What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

[BornAgain]

I'll catch you peeps tomorrow. Right now I am "predestined" to watch a movie with my family. I'd stay and chat, but it was planed before hand. I must go and fulfill my destiny.

Hope it's a good movie and thanks for a controversial topic!

 

[rrowell]

So you think Romans 8:29 is only speaking of Jesus and not of the saved?

No, Jesus and His Church, the Church is the Body, he is the Head.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him

He is now speaking of those who "obey" him, because if you don't "obey him", you cannot "love him", he is contrasting those who "obey him" with those who "have been called" (Something Calvin seems to overlook)

, who have been called according to his purpose.

and who has been called? All men:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

Those he foreknew were those that "conformed" to the body of the Church (note the word "conformed"? that means those that "comply", NOT those who were "MADE THAT WAY", those who "obey" and only those who "obey" by design (from the beginning was the plan) would be "conformed to" the image of his Son

, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

it was not an after though, from the beginning he would be our High Priest:

Hebrews 8:1 (KJV)
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Again who did he call? Everyone, but they must "obey"="conform" to be "justified" to be "glorified".

 

[Shannon H]

I think of it in this way; I was not predestined to believe, but it was foreknown by God that I would believe when called, therefore predestined to be called, and predestined to be placed "in Christ" at the moment I did believe.

 

[BornAgain]

I think of it in this way; I was not predestined to believe, but it was foreknown by God that I would believe when called, therefore predestined to be called, and predestined to be placed "in Christ" at the moment I did believe.

I think this is a very simplistic and effective way, and a good summation of what we were all trying to say!

 

[Mitspa]

I think of it in this way; I was not predestined to believe, but it was foreknown by God that I would believe when called, therefore predestined to be called, and predestined to be placed "in Christ" at the moment I did believe.

Good to hear an honest voice! Many seem only interested in proving others wrong, instead of looking together into truth and helping each other to grow in knowledge!
I do believe that as we grow in Christ some of these issues of eternal things become more clear. As we grow in knowledge and grace we Know more of His "Eternal Nature", we begin to understand His Eternal purpose and work.


1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

This is shown throughout NT scripture.


Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[reba]

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Romans 8:30 (KJV)
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


"Moreover whom he did predestinate" Jesus, "them he also called" All of man, "and whom he justified" those who obey, "them he also glorified" they will enter his rest.

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Any one who has read even one post of mine knows i butcher the english langauge..And even i can see Jesus is not "them"

 

[Eventide]

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Any one who has read even one post of mine knows i butcher the english langauge..And even i can see Jesus is not "them"

I agree.. It's CHRIST in them.. Paul just spent a lot of time talking about the SPIRIT of Christ in the believer...

And look at the last portion under discussion here..

Those He justified, He also GLORIFIED !

What is our hope of GLORY.. ?

Is it Christ in me, or Christ and me..?

Do born again Christians actually believe that God is glorifying our old nature.. Our old man according to the flesh..?

 

[Eventide]

If the answer to that question is NO, then why do so many place predestination or election unto salvation in the old man, and not the new ?

 

[Mitspa]

If the answer to that question is NO, then why do so many place predestination or election unto salvation in the old man, and not the new ?

Your last several post have made no sense? Maybe i have missed a discussion you and others have been having? But you do understand that the "old man" is the "flesh" The "new man" is the "spirit"? they abide together in the same body?
That the whole discussion is how to understand the term "predestination"? Now how you think what you are saying is making the "term" not a promise to all "believers" makes no biblical sense to me:eeeekkk
so please explain

 

[Eventide]

Your last several post have made no sense? Maybe i have missed a discussion you and others have been having? But you do understand that the "old man" is the "flesh" The "new man" is the "spirit"? they abide together in the same body?

EXACTLY!

That the whole discussion is how to understand the term "predestination"? Now how you think what you are saying is making the "term" not a promise to all "believers" makes no biblical sense to me:eeeekkk
so please explain

Of course it is to all BELIEVERS...

And again, what is our hope of GLORY?

The old man, or the new man, CHRIST in me?

Isn't it obvious ?

Our life in Christ is predestined to glory.. And we do not yet know what we shall be, but we shall be like Him.. For in the blink of an eye, He will change our vile body to be fashioned like unto HIS glorified resurrected body.

 

[Mitspa]

EXACTLY!



Of course it is to all BELIEVERS...

And again, what is our hope of GLORY?

The old man, or the new man, CHRIST in me?

Isn't it obvious ?

Our life in Christ is predestined to glory.. And we do not yet know what we shall be, but we shall be like Him.. For in the blink of an eye, He will change our vile body to be fashioned like unto HIS glorified resurrected body.

So you do not see these scriptures of "being conformed to His Image" as something that we may attain to in our life in this world?



2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

I must be misunderstanding what you are trying to say

 

[Eventide]

So you do not see these scriptures of "being conformed to His Image" as something that we may attain to in our life in this world?

Certainly not my old man who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts... If that's what you mean.. Our old man is not being reformed or conformed to the image of Christ.. In fact, he is dead, crucified with Christ.

2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

I must be misunderstanding what you are trying to say

Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're saying.. Are you saying that our old man is being conformed to th image of Christ ?

 

[Eventide]

The apostle Paul tells us to be transformed by the renewing of our MIND.. And we're to have the MIND of Christ... Which I believe is likened to the spirit in man.. Not the flesh which is contrary to the Spirit (or mind) of Christ which is in us.

Paul sums this up well in Romans 7...

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Mitspa]

Certainly not my old man who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts... If that's what you mean.. Our old man is not being reformed or conformed to the image of Christ.. In fact, he is dead, crucified with Christ.



Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're saying.. Are you saying that our old man is being conformed to th image of Christ ?

Of course the "flesh" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! But the "Spirit Man" the "Inner man" , The New Creation born from the Word of God, is to have dominion and overcome the "flesh". This is growth in Christ, conforming to "His Image"


Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

This is how every "believer" will be rewarded, this is the goal and purpose of our faith!

Maybe we are speaking past each other? "Terms" can mean different things to different people, i guess?

 

[Eventide]

Christ in you.. our hope of GLORY...

Of course the "flesh" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! But the "Spirit Man" the "Inner man" , The New Creation born from the Word of God, is to have dominion and overcome the "flesh". This is growth in Christ, conforming to "His Image"

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

This is how every "believer" will be rewarded, this is the goal and purpose of our faith!

Maybe we are speaking past each other? "Terms" can mean different things to different people, i guess?

Predestination is a simple and absolutely glorious biblical fact when it is completely centered upon the person of our Lord Jesus Christ... and NOT upon certain individuals in the 1st Adam..

All in the first Adam are condemned.. not a single man in the 1st Adam was predestined to GLORY.... we're CONDEMNED in Adam.. remember ?

Each and every believer in Christ who is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God... IS PREDESTINED to GLORY..

Because that is our HOPE of GLORY.. Christ in you.. not Christ AND you..

There's an enormous difference there to say the least..

That is the Spirit in the inner man.. the hidden man of the heart.. CHRIST in you..

He alone is our HOPE of GLORY.

DO you think that your hope of glory is Christ AND you ?

IF SO, then how does that work when the FLESH is contrary to the SPIRIT of CHRIST in us..?

 

[Eventide]

Predestination to GLORY has absolutely nothing to do with Adam according to the FLESH..

IT has EVERYTHING to do with the Last Adam.. the SPIRIT of Christ in you..

And yet that's what MOST conversations concerning predestination are centered upon.. condemned men in the first Adam.. and Christ is RARELY, if ever mentioned..

hmmmm

 

[Eventide]

CONDEMNATION and JUSTIFICATION of LIFE..

Perhaps many in Christ do not yet fully understand the enormity of the gospel of God concerning His Son..

When ADAM was disobedient in the garden (remember, the man was not deceived).. the penalty of that was DEATH... and DEATH has CLEARLY passed upon all men.. in the first Adam...

And every last one of us in our fallen Adamic nature.. can freely have justification of life in God's beloved Son.. it's really that simple..

Because if any man shall come after Him.. they must DENY THEMSELVES, take up THEIR CROSS and follow HIM.. for if we shall seek to save OUR LIFE we shall lose it, and if we shall lose it for CHRIST and the gospel, we shall save it.

Foundational principles of the Gospel of God's GLORIOUS SON..

imo anyway

It's the ultimate CROSSroad of LIFE..

The FIRST ADAM...

or...

The LAST ADAM

Which WAY do you think is best ?

 

[Mitspa]

Re: Christ in you.. our hope of GLORY...

Predestination is a simple and absolutely glorious biblical fact when it is completely centered upon the person of our Lord Jesus Christ... and NOT upon certain individuals in the 1st Adam..

All in the first Adam are condemned.. not a single man in the 1st Adam was predestined to GLORY.... we're CONDEMNED in Adam.. remember ?

Each and every believer in Christ who is sealed with the Holy Spirit of God... IS PREDESTINED to GLORY..

Because that is our HOPE of GLORY.. Christ in you.. not Christ AND you..

There's an enormous difference there to say the least..

That is the Spirit in the inner man.. the hidden man of the heart.. CHRIST in you..

He alone is our HOPE of GLORY.

DO you think that your hope of glory is Christ AND you ?

IF SO, then how does that work when the FLESH is contrary to the SPIRIT of CHRIST in us..?

If i could cause my "spirit man" to jump out of this "earthen vessel" and still fulfill the purpose for which i was called, I WOULD! but please try to understand
that God gets the Glory when The "inner man" overcomes and works past the "flesh"

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If you know God? you know He delights in making the weak, strong! the darkness turn to light!

So again your point makes no biblical sense to me?

 

[savedbygrace57]

A True Preached also preaches that God has predetermined who goes to hell, for as Heaven was prepared specifically for some Matt 25:34, so likewise hell was prepared specifically for some. Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

What was prepared for the devil, was also prepared for his children ! For they are all of one seed Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee[The Devil] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And as Christ's seed was predetinated to Glory, the devils seed was predestinated to everlasting fire !

 

[Mitspa]

A True Preached also preaches that God has predetermined who goes to hell, for as Heaven was prepared specifically for some Matt 25:34, so likewise hell was prepared specifically for some. Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

What was prepared for the devil, was also prepared for his children ! For they are all of one seed Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee[The Devil] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And as Christ's seed was predetinated to Glory, the devils seed was predestinated to everlasting fire !

I am not sure what your speaking to? "Predestination" as i have laid out in previous post, simply means the "way" or "path" has been prepared for those who "believe".
Hell or punishment is the result of those who reject what has been made available!


Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.