you can see what that is from Galatians 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

Do you understand this phrase, as to what "will not inherit the kingdom of God" means?

In addition, Paul associates heresy with sorcery, sexual immorality.

Here is another place Paul uses this phrase.

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

fornicators
idolaters
adulterers
homosexuals
sodomites

These are among those who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those Christians who repent and turn from these things, will be forgiven by our merciful Savior, but those who continue to practice these things, and die unrepentant of these things, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If you or anyone else is interested in TRUTH then they should be interested in what Joseph Prince REALLY teaches about marriage and sexual immorality of ANY kind.

This is one of his regular sermons from 2013 I believe. You can start listening about this subject at about the 23 min. mark or at the 40 min. mark to hear him explicitly state what God's marriage is and that ANY sexual acts outside of God's marriage is sexual immorality, sin. He is a strong teacher against any type of sexual immorality at all.

See post #59.

What does he teach in 2016.

Jim Jones was a good teacher and loving Pastor... until he wasn't.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If you or anyone else is interested in TRUTH then they should be interested in what Joseph Prince REALLY teaches about marriage and sexual immorality of ANY kind.

This is one of his regular sermons from 2013 I believe. You can start listening about this subject at about the 23 min. mark or at the 40 min. mark to hear him explicitly state what God's marriage is and that ANY sexual acts outside of God's marriage is sexual immorality, sin. He is a strong teacher against any type of sexual immorality at all.

No offence, but he reminds me of Prince in that picture.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See post #59.

I do not know anything about Joseph Prince, except that he is a prosperity gospel teacher.
I've only been addressing the doctrine of hyper-grace. There about four or five regular hyper-grace posters in this forum.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jim Jones was a good teacher and loving Pastor... until he wasn't.

My mentor/pastor screened religious programs for the 700 Club in the Atlanta area. He said he passed on Jim Jones' program because of something he did in one of his shows. Turns out his discernment had been correct.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but you have attributed OSAS as being a lie of Satan that has infiltrated the church. So to to you it must be heresy. That being the case are the OSAS camp going to hell?

If you don't mind me jumping in here...

IMO, the vast majority of traditional OSAS adherents are simply innocently and naively led astray by that doctrine. The leadership that caused this to happen in the church are the one's that are going to pay the price for saturating the Protestant Church with that teaching. And the one's who have taken the OSAS heresy to it's new degree of falseness in the hyper-grace doctrines are going to pay an even stiffer penalty for what they have done to the church with their form of OSAS teaching.

 

[JLB]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but you have attributed OSAS as being a lie of Satan that has infiltrated the church. So to to you it must be heresy. That being the case are the OSAS camp going to hell?

Who does and does not inherit the kingdom, is up to the righteous Judge to decide on the day of Judgement.

Paul said it this way -

Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19

Paul warned us of this -

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

If a person who gives heed to a deceiving spirit, and begins to spread doctrines of demons, which causes people to depart from the faith, then as Peter said, it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, that to have known it...

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

If you or anyone else is interested in TRUTH then they should be interested in what Joseph Prince REALLY teaches about marriage and sexual immorality of ANY kind.

This is one of his regular sermons from 2013 I believe. You can start listening about this subject at about the 23 min. mark or at the 40 min. mark to hear him explicitly state what God's marriage is and that ANY sexual acts outside of God's marriage is sexual immorality, sin. He is a strong teacher against any type of sexual immorality at all.

I'm on dial up and takes hours to open videos, but have heard him teach these heresies on TV. I did post the website for all to look at and see what he teaches and where his teachings come from. All I can say is let the reader beware as hyper grace mixes truth with erroneous errors and if one is not grounded in the word for truth they could be deceived. Hyper grace is no different then JW, Mormons or any other cult that teaches a different doctrine or a different gospel.

 

[for_his_glory]

Wrg,
God will judge the intents of the heart, but we can judge a man/woman by what he speaks as we test the spirits that are speaking , 1John 4:1-6, and if what he/she speaks does not line up with what God has already said in scripture then that man/woman is not teaching truth, but contradicting (heresy) the doctrine of Christ as they are teaching the doctrine of man being another gospel, Galatians 1:8,9; 2Corinthians 11:1-4, Rev 22:18,19.

You have already stated that you believed some things hyper grace teachings say, but yet did not believe in other things they teach. This is called rightly dividing the word of God to separate truth from error as you have done and that is a well thing to do. There is no fence riding with Christ as we believe all He has already said, or we believe nothing of what He has already said as truth and error can not mix, but error loves to twist the word and take its meaning out of context, even wiping away truth with heresy type teachings.

Jesus did not make amends (atonement) for our sin as hyper grace teaches, but through the blood He shed for us became the fulfillment of the sacrificial law that by Gods grace all can be reconciled back to God through repentance and confession of our faith that is Christ Jesus. Hyper grace teaches all our sin, past, present and future is already covered by the blood of Christ and that we no longer have to repent of any sin we might commit. That would be like saying grace does give us a license to sin for after all we don't have to worry about what we did as it's already covered, forgiven and forgotten..........that's a heresy as in contradicting what Jesus already taught us about repentance and forgiveness of sin.
Hope this helps

 

[Deborah13]

What does he teach in 2016.
Jim Jones was a good teacher and loving Pastor... until he wasn't.
JLB

Did you listen to the video. He is so serious and adamant that marriage is between one man and one woman, one husband and one wife, and that Any sexual relationships outside of the description is sexual immorality. If he did not still believe this he would have retaught on this subject, but he hasn't.

No offence, but he reminds me of Prince in that picture.
JLB

Yeah that hairstyle is something.

I do not know anything about Joseph Prince, except that he is a prosperity gospel teacher.
I've only been addressing the doctrine of hyper-grace. There about four or five regular hyper-grace posters in this forum.

Actually I have seldom heard him teach on prosperity at all. He teaches grace, mercy, and rightness in Christ. His teachings on giving are based on NT giving by grace, not by the Law. If one is lead to 10% or any other it should always be by grace from the heart, not because they think they can buy blessings from God.

I'm on dial up and takes hours to open videos, but have heard him teach these heresies on TV.

You have heard him teach that homosexuality is acceptable to God? That ss marriage is acceptable to God?

 

[rthom7]

Greetings Free,

Maybe your right, translating back into Hebrew is not the thing to do... but consider my process first, which was not explained....

Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance "ametameletos"

The word under question is not the other words, but ametameletos....(a Greek word)

From Strongs, this word is a compound word...

and a presumed derivative of 3338;

So this yields See Greek 3338 (metamellomai).... this Greek word does have many verses of context, whereas the other compound word doesn't...

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent "metamellomai", Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

And from this Greek word in the NT, quoting the OT, I then get the Hebrew word from the OT.... and you have the rest of my procedure....

Now you question, why do this.... well for one thing the NT is a book following the OT, so the OT context is a Father of the Bible while the NT is the Son of Scriptures...so the Hebrew language came first in our Scriptures, and later the Jews spoke Greek, which according to Joesphus Jews never were allowed to speak Greek...so finding the meaning of the Greek word with a Hebrew flavour makes sense...rather than looking up the Greek meaning in a Greek cultural perspective.... Greek thinking and Hebrew thinking are very different...

It's a pity you think the evidence was weak...

(1) Hebrew word puns exist in the NT, not Greek word puns....that's reason enough
(2) Dozens of words in Greek are words spelled the same as Hebrew words - letter by letter...for example in 2Cor 11:33 Paul was led down the wall in a basket
The normal greek word for basket is spuris.... but the Greek word used is sargane from the Hebrew word sarag
(3) Poetry exists and only makes sense when translated back into Hebrew...in the NT Greek there is not poetry
(4) Some words in the Greek NT are quoting Hebrew, a primacy Greek would not do that if Greek was spoken, obviously Hebrew or Aramaic was spoken
(5) Typos exist in the Greek, dozens of them, but all corrected if translated back into the Hebrew...

I suggest downloading the pdf link (Google it) if you want detailed proof

Anyway JLB spoke well on this word, and I liked his comments....

I guess our journeys with the Lord can be different as long as we enjoy our walk In His hands. Thanks for the comments.
Shalom

 

[JLB]

Did you listen to the video. He is so serious and adamant that marriage is between one man and one woman, one husband and one wife, and that Any sexual relationships outside of the description is sexual immorality. If he did not still believe this he would have retaught on this subject, but he hasn't.

Here's what his website says:

We Believe

• In one God, who exists in three Persons—the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He is loving, holy and just.
• That the Bible is God’s Word. It is inspired and accurate. It is our perfect guide in all matters of life.
• That sin has separated us all from God, and that only through Jesus Christ can we be reconciled to God.
• That Jesus Christ is both God and Man. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He led a sinless life, took all our sins upon Himself, died and rose again. Today, He is seated at the right hand of the Father as our High Priest and Mediator.
• That salvation is the gift of God to man. This gift is effected by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and it results in works pleasing to God.
• That water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of God and a testimony of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
• That the Holy Spirit is our Comforter. He guides us in all areas of our lives. He also blesses us with spiritual gifts and empowers us to yield the fruit of the Spirit.
• That the Holy Communion is a celebration of Jesus’ death and our remembrance of Him.
• That God wants to transform, heal and provide for us, so that we can live blessed and victorious lives that will impact and help others.
• That we are called to preach the gospel to all nations.
• That our Lord Jesus Christ is coming back again just as He promised.

 

[for_his_glory]

Did you listen to the video. He is so serious and adamant that marriage is between one man and one woman, one husband and one wife, and that Any sexual relationships outside of the description is sexual immorality. If he did not still believe this he would have retaught on this subject, but he hasn't.

Yeah that hairstyle is something.

Actually I have seldom heard him teach on prosperity at all. He teaches grace, mercy, and rightness in Christ. His teachings on giving are based on NT giving by grace, not by the Law. If one is lead to 10% or any other it should always be by grace from the heart, not because they think they can buy blessings from God.

You have heard him teach that homosexuality is acceptable to God? That ss marriage is acceptable to God?

When we compromise the word of God in order to not offend anyone without sharing what Gods word says then we are no different than those we do not want to offend who walk in unrighteousness. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

This is what Joseph Price and many other Pastors do as they skirt around the issue of homosexuality as not to offend them that attend their church, but teach that Gods grace has already forgiven them as the blood of Christ has already washed away their sin and have no need of repentance.

Should a Pastor or anyone who holds the truth teach what Leviticus 18:22; 20:10-31 and Romans 1:18-32 or any of the scriptures that Jesus taught about repenting without hyper grace teachers calling us legalistic as the Mosaic laws are dead since we are under a new covenant of God.

 

[ezrider]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

They do not hold the truth in Righteousness, which is the Faith of Christ, they hold the truth in unrighteousness, meaning they only hold the truth according to the law, from which the wrath of God is revealed. But those who hold the truth in Righteousness know that we are not called to wrath, but unto salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We continue this writing by commending the Hyper-Grace Teacher for the way he has clearly communicated these specific truths, serving to change the lives of many.

But what does it matter if the one point they do teach--that you can depart the faith and still be saved--sends those who hear these truths to hell anyway?

Here is the point I want to make and it is based on your quote.

We all have differences of opinion with certain doctrines(which I opened a post on) that denominations within the global global church will preach. As you know that breaks my heart, because to me denominations can do exactly what the hyper-grace movement is doing. Truth mixed with error.

But it's this one particular point that a believer can become an ex-believer, denying the blood by which they were sanctified and they are still saved, that is the problem. Points of difference are okay, in fact they are necessary so we can know who has God's approval and who does not (1 Corinthians 11:19 NASB), but when one's point of difference so blatantly makes the difference between heaven and hell we have a situation that can not be ignored, overlooked, or compromised with, no matter how correct they may be on other things. I liken what's happening in the Protestant Church right now to what God warned Israel to be careful of:

"1If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NASB)

See, just because the gifted prophet was operating in his gift in one area, but then also leads the flock astray in another, God says do not follow him. And, he says this is a test to see if you really do love the Lord. So, just because hyper-grace is functioning is some useful aspect of God's revelation in one area, but then turns right around and tells believers they can stop following God, that hardly means we are to embrace them for what they have done right. Quite the opposite.

 

[for_his_glory]

They do not hold the truth in Righteousness, which is the Faith of Christ, they hold the truth in unrighteousness, meaning they only hold the truth according to the law, from which the wrath of God is revealed. But those who hold the truth in Righteousness know that we are not called to wrath, but unto salvation.

We are to hold the truth according to the moral laws that are written upon our hearts as what we practice in love by faith that is Christ Jesus is that we are to keep ourselves holy before the Lord.

There are laws (commandments) that were especially written just for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all of us to still follow as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices as the moral laws (commandments) keep us in line with the will of God that we present ourselves a vessel of honor that God delights in as we allow the light of Christ shine in us and through us as a testimony of Gods grace and mercy as it is not ourselves that do any good thing, but Gods Spirit working in us and through us as we surrender our will to that of Gods will to be done.

 

[ezrider]

We are to hold the truth according to the moral laws that are written upon our hearts as what we practice in love by faith

And who defines those moral laws that are written upon those hearts? Many might say that the moral law of not discriminating against one another for any reason has been written upon their hearts, and the results of this moral law that was written upon theirs heart has been the acceptance of same sex marriage.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So the whole episode of tongues is another's truth but I now reject that so to them I'm in error and not saved. I however would never say that thier error does not mean they are not saved or a brother.

Right. Neither would I. The issue itself is so ridiculous that it doesn't beg to be considered a basis upon which to hold a person who claims to be a believer at arms length. What would is if they stand behind their claim of doctrinal truth with a hateful, vengeful, proud attitude. Then I would hold that particular person in question as to whether they are saved or not.

Baptismal regeneration. I had a conversation with a person who beleived that if you were not baptised you were going to hell.

Pretty harmless doctrine, if you ask me.
Just let it go.

So I would like to ask if I beleive in a certain doctrine am I not your brother?

If you believe and practice particular doctrines, that is when I have to exercise my God given right and privilege to spiritual discernment and regard you as an unbeliever, or false teacher, etc. Your traditional OSAS belief doesn't do that (unless it leads you into a life of willful sin). If you believed in, or practiced hyper-grace doctrine that says you do not have to continue to trust Christ to the very end to be saved on the Day of Wrath I would have no choice but to not fellowship with you and regard you as an unbeliever. Here's some of my Biblical justification for making the choice between who I consider a brother/sister, and who I do not. This is especially applicable to this matter of 'you can stop holding fast the word of the gospel and you are still saved' doctrine (aka hyper-grace):

"9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God (hyper-grace doctrine says you do have God); whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son (hyper-grace doctrine says you have them already regardless). 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1: NIV)

See? Anyone who does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God. So when a person who teaches and/or practices hyper-grace doctrine comes along and says you can stop continuing in the word and you still have God, John says to have nothing to do with them to point of not even greeting them.

But don't worry, you are one of the more spiritually grounded people in this forum.

 

[Wrg1405]

Right. Neither would I. The issue itself is so ridiculous that it doesn't beg to be considered a basis upon which to hold a person who claims to be a believer at arms length. What would is if they stand behind their claim of doctrinal truth with a hateful, vengeful, proud attitude. Then I would hold that particular person in question as to whether they are saved or not.


Pretty harmless doctrine, if you ask me.
Just let it go.


If you believe and practice particular doctrines, that is when I have to exercise my God given right and privilege to spiritual discernment and regard you as an unbeliever, or false teacher, etc. Your traditional OSAS belief doesn't do that (unless it leads you into a life of willful sin). If you believed in, or practiced hyper-grace doctrine that says you do not have to continue to trust Christ to the very end to be saved on the Day of Wrath I would have no choice but to not fellowship with you and regard you as an unbeliever. Here's some of my Biblical justification for making the choice between who I consider a brother/sister, and who I do not. This is especially applicable to this matter of 'you can stop holding fast the word of the gospel and you are still saved' doctrine (aka hyper-grace):

"9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God (hyper-grace doctrine says you do have God); whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son (hyper-grace doctrine says you have them already regardless). 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1: NIV)

See? Anyone who does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God. So when a person who teaches and/or practices hyper-grace doctrine comes along and says you can stop continuing in the word and you still have God, John says to have nothing to do with them to point of not even greeting them.

But don't worry, you are one of the more spiritually grounded people in this forum.

Phew

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Phew