What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

[BornAgain]

So you reject those verse Paul wrote? How do you reconcile the verses that are in just about every bible ever written? Can you take a look at some of the verses mentioned already and give your take on them?

I do not reject anything in the Bible or what scripture says. In reading this thread and the context which predestination is used I reject. It is being referred to as chosen or the elect, that "certain one's" were chose to be saved. God does not choose "some of us." That is debated in other threads as well. He wants all of us to be saved.

The doctrine of predestination cannot be completely understood, for it is an act that resides in the mind of an infinite being, and we, as finite humans, cannot understand this. Calvanists agree that only some are chosen for salvation, and that those who are elect will come to faith and believe until the end. The question is this: On what basis did God predestine people? Did God predestine some because He knew they would believe of their own free will, or did He predestine without regard to human choices? Was God's choice based on man's choice, or is man's choice itself a result of God's choice? According to John Calvin:

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, Sec. 5.
​

Romans 8:29-30

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The promise was not fulfilled while they were still living under the old law. And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the sinners that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance Heb 9:15. The transgressions of the first covenant were not removed till Christ died. God ordained that these ancient worthies should be conformed to the image or likeness of his Son, that he might be the first born from the grave among many brethren. He came forth from the grave. "And the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many." Matt 27:52, 53.


30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. These ancient worthies whom he had thus ordained to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ he called from their tombs, justified them, and glorified them with Jesus at the throne of God. This is given in explanation of how all things work together for good to them that love God, and is an assurance that those who are faithful children of God shall share his immortal glories in the world to come.

 

[Eventide]

Evidently there are some here who do not understand the very foundational principles of the gospel of God concerning His Son.. how that all men are condemned in the first Adam (that's all of us) and every one justified freely in the Last Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Danus]

IT's obvious to me Danus that you can't answer a simple question.. and I certainly hope it's painfully obvious to anyone else following this thread.

Once you understand that ALL of us (you and me included) in the first Adam are condemned, you'll understand predestination in a whole new light..

Gosh tide, I said I was condemned in the first Adam,, and that I deserve death, and I am a sinner, but that I am saved. That I was given grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I further said that this was planed by God that I should be saved. It is my destiny "pre-planned" that I should be given grace. Destined for salvation. I can't answer why God chose me, only that he did. He chose a lot of people.

That is what is meant by "predestination and that is what Paul is talking about.

 

[Eventide]

Gosh tide, I said I was condemned in the first Adam,, and that I deserve death, and I am a sinner, but that I am saved. That I was given grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I further said that this was planed by God that I should be saved. It is my destiny "pre-planned" that I should be given grace. Destined for salvation. I can't answer why God chose me, only that he did. He chose a lot of people.

That is what is meant by "predestination and that is what Paul is talking about.

Sorry, must have missed that..

So then it should be obvious.. our life IN CHRIST was predestined.. not in the first Adam.. and that's what predestination is about.. LIFE IN CHRIST.. as He alone is the way, the truth, and the LIFE.

 

[Eventide]

So once again.. predestination is centered perfectly on our Lord Jesus Christ.. and not upon a single person in the first Adam.

 

[Danus]

I do not reject anything in the Bible or what scripture says. In reading this thread and the context which predestination is used I reject. It is being referred to as chosen or the elect, that "certain one's" were chose to be saved. God does not choose "some of us." That is debated in other threads as well. He wants all of us to be saved.

The doctrine of predestination cannot be completely understood, for it is an act that resides in the mind of an infinite being, and we, as finite humans, cannot understand this. Calvanists agree that only some are chosen for salvation, and that those who are elect will come to faith and believe until the end. The question is this: On what basis did God predestine people? Did God predestine some because He knew they would believe of their own free will, or did He predestine without regard to human choices? Was God's choice based on man's choice, or is man's choice itself a result of God's choice? According to John Calvin:

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, Sec. 5.
​

Romans 8:29-30

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The promise was not fulfilled while they were still living under the old law. And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the sinners that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance Heb 9:15. The transgressions of the first covenant were not removed till Christ died. God ordained that these ancient worthies should be conformed to the image or likeness of his Son, that he might be the first born from the grave among many brethren. He came forth from the grave. "And the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many." Matt 27:52, 53.


30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. These ancient worthies whom he had thus ordained to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ he called from their tombs, justified them, and glorified them with Jesus at the throne of God. This is given in explanation of how all things work together for good to them that love God, and is an assurance that those who are faithful children of God shall share his immortal glories in the world to come.

You say you don't or can't understand it yet you describe it. I don't know what it is you don't understand about predestination. You may not like the doctrine, but you seem to understand it quite well.

 

[Eventide]

This REMAINS the case even AFTER we are saved.. there is absolutely no justification of life in our old man, and completely perfect justification of life in the second man.. the LAST Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Danus]

Sorry, must have missed that..

So then it should be obvious.. our life IN CHRIST was predestined.. not in the first Adam.. and that's what predestination is about.. LIFE IN CHRIST.. as He alone is the way, the truth, and the LIFE.

I've looked all though this and I can't find any thing to complain about, or speak against.

 

[Danus]

This REMAINS the case even AFTER we are saved.. there is absolutely no justification of life in our old man, and completely perfect justification of life in the second man.. the LAST Adam, our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have said the same If I'd thought of it.

 

[Eventide]

I'm not sure what your OP was speaking of when it talked about people thinking it's not fair.. IMO it's perfectly just and fair... beyond what fair could possibly mean in that context..

Probably because of all the other Calvinistic dogma which teaches that God chose ME and that it's limited to the elect.. ya know.. stuff like that..

 

[Eventide]

Specifically this..

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others?

 

[Danus]

I'm not sure what your OP was speaking of when it talked about people thinking it's not fair.. IMO it's perfectly just and fair... beyond what fair could possibly mean in that context..

Probably because of all the other Calvinistic dogma which teaches that God chose ME and that it's limited to the elect.. ya know.. stuff like that..

I prefer the word Just, as in justice, to the word fair, but many have rejected the doctrine of grace as it has been presented to say that it is unfair. I think them saying each man must accept and decide is more fair. That seems better.

Fairness seems to be a man-made construct. I understand it. We want to be fair, play fair, all that.

Calvin is "in your face" type stuff. It's offensive, to some. It was also to me at one point. he wrote what he wrote to be that way I think. He wanted to challenge people. really make them think about the gospel in it's rawest way possible.

But then, the cross is also offensive to many. That God would do that and ask that we accept it.

 

[Mitspa]

It always made me wonder why that it seems to bother other "Christians" that Calvinist think they have been "chosen" by God? If one is truly one of "Gods Elect"
it will not bother you what others think of themselves, but one will rejoice in who they are in Christ! I think it must come from a sense of "insecurity", probably from the attempt many have to justify themselves by the flesh? I hope all the Calvinist make it to heaven with me!

 

[watchman333]

God KNEW us in the age before this flesh age. He CHOSE us because we stood with Him at the FOUNDATION, the Tohu Va Bohu in the Hebrew manuscripts, the Katabole in the Greek, Satan's overthrow in the age before this flesh age. Satan's rebellion caused this flesh age to happen and as it is written, many of His elect will be facing off with the adversary again. They were PREDESTINATED to, and already JUSTIFIED by GOD because of this.

 

[Mitspa]

God KNEW us in the age before this flesh age. He CHOSE us because we stood with Him at the FOUNDATION, the Tohu Va Bohu in the Hebrew manuscripts, the Katabole in the Greek, Satan's overthrow in the age before this flesh age. Satan's rebellion caused this flesh age to happen and as it is written, many of His elect will be facing off with the adversary again. They were PREDESTINATED to, and already JUSTIFIED by GOD because of this.

Your view is interesting! would like to hear more?

 

[BornAgain]

You say you don't or can't understand it yet you describe it. I don't know what it is you don't understand about predestination. You may not like the doctrine, but you seem to understand it quite well.

I will take that as a compliment . I did not say I do not understand predestination but had to research it for myself. I had never heard of it until I joined this forum and the majority get it mixed up.

I was thinking of the people who read these threads and how it must feel to walk around wondering if they are elected or if they are damned. The Bible I study (KJV) does not teach that...we all have the opportunity to go to heaven, it is a matter the Saving Steps of Faith which are:

Hearing the gospel: John 20:30, 31.
Believing the gospel: Rom 1:16 Acts 18:8 Heb 11:6.
Repenting: Luke 13:3:, 24:47, Acts 3:19, 17-30.
Confess Faith in Christ: Romans 10:9, 10 Acts 8:37
Be baptized: Mat 28:19, Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38, 10:47, 48, 22:16, Romans 6:1-6, Galatians 3:27 Colossions 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21.
Be faithful unto and until death: Matthew 25:21 Romans 25:21,34, 2 Peter 1:1-11, Revelations 2:10, 1 John 1:6-9.

 

[Danus]

It always made me wonder why that it seems to bother other "Christians" that Calvinist think they have been "chosen" by God? If one is truly one of "Gods Elect"
it will not bother you what others think of themselves, but one will rejoice in who they are in Christ! I think it must come from a since of "insecurity", probably from the attempt many have to justify themselves by the flesh? I hope all the Calvinist make it to heaven with me!

Well "Calvinist" is one of those pejorative terms.

There are some who admire Calvin but don't quite go along with all of his points, and then others who do, but express misunderstandings, and others who just reject it maybe without fully knowing or are so upset with it to fully investigate what John Calvin actually wrote. I mean we have enough going on just studying the bible then to have to ponder the biblical thoughts of what may very well be a mad genius (my term)

Calvin is not a denomination. It's important to say this. I have meet many people who belong to various denominations or Christian groups who express what Calvin expressed but who say they hate Calvin. Calvin, Calvin Calvin ....I wish we could get away from that name and only have it on our underwear, but the man did write some very heavy stuff and it's difficult not to bring him up when discussing the gospel.

 

[watchman333]

Your view is interesting! would like to hear more?

Hi Mitspa, thank you for your kind words. If you truly want to learn more, go to my website (same as my name) and your eyes will be opened to Holy Spirit truth.

 

[Danus]

I will take that as a compliment . I did not say I do not understand predestination but had to research it for myself. I had never heard of it until I joined this forum and the majority get it mixed up.

I was thinking of the people who read these threads and how it must feel to walk around wondering if they are elected or if they are damned. The Bible I study (KJV) does not teach that...we all have the opportunity to go to heaven, it is a matter the Saving Steps of Faith which are:

Hearing the gospel: John 20:30, 31.
Believing the gospel: Rom 1:16 Acts 18:8 Heb 11:6.
Repenting: Luke 13:3:, 24:47, Acts 3:19, 17-30.
Confess Faith in Christ: Romans 10:9, 10 Acts 8:37
Be baptized: Mat 28:19, Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38, 10:47, 48, 22:16, Romans 6:1-6, Galatians 3:27 Colossions 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21.
Be faithful unto and until death: Matthew 25:21 Romans 25:21,34, 2 Peter 1:1-11, Revelations 2:10, 1 John 1:6-9.

Yes, we do. Anyone can be saved, but not everyone is.... That does not leave a good taste in anyone's heart. But it is meant to be a pause to reflect on God's word and promises. All who seek will find.

these Doctrines of Predestination and election and such, need to be taken together to have a well rounded feel and understanding of what they are. One is no good without the other, and so we like to say that theology is a "systematic" study. You can't have the new testament without the old. In the same way these aspects of salvation are to be understood one to another. A "golden chain" if you will, where each link holds the other in succession.

We see this same type of systematic understanding in Paul's writings. Let's look at Romans 8: 28-30 just as reference of this for a bit of systematic thoughts.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

look especially at verse 30. He starts with "predestined" then explains the predestined are "called" then justified, then glorified. This may not be the best example but it's Paul explaining how one thing is dependent on another.

I like to point this out to people who are experiencing doubt. I think Jesus did to. He often said; "Where is your faith?"! Those who love God and want a relationship with him will have that. Otherwise they would not. You can't have one things without the other. A love and longing for God and not have salvation, but evil will tell us differently, Amen? It lies to us and wants us to believe we are missing something in God's system and plan for us.

 

[Mitspa]

Hi Mitspa, thank you for your kind words. If you truly want to learn more, go to my website (same as my name) and your eyes will be opened to Holy Spirit truth.

Thank you! i will check it out!



Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

We will see?