Bible Study what does it mean to be born again?

[electedbyHim]

So, you never get angry or have bad thoughts about others even though you do not speak it?

Jas 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.
Jas 3:3 Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well.
Jas 3:4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires.
Jas 3:5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
Jas 3:7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.
Jas 3:8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
Jas 3:10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

 

[leroy]

Is it possible for a Christian to sin per the Bible?

Have you not read?
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:26

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:8-10

So, you never get angry or have bad thoughts about others even though you do not speak it?

Having bad thoughts can plague the best of men. But what God told me is those thoughts are not mine. They come from an outside source and are suggested by a familiar spirit. Just as the serpent beguiled Eve by his subtlety they are suggested in first person and are so familiar that we are led to think they are our own. It is not sin to be tempted by these thoughts even if they stir up feelings, but if you ruminate, accept and identify with them, they infect your mind and heart. Sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire.
When you understand their origin you can reject them. Thoughts can come so quickly and they will stir up strong feelings, in such a case the struggle comes. Are we to fight the good fight of faith or the bad fight of sin? When you try to fight the devil and these thoughts it is like shadow boxing. He will have you running in circles and you will loose the fight. In fact the fight was lost when you accepted the thoughts as your own. The fight of faith is to simply realize the truth. These truths will MAKE you free. These are not my thoughts, for I am dead and I have the mind of Christ which is impregnable to these assaults. The Father will keep you and you will live for His glory.
No one can truly hurt us except we give them permission.

 

[electedbyHim]

Have you not read?
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:26

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:8-10

Having bad thoughts can plague the best of men. But what God told me is those thoughts are not mine. They come from an outside source and are suggested by a familiar spirit. Just as the serpent beguiled Eve by his subtlety they are suggested in first person and are so familiar that we are led to think they are our own. It is not sin to be tempted by these thoughts even if they stir up feelings, but if you ruminate, accept and identify with them, they infect your mind and heart. Sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire.
When you understand their origin you can reject them. Thoughts can come so quickly and they will stir up strong feelings, in such a case the struggle comes. Are we to fight the good fight of faith or the bad fight of sin? When you try to fight the devil and these thoughts it is like shadow boxing. He will have you running in circles and you will loose the fight. In fact the fight was lost when you accepted the thoughts as your own. The fight of faith is to simply realize the truth. These truths will MAKE you free. These are not my thoughts, for I am dead and I have the mind of Christ which is impregnable to these assaults. The Father will keep you and you will live for His glory.
No one can truly hurt us except we give them permission.

Have you not read?
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:26

Do you not understand?
Hebrews 10:26

we. The author is speaking rhetorically. In verse Heb_10:39, he excludes himself and genuine believers from this category.

sin willfully. The Greek term carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. The sin is rejecting Christ deliberately. These are not isolated acts. According to the Mosaic legislation, such acts of deliberate, premeditated sin required exclusion from the congregation of Israel (cf. Num_15:30-31) and from its worship (cf. Exo_21:14). Such sins also excluded the individual from sanctuary in the cities of refuge (cf. Deu_19:11-13).

knowledge. The Greek term denotes specific knowledge, not general spiritual knowledge (cf. Heb_6:4; cf. 1Ti_2:4). Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a disciple who had no lack of knowledge, but lacked faith and became the arch-apostate.

no longer. The apostate is beyond salvation because he has rejected the only sacrifice that can cleanse him from sin and bring him into God's presence. To turn away from that sacrifice leaves him with no saving alternative. This is parallel to Mat_12:31 (see note there).

But what God told me is those thoughts are not mine. They come from an outside source and are suggested by a familiar spirit.

Blame game.

Those sinful thoughts are from your heart.

Mar 7:20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.
Mar 7:21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.
Mar 7:23 “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

Even if satan puts those thoughts in your mind, they are still your sins.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

You come off as you are sinless, but refuse to answer directly if you are. You replies are telling.

Paul was not sinless or any of the others in the Bible.

I saw your post about Paul's struggle in Romans 7:14-24 and you are wrong like all the "sinless perfectionist".

A saved person cannot say....

Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, (The unsaved hate God and His laws)

Romans 7:24-25 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Paul also called Himself the chief of sinners.

James, talking to Christians, says NO ONE can tame the tongue.

James 3:8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

You would do well to have a right understanding of sin by studying Hamartiology.


Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked will stumble in calamity.

 

[leroy]

Well, this comes against Psalms 110:1; Mark 16:19; Romans 8:34, Hebrews 1:3 and so many more scriptures that state Jesus now sits at the right hand of God in heaven.

How so? How does this come against God seeing His Son in us. Did He not give His Son to us. He lives in us. 1 John 5:11,12
Jesus is the head of this human body of which we are the other parts. We are the human body of the Son and He is the life that animates us. He is our Spirit.
We are all sitting on that throne. Col. 1:13 Eph. 2:6 2 Tim 2:12

Apart from all of this stuff about who is right and who is wrong, does it not speak to your heart that God gave to us His Son, literally, actually, factually and forever. He gave Him up to a race that would for the most part would kill Him. Yet for the remnant who accepted this unfathomable Gift He is able to redeem a few to show His sacrificial nature of love. Having the Son/human sitting on the throne does not come close to express the magnanimity and self-sacrificing love of giving up His Son to save us by living in us, which should provoke awe and wonder that would cause every created being to bow in silence.
The story that we have been taught of Jesus life, away from heaven for 33 years ending in torture and death and going back home looking a lot different than he once was does not compare with the story that has been revealed to me.
Bearing the sins of the world by living in every human and bearing the sin of every human throughout their miserable life, from Eden until now, while doing all He could to turn some of us back to the Father. The sacrifice of the Father and the Son is beyond human comprehension. What about this view is so heretical that you find it unable to contemplate.

Some have asked where in the bible does it say that the Son lived in humanity before the time of Jesus.
He gave Him to the whole world, to every single person born of women. (according to the lexicon) John 3:16 He is all and in all COL. 3:11

 

[for_his_glory]

Having bad thoughts can plague the best of men.

Are you better than the best of man? Do you even know what a familiar spirit is and how could this even enter into the thoughts of those who are Spiritually born again indwelled with the Holy Spirit. A familiar spirit, being evil, is that which can take on the form of someone we know like that of Saul, who was not of God, as he called up that familiar spirit that took on the form of Samuel, 1Samuel 28.

 

[leroy]

Do you not understand?
Hebrews 10:26

we. The author is speaking rhetorically. In verse Heb_10:39, he excludes himself and genuine believers from this category.

I am not convinced how you see that he excludes himself and genuine believers. Who else would he be writing to? I see nothing in this explanation that indicate rhetoric nor exclusion. Clearly he writes, "If we" sin willfully. This is a warning not to treat lightly the Gift they have been given.

sin willfully. The Greek term carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. The sin is rejecting Christ deliberately. These are not isolated acts. According to the Mosaic legislation, such acts of deliberate, premeditated sin required exclusion from the congregation of Israel (cf. Num_15:30-31) and from its worship (cf. Exo_21:14). Such sins also excluded the individual from sanctuary in the cities of refuge (cf. Deu_19:11-13).

knowledge. The Greek term denotes specific knowledge, not general spiritual knowledge (cf. Heb_6:4; cf. 1Ti_2:4). Though the knowledge was not defective or incomplete, the application of the knowledge was certainly flawed. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a disciple who had no lack of knowledge, but lacked faith and became the arch-apostate.

no longer. The apostate is beyond salvation because he has rejected the only sacrifice that can cleanse him from sin and bring him into God's presence. To turn away from that sacrifice leaves him with no saving alternative. This is parallel to Mat_12:31 (see note there).



Blame game.

Those sinful thoughts are from your heart.

It surprises me that I share with you how I have found victory over temptation, (Thoughts and feelings) with the truth, so that you too may be helped, and somehow you let demons sweep it aside. Can you see they want to keep you from the truth that will make you free of their control. In your effort of trying to prove me wrong you throw away your help.

Mar 7:20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.

Precisely my point. When a person acquiesces and receives these lies from a demon those thoughts do become his own and he is defiled by them.

Mar 7:21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries,

After the Fall, the heart of man was filled with fear and desires of the flesh. The spirit nature was dead. The natural desires are not evil within themselves but they can and would be corrupted. Yet it was the devil who brought this all to pass and now he had the tools to eradicate the image of God from man. After his first success do you think Satan does not make use of the subtleties that he used on Eve?
He works constantly on all to bring about the worst behaviors by suggesting thoughts. He cannot force one to do evil so he works in the shadows. All evil has its origin with Satan for he is the father of it, and people become his children because they obey him.
He can lead some into the most vile and corrupt acts. Others he may not so readily dragged down because of social norms and a fear of exposure or because one has connected to the Christ within.

Mar 7:22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness.
Mar 7:23 “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

Even if satan puts those thoughts in your mind, they are still your sins.

Yup

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

You come off as you are sinless, but refuse to answer directly if you are. You replies are telling.

I too was resistant to these truths. I fought vigorously against it just as you have done. Then I felt a desire to read Romans. when I got to the end of chapter 8, I was convicted that what had been shared with me was true. It took a month of asking for the life of His Son without success to face the fact that it was out of my reach and I gave up. My final prayer to God was, "If you think you can do something with my heart help yourself. I'm a lost man." I expected to die in my sins but over the next 2 weeks I found myself changing quite apart from any effort on my own. Time in again I would realize that my behavior was not as it used to be. I did not understand what had happened to me I felt quite puzzled. I ask one of the friends who was trying to share these truths with me what was going on. He asked me if I had done anything outside the known will of God in those last two weeks; have you sinned? I was in absolute shock by the question for I could not think of anything I had done that I would call sin. I looked at him in unbelief and said, "No!!!???". It felt like all of the wind had gone out of me. He said, "Well, you've been born again." I was absolutely bewildered I did not know how I could be born again when I had totally given up on God. But in truth I had not given up on God I had given up on trying to save myself. Like a drowning man going down for the last time He was able to save me from myself.
Elected, I am making every effort to share what a great blessing I have received and how you and others may be helped. I want to shout it from the house top. Yet the demons are hard at work as they do not want to loose any of their prey. They have no power against the truth and it would have no difficulty entering the heart except that pride stands at the door.
When you write, "You come off as you are sinless, but refuse to answer directly if you are. You replies are telling. You read too much into it. You cannot know another man's heart.
I never would but if I were to say "I am sinless." what would you do? Of what help would that be? It would be just the answer the devil wants to hear to disregard the truth.

Paul was not sinless or any of the others in the Bible.

I saw your post about Paul's struggle in Romans 7:14-24 and you are wrong like all the "sinless perfectionist".

A saved person cannot say....

Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, (The unsaved hate God and His laws)

Romans 7:24-25 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Paul also called Himself the chief of sinners.

James, talking to Christians, says NO ONE can tame the tongue.

James 3:8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

You would do well to have a right understanding of sin by studying Hamartiology.


Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked will stumble in calamity.

 

[for_his_glory]

How so? How does this come against God seeing His Son in us

You said, "the only place the Father would ever see His Son again is when he looks in our eyes" and I showed you in scripture that Jesus now sits at the right hand of God. It had nothing to do with God seeing Christ in us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I never would but if I were to say "I am sinless." what would you do?

I would say...Congratulations on a real repentance from sin !
May God be praised !

 

[electedbyHim]

I am not convinced how you see that he excludes himself and genuine believers. Who else would he be writing to? I see nothing in this explanation that indicate rhetoric nor exclusion. Clearly he writes, "If we" sin willfully. This is a warning not to treat lightly the Gift they have been given.


It surprises me that I share with you how I have found victory over temptation, (Thoughts and feelings) with the truth, so that you too may be helped, and somehow you let demons sweep it aside. Can you see they want to keep you from the truth that will make you free of their control. In your effort of trying to prove me wrong you throw away your help.

Precisely my point. When a person acquiesces and receives these lies from a demon those thoughts do become his own and he is defiled by them.

After the Fall, the heart of man was filled with fear and desires of the flesh. The spirit nature was dead. The natural desires are not evil within themselves but they can and would be corrupted. Yet it was the devil who brought this all to pass and now he had the tools to eradicate the image of God from man. After his first success do you think Satan does not make use of the subtleties that he used on Eve?
He works constantly on all to bring about the worst behaviors by suggesting thoughts. He cannot force one to do evil so he works in the shadows. All evil has its origin with Satan for he is the father of it, and people become his children because they obey him.
He can lead some into the most vile and corrupt acts. Others he may not so readily dragged down because of social norms and a fear of exposure or because one has connected to the Christ within.



Yup

I too was resistant to these truths. I fought vigorously against it just as you have done. Then I felt a desire to read Romans. when I got to the end of chapter 8, I was convicted that what had been shared with me was true. It took a month of asking for the life of His Son without success to face the fact that it was out of my reach and I gave up. My final prayer to God was, "If you think you can do something with my heart help yourself. I'm a lost man." I expected to die in my sins but over the next 2 weeks I found myself changing quite apart from any effort on my own. Time in again I would realize that my behavior was not as it used to be. I did not understand what had happened to me I felt quite puzzled. I ask one of the friends who was trying to share these truths with me what was going on. He asked me if I had done anything outside the known will of God in those last two weeks; have you sinned? I was in absolute shock by the question for I could not think of anything I had done that I would call sin. I looked at him in unbelief and said, "No!!!???". It felt like all of the wind had gone out of me. He said, "Well, you've been born again." I was absolutely bewildered I did not know how I could be born again when I had totally given up on God. But in truth I had not given up on God I had given up on trying to save myself. Like a drowning man going down for the last time He was able to save me from myself.
Elected, I am making every effort to share what a great blessing I have received and how you and others may be helped. I want to shout it from the house top. Yet the demons are hard at work as they do not want to loose any of their prey. They have no power against the truth and it would have no difficulty entering the heart except that pride stands at the door.
When you write, "You come off as you are sinless, but refuse to answer directly if you are. You replies are telling. You read too much into it. You cannot know another man's heart.
I never would but if I were to say "I am sinless." what would you do? Of what help would that be? It would be just the answer the devil wants to hear to disregard the truth.

You are sharing things.

But you are also conveying confusion.

Either you are sinless or still struggle with sin.

Which is it?

 

[leroy]

Are you better than the best of man?

is that one sentence all you read?
Familiar spirit, demon, satan , all the same thing

Do you even know what a familiar spirit is and how could this even enter into the thoughts of those who are Spiritually born again indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

The devil ( in a snake) suggested thoughts to Eve.
The devil in the form of an angel of light suggested thoughts to Jesus

A familiar spirit, being evil, is that which can take on the form of someone we know like that of Saul, who was not of God, as he called up that familiar spirit that took on the form of Samuel, 1Samuel 28.

So?

 

[leroy]

You are sharing things.

But you are also conveying confusion.

If you are confused by what I write it would be best for you to avoid confusion

Either you are sinless or still struggle with sin.

Sinless is not even used in the bible

Which is it?

 

[leroy]

You said, "the only place the Father would ever see His Son again is when he looks in our eyes" and I showed you in scripture that Jesus now sits at the right hand of God. It had nothing to do with God seeing Christ in us.

Jesus is one of us and the Father sees His Son in him he is the head of the human body of Christ we are the other parts. He is all and in all.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Sinless is not even used in the bible

It is written...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Perfect obedience to God IS in the bible.

 

[leroy]

It is written...“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Perfect obedience to God IS in the bible.

Very true

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus is one of us and the Father sees His Son in him he is the head of the human body of Christ we are the other parts. He is all and in all.

Since all you want to do is skirt around questions asked of you I am done with our conversation. You have a blessed day.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

I don't know any one who teaches the doctrine of sinless perfection. I think it was derived out of an ignorance of the power of the new birth and used as a disqualifying epithet to relieve the carnal Christian of his inability to live as a true believer. This a label that has been thrown at me and others as a misdirect.
There are those who know they are corrupt to the bone but as a born again Christian believe God that their old nature of sin has been crucified and buried and therefore walks in newness of life. His life is one of continual obedience to all the Father's directions. One who is born again never violates his conscience, for that would render him dead. Therefore his fallen nature is ineffective. Sin and the Adamic nature have no dominion over him, for he is a new creature and a partaker of the divine nature by which he has escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. This cannot be faked or worked up in the flesh. One cannot get to heaven by white knuckling it. When the weakest believer places the full weight of his faith upon his merciful redeemer, he will overcome and it will be as though it was a natural impulse. The devil is no match for a soul like this.
You wrote "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness"
This is not of his self, but it is the righteousness and holiness of the Son with whom he is one.
Eph 4:22 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
"renewed in the spirit of you mind" the mind of Christ which every true believer has.
In Romans 6:6 Paul writes "...the old man and the body of sin were destroyed." (Paraphrased). He is admonishing the believers to walk by faith. That is to say your Father believes you are dead and so should you. It is already true and you should 'put it on'. According to your faith it will be unto you.

You wrote, "So, sinless perfection exists only in the new creature created when Christ comes to live in a persons heart, not in the body in which he currently lives."
I don't understand how you can have a heart outside of the body in which you live.
In Hebrews 11:40 we read, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
This word 'perfect' in the lexicon equates it with 'complete' or to "add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full"
We have come to the final days and the Father is finishing the work in us. This 'better thing' will complete the believers in preparation to leave the planet, and demonstrate that if the patriarchs who came before us had lived in our day they too would have come to this completion. In that God is completing that work in us He covers all those who have gone before with the same completion. They are 'made perfect'
Anyone who is hoping or claiming perfection is not well in their mind. Aside from the fact that one would have to be looking at their self to see if they were perfect or not. The true believer keeps his eyes on the Father and it is the Father's prerogative to declare something perfect.

I will assume you do believe in the doctrine of Sinless Perfection, though you deny it, because your explanation cuts off any other conclusion.

 

[leroy]

I will assume you do believe in the doctrine of Sinless Perfection, though you deny it, because your explanation cuts off any other conclusion.

Always doing those things that please Father does not make you 'sinless' it just means you are being obedient by His grace and power. Perfect or 'Perfection' in scripture, is most often used to mean complete with nothing lacking. When we come to the place of recognizing our utter lack of anything good, the Lover of our soul looks at us and says, "Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee."
I too believed as you do but there is no doctrine of 'sinless perfection' expressed in scripture. I think it is more often used as a safety net against the teaching of having the life of continual obedience in God's Son. It is understandable for those who have not been born again, and as a result believe that occasional disobedience is a normal and an unavoidable consequence in the life as a christian. Therefore any teaching that reveals what the Good News says about our Redeemer's power to give us NewLifeinChrist and save us from disobedience has to be the heretical teaching of 'sinless perfection', otherwise their experience is not sufficient to grant them entrance into the Kingdom and they cannot accept that. So there is great resistance to this truth. Ask me how I know.
But what does the bible say?
God has promised to keep you from falling and present you faultless Jude 24 .
Also 1 John 3 "... every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
... he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Friend, Are you interested in a new life in Christ? Then I would encourage you to let your faith step into your death, burial and resurrection life. He will keep you for He has promised. This I can testify to that.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Always doing those things that please Father does not make you 'sinless' it just means you are being obedient by His grace and power.

Is that not tantamount to sinlessness ?
You seem to be splitting hairs to avoid admitting obedient behavior.

Perfect or 'Perfection' in scripture, is most often used to mean complete with nothing lacking. When we come to the place of recognizing our utter lack of anything good, the Lover of our soul looks at us and says, "Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee."
I too believed as you do but there is no doctrine of 'sinless perfection' expressed in scripture. I think it is more often used as a safety net against the teaching of having the life of continual obedience in God's Son. It is understandable for those who have not been born again, and as a result believe that occasional disobedience is a normal and an unavoidable consequence in the life as a christian. Therefore any teaching that reveals what the Good News says about our Redeemer's power to give us NewLifeinChrist and save us from disobedience has to be the heretical teaching of 'sinless perfection', otherwise their experience is not sufficient to grant them entrance into the Kingdom and they cannot accept that. So there is great resistance to this truth. Ask me how I know.
But what does the bible say?
God has promised to keep you from falling and present you faultless Jude 24 .
Also 1 John 3 "... every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
... he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Friend, Are you interested in a new life in Christ? Then I would encourage you to let your faith step into your death, burial and resurrection life. He will keep you for He has promised. This I can testify to that.

 

[leroy]

Is that not tantamount to sinlessness ?
You seem to be splitting hairs to avoid admitting obedient behavior.

The term "sinlessness" generally means without sin or free from sin. It describes a state of moral purity or innocence, someone or something that is not guilty of any wrongdoing or moral fault.
Even though God declares that our old man was crucified and the body of sin was destroyed, we dare not forget the pit from which we were dug.
To claim sinlessness you would have to be looking at self. It is arrogant and will turn honest souls away from the message of the Father's Gift to us. You could look at a new born and assume sinlessness yet even they can have a tantrum.
To make such a claim is like claiming humility. The moment you think you have it, you've lost it. Even Jesus said why do you call me good? there is none good except God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The term "sinlessness" generally means without sin or free from sin. It describes a state of moral purity or innocence, someone or something that is not guilty of any wrongdoing or moral fault.

That is correct.
Pure as "born of God" can be.

Even though God declares that our old man was crucified and the body of sin was destroyed, we dare not forget the pit from which we were dug.

I do not apply a past tense condition to a present state of being.
Why do you ?
God freed us from that pit, so be free !

To claim sinlessness you would have to be looking at self.

Of course, and if I am free of the old man and its nature, I will say so.

It is arrogant and will turn honest souls away from the message of the Father's Gift to us. You could look at a new born and assume sinlessness yet even they can have a tantrum.

The only ones turned from obedience to God are the lovers of sin.

To make such a claim is like claiming humility.

If the humble are asked if they are humble, should they lie about it ?

The moment you think you have it, you've lost it. Even Jesus said why do you call me good? there is none good except God.

Facts are facts.
I glorify God, and the name of Jesus Christ, every time I acknowledge what the death and resurrection of Christ has accomplished.
You seem to be either still a servant of sin, or the devil has tricked you into feeling guilt for obeying Christ.
Which is it ?