What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

[Mitspa]

Hi Mitspa, thank you for your kind words. If you truly want to learn more, go to my website (same as my name) and your eyes will be opened to Holy Spirit truth.

Well i did not get very far on your website to see you have a very limited understanding of the "True Sabbath". "The Rest of God" (Heb 4) Also i know personally NT prophets as is described in (Eph) and in other NT scripture. I do not want to interrupt this thread, but maybe you could start one of your own? Then we might discuss some of these issues?

 

[BornAgain]

Yes, we do. Anyone can be saved, but not everyone is.... That does not leave a good taste in anyone's heart. But it is meant to be a pause to reflect on God's word and promises. All who seek will find.

these Doctrines of Predestination and election and such, need to be taken together to have a well rounded feel and understanding of what they are. One is no good without the other, and so we like to say that theology is a "systematic" study. You can't have the new testament without the old. In the same way these aspects of salvation are to be understood one to another. A "golden chain" if you will, where each link holds the other in succession.

We see this same type of systematic understanding in Paul's writings. Let's look at Romans 8: 28-30 just as reference of this for a bit of systematic thoughts.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

look especially at verse 30. He starts with "predestined" then explains the predestined are "called" then justified, then glorified. This may not be the best example but it's Paul explaining how one thing is dependent on another.

I agree with you there....All scripture is based on the inspiration of God...the NT came to fulfill the OT.

In the KJV Romans 8 verse 30 states they were foreordained.

30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: —ordained to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. See how using a different bible can appear to change an entire meaning? It does not change the meaning, we can interpret it differently.

 

[Danus]

I agree with you there....All scripture is based on the inspiration of God...the NT came to fulfill the OT.

In the KJV Romans 8 verse 30 states they were foreordained.

30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: —ordained to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. See how using a different bible can appear to change an entire meaning? It does not change the meaning, we can interpret it differently.

Possibly. depends on ones vocabulary.
Foreordained
(of God or fate) Appoint or decree (something) beforehand: "progress is not foreordained"

Predestined:

1. (of God) Destine (someone) for a particular fate or purpose.
2. Determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will or fate.

 

[WIP]

If you'll permit me to inject my thoughts here...

Like BornAgain, I never really heard of "predestination" before joining this site. At times I wish I was still ignorant of the term because as I read through these discussion all I get is confused as if my brain is being twisted in a knot. Although, I must admit that I do enjoy reading the discussion even if I struggle to keep up. For me the topic of predestination is like the topic of trinity. I don't claim to understand it but if it is something that God feels I must understand I trust that He will enlighten me when the time is right.

Just sharing my thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Danus]

If you'll permit me to inject my thoughts here...

Like BornAgain, I never really heard of "predestination" before joining this site. At times I wish I was still ignorant of the term because as I read through these discussion all I get is confused as if my brain is being twisted in a knot. Although, I must admit that I do enjoy reading the discussion even if I struggle to keep up. For me the topic of predestination is like the topic of trinity. I don't claim to understand it but if it is something that God feels I must understand I trust that He will enlighten me when the time is right.

Just sharing my thoughts. Thanks.

I think the good news is that we don't have to understand it, but It might be difficult for some to accept.

I was first made aware of it by Dr Craig Strickland, at least the doctrine. It bothered me a little, but it also helped answer a nagging problem I was having trying to figure out why the heck God seemed to be stalking me. That's how I felt at that time.

 

[BornAgain]

Possibly. depends on ones vocabulary.
Foreordained
(of God or fate) Appoint or decree (something) beforehand: "progress is not foreordained"

Predestined:

1. (of God) Destine (someone) for a particular fate or purpose.
2. Determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will or fate.

Foreordained is mentioned once in the entire bible: I tried to find predestined in the OT & NT and could not find it.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Foreknown means to know before; Christ was so recognized from before "the foundation of the world." "Foundation" indicates here the beginning, and in context,the beginning of the "world.

Christ, was foreknown from before the beginning of the age. What age? Creation. From the time when Christ was ordained as a sacrifice into the period before creation of the universe. It is difficult to associated with it the impossibilities to distinguish between the foreknowledge of God to such a plan of redemption and the will that originated it. The two are in the nature of the case inseparable. To project a plan of redemption into the period prior to the fall of man raises immediately and inevitably the question of the free agency of Adam and Eve.

I think that is what you kind of said in your previous post...

 

[BornAgain]

If you'll permit me to inject my thoughts here...

Like BornAgain, I never really heard of "predestination" before joining this site. At times I wish I was still ignorant of the term because as I read through these discussion all I get is confused as if my brain is being twisted in a knot. Although, I must admit that I do enjoy reading the discussion even if I struggle to keep up. For me the topic of predestination is like the topic of trinity. I don't claim to understand it but if it is something that God feels I must understand I trust that He will enlighten me when the time is right.

Just sharing my thoughts. Thanks.

This brings to mind a scripture that sometimes it is better to have not known than to know...then you can't plead ignorance. :p 2 Peter 2:21

I am not sure either but when I read all of the controversy I have to study in order to know I am doing things right...it gets confusing and mind boggling but at the end of the day if I can learn something it is all worth it. I learned in bible study that if somebody were to approach me and the subject was to come up regarding my faith or relating to it, was I prepared to have an answer?

 

[Eventide]

I prefer the word Just, as in justice, to the word fair, but many have rejected the doctrine of grace as it has been presented to say that it is unfair. I think them saying each man must accept and decide is more fair. That seems better.

Fairness seems to be a man-made construct. I understand it. We want to be fair, play fair, all that.

Calvin is "in your face" type stuff. It's offensive, to some. It was also to me at one point. he wrote what he wrote to be that way I think. He wanted to challenge people. really make them think about the gospel in it's rawest way possible.

But then, the cross is also offensive to many. That God would do that and ask that we accept it.

Therein lies the problem.. rather than preaching CHRIST you preach CALVIN..

In Christ we are united, in Calvin we're divided.

Simple as that.

 

[Danus]

Therein lies the problem.. rather than preaching CHRIST you preach CALVIN..

In Christ we are united, in Calvin we're divided.

Simple as that.

I'm not preaching in here. I'm discussing theology, and defending it.

 

[Eventide]

I'm not preaching in here. I'm discussing theology, and defending it.

You should have titled this thread..

What does Calvin mean by Predestination..

LOL

 

[rrowell]

Calvin is not a denomination. It's important to say this. I have meet many people who belong to various denominations or Christian groups who express what Calvin expressed but who say they hate Calvin. Calvin, Calvin Calvin ....I wish we could get away from that name and only have it on our underwear, but the man did write some very heavy stuff and it's difficult not to bring him up when discussing the gospel.

What is difficult is his "teaching", his "doctrine" and not finding any of it in the Bible.

 

[Danus]

What is difficult is his "teaching", his "doctrine" and not finding any of it in the Bible.

I don't see why that would be difficult if it where correct.

We are discussing predestination. Something Calvin taught, and is clearly in the bible. Paul talked about it.

 

[rrowell]

Possibly. depends on ones vocabulary.
Foreordained
(of God or fate) Appoint or decree (something) beforehand: "progress is not foreordained"

Predestined:

1. (of God) Destine (someone) for a particular fate or purpose.
2. Determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will or fate.

The "Predestined" Paul teaches is Christ Jesus and his Church.

Romans 8:29 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

AKA: Jesus


Romans 8:30 (KJV)
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


"Moreover whom he did predestinate" Jesus, "them he also called" All of man, "and whom he justified" those who obey, "them he also glorified" they will enter his rest.

 

[Danus]

The "Predestined" Paul teaches is Christ Jesus and his Church.

Romans 8:29 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

AKA: Jesus


Romans 8:30 (KJV)
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


"Moreover whom he did predestinate" Jesus, "them he also called" All of man, "and whom he justified" those who obey, "them he also glorified" they will enter his rest.

So you think Romans 8:29 is only speaking of Jesus and not of the saved?

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Paul is only speaking of Christ and not of those who are saved is your take?

Also where are you getting "predestinate"? if Jesus being singular why use the word "those" ?

 

[rrowell]

I don't see why that would be difficult if it where correct.

That's the problem with it, it is not correct.

We are discussing predestination. Something Calvin taught, and is clearly in the bible. Paul talked about it.

Paul does not teach that, I addressed this in a previous post, I quote myself here:

The "Predestined" Paul teaches is Christ Jesus and his Church.

Romans 8:29 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

AKA: Jesus


Romans 8:30 (KJV)
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


"Moreover whom he did predestinate" Jesus, "them he also called" All of man, "and whom he justified" those who obey, "them he also glorified" they will enter his rest.

 

[savedbygrace57]

A Gospel Doctrine !

Predestination is a Gospel Doctrine, the word

proorizō

means:

to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Its Taught in the Gospel here Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This is predestination to Faith in Jesus Christ ! See Gal 3:26

Also its in the Gospel here Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This is predestination to Glorification or complete Christ likeness !

 

[Danus]

That's the problem with it, it is not correct.

Paul does not teach that, I addressed this in a previous post, I quote myself here:

Now you say Paul does not teach predestination? You just said he did but only talking about Jesus.

Well let's see if we can find it again. Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

There are other verse where Paul points out predestination. Do you not have these words in Romans 8:28-30 in your bible?

What are you trying to add to this conversation? Are you here to talk about predestination or not?

 

[Mitspa]

I think to understand to term "predestination" one must consider its simple meaning?

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo

(pro- before)


horizō
hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound (“horizonâ€), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.

I believe it simple means that God has made a "path" a "way" for all who believe to be conformed to the "Image Of His Son" by way of the truth!

Psa 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Psa 25:10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Thus we have the "Gospel" in terms of "walking with the Lord on His Paths!
"Walking in the Spirit" etc..

Now having made "the way" or "path" the Lord has a "destination" in mind?

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This is a process, with the requirement of being set free from the "law" and by the power of "the ministry of righteousness" we are conformed from faith to faith, glory to glory!

So then we must continue in faith and growth in "grace" to be conformed to "His Image" thus we arrive at the "pre-determined" "destination".

I believe this is a "simple doctrine" not complex!

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

I wanted to bring this discussion back to "scripture"! To deny the use of this "term" and its CLEAR intention for the "believer" is not honest nor helpful in my estimation. Some of you seem so determined to make a point, you make no point at all!:eeeekkk

 

[Danus]

I'll catch you peeps tomorrow. Right now I am "predestined" to watch a movie with my family. I'd stay and chat, but it was planed before hand. I must go and fulfill my destiny.

 

[Mitspa]

I'll catch you peeps tomorrow. Right now I am "predestined" to watch a movie with my family. I'd stay and chat, but it was planed before hand. I must go and fulfill my destiny.

It is Written!