What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[jocor]

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. Luke 16:22

Jesus plainly said that the beggar, Lazarus died, and was carried by angels to Abraham's Bosom.

Why would Jesus say such a thing if it wasn't the truth?

If we are to take Yeshua's words literally, then Abraham has one GIANT bosom to be able to hold all the people that go there. Are we to believe that people literally have conversations between paradise and hell? Can those in paradise see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable?

Jesus goes on to describe a specific conversation between Abraham, the rich man and Lazarus.

Those words are recorded in the bible, as scripture.

This parable is in a series of parables given by Yeshua including the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son and the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-11). Do we have wool and four legs like sheep? Are we made of silver? No. It is not meant to be understood literally.

Why would Jesus say that Abraham said these words? -
Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

I believe Abraham said these words to the rich man who was being tormented in the flame down in the heart of the earth.

JLB

Yeshua was talking to the Pharisees who were covetous (Luke 16:14). He was trying to teach them a veiled lesson as he usually did via a parable. They received much from Yahweh and viewed it as His favor upon them. However, they also viewed the poor as being out of Yahweh's favor. The lessons are 1) that if the Jews do not repent, they will find themselves suffering Yahweh's judgment because they are not living their lives in a pleasing way to Yahweh whereas those they look down upon are 2) there is no second chance. The decisions they make in this life will determine their fate and it cannot be changed (the great gulf fixed) and 3) Reading Moses and the prophets was not enough. They needed to HEAR their words (obey Yahweh's teachings given through Moses and the prophets). They wrote of the one who would rise from the dead, but if they won't hear Moses, they won't hear Yeshua either.

 

[jocor]

jocor Hello,

((Mammon meanswealth.)) Actually here you are not correct.....When the witten word of God speaks of Mammon it is talking about the worldy system or another words the babylonian way which is the current world system.
Wealth is NOT ever forbiden or talked as being wrong in the written word of God.
When scripture says You can not serve both mammon and God..... It is once again referring to serving the world system where you meet your own needs and place getting your piece of the pie as the most bigest thing in your life with out God.
Have a very blessed day
jim

Can you please tell me the number of the post you are addressing where I mentioned "Mammon"?

 

[JLB]

f we are to take Yeshua's words literally, then Abraham has one GIANT bosom to be able to hold all the people that go there. Are we to believe that people literally have conversations between paradise and hell? Can those in paradise see people burning in hell? Can they hear their screams? Do souls actually have fingers and tongues as described in the parable?

The words of Jesus are recorded in scripture.

I see no indication of this being a parable.

You keep saying over and over that it's a parable, but parables don't use real names and the context surely doesn't merit it being a parable.

Abraham's Bosom was another name for paradise, which was located in the heart of the earth, as Jesus told the thief on the cross -

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, so "today" places the thief in the heart of the earth.

This teaches us paradise was located in the heart of the earth, and separated from hell.

People were kept there until Jesus descended down to the heart of the earth and preached to them. See 1 Peter 3:19

Jesus teaches us from Luke 16 that Lazarus went to a place of rest, contentment, and peace.

Abraham's Bosom is the place where Abraham the Patriarch was and to be with him by his side.

While being tormented in the place of the dead, he looked up and saw Abraham at a distance with Lazarus at his side.
Luke 16:23 Common English Version.


20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores ,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:20-24

... in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

Do you believe there is a place of torment called hell that is down in the heart of the earth?


JLB

 

[JLB]

But more importantly, what I believe is that jocor has every spiritual right and privilege to keep a literal Mosaic Sabbath

No

I agree, we are not obligated to keep the Sabbath as the law of Moses mandates.


For anyone to keep the literal Mosaic Sabbath, then they are obligated to obey all that goes with it, which includes:

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15

No, Jocor nor anyone else has the privilege nor the "right' to put to death someone who does not keep the Sabbath as the law of Moses mandates.

It is sufficient that the the law of the God has set aside the seventh day for man to rest.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This parable is in a series of parables given by Yeshua including the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son and the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-11). Do we have wool and four legs like sheep? Are we made of silver? No. It is not meant to be understood literally.

The difference is Jesus used real people's names and stated actual conversations between these people.

the context of plain statement's of truth that precede this teaching about life after death -

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
No parable

15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. No parable

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
No parable

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
No parable

18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. No parable

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "
Luke 16:19-31


Where's Jesus' explanation of this "parable"?


JLB

 

[jocor]

Abraham's Bosom was another name for paradise, which was located in the heart of the earth, as Jesus told the thief on the cross -

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43

Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, so "today" places the thief in the heart of the earth.

This teaches us paradise was located in the heart of the earth, and separated from hell.

Luke 23:43 can also read, ""Assuredly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise."

This makes Paradise heaven and puts no time frame on when the repentant thief would go there.

People were kept there until Jesus descended down to the heart of the earth and preached to them. See 1 Peter 3:19

Assumption. 1 Peter 3:19 can be referring to Tartaroo where the angels (spirits) that sinned in Noah's day are confined in prison being held in chains of darkness.

Jesus teaches us from Luke 16 that Lazarus went to a place of rest, contentment, and peace.

Abraham's Bosom is the place where Abraham the Patriarch was and to be with him by his side.

While being tormented in the place of the dead, he looked up and saw Abraham at a distance with Lazarus at his side.
Luke 16:23 Common English Version.[/


20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores ,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:20-24

... in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

You call that a place of rest, contentment and peace when he sits there all day hearing the cries of people being tormented day and night??

Do you believe there is a place of torment called hell that is down in the heart of the earth?

JLB

Absolutely not. Hell is the grave. We get that term from the Old English phrase "helling potatoes" by burying them underground or in a cellar for storage.

 

[JLB]

Luke 23:43 can also read, ""Assuredly I say to you today, You will be with Me in Paradise."

This makes Paradise heaven and puts no time frame on when the repentant thief would go there.

Today you will be with Me in paradise... puts Jesus and the thief, whom Jesus promised would be with Him in the heart of the earth that very Day.

Jesus spent three days and nights in the heart of the earth, after He was crucified... as He first descended down before He rose on the Third Day.

"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles; and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again." Mark 10:33-34

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? Ephesians 4:9

Jesus was crucified, and descended down into the heart of the earth, for three days and nights and on the third day He rose.

The thief was "with Him" in Paradise, in the heart of the earth, on the day He was crucified.

These are some of the basic beliefs of Christianity.

Since you say you are not Christian, it comes as no surprise that you oppose these things.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Absolutely not. Hell is the grave. We get that term from the Old English phrase "helling potatoes" by burying them underground or in a cellar for storage.

Why do you suppose Jesus taught us the rich man was in hell in torment in the flame of fire, if it wasn't so?

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:23-24


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For anyone to keep the literal Mosaic Sabbath, then they are obligated to obey all that goes with it...

They are not obligated to any part of it that is fulfilled through the work of Christ on the cross. Or any part of it that gets trumped by the greater principle of mercy.

...which includes:

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15

No, Jocor nor anyone else has the privilege nor the "right' to put to death someone who does not keep the Sabbath as the law of Moses mandates.

Well, actually he does....as long as the death penalty is carried out correctly and in order. But I'm guessing jocor is smarter than that. He's probably fully cognizant of the things that he has done that deserve death, but which he has not justly died for. As a result he shows mercy to those who he thinks deserve death instead of condemning them according to the law and leaves the business of Judgment to the Lord. The same Lord, by the way, that died the required death penalty of the law for everyone who deserves it and gives them space and time to accept it.

13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:13 NASB)

I'm guessing jocor has chosen to be shown mercy by showing mercy instead of making sure the death penalties of the law get carried out.

 

[jocor]

Today you will be with Me in paradise... puts Jesus and the thief, whom Jesus promised would be with Him in the heart of the earth that very Day.

Correct, if you use that translation. However, "....today, You will be with me in Paradise" has the promise being made "today", but carried out at the resurrection.

These are some of the basic beliefs of Christianity.

Since you say you are not Christian, it comes as no surprise that you oppose these things.

JLB

I oppose all teachings that are not in line with Scripture whether they are Christian or not.

 

[jocor]

I agree, we are not obligated to keep the Sabbath as the law of Moses mandates.


For anyone to keep the literal Mosaic Sabbath, then they are obligated to obey all that goes with it, which includes:

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:14-15

No, Jocor nor anyone else has the privilege nor the "right' to put to death someone who does not keep the Sabbath as the law of Moses mandates.

It is sufficient that the the law of the God has set aside the seventh day for man to rest.


JLB

You are correct. I do not have the privilege or the right to put a Sabbath breaker to death, but Yahweh does (Nu 15:32-36). However, under the New Covenant, Sabbath breakers are not put to death because Yeshua paid that price with his own life. He died so that the price of your thefts, adulteries, idolatries, Sabbath breaking, false witnessing, etc., would not fall on you. Therefore, we should not continue to do the very things that caused Yeshua to die for us.

However, if you should choose to continue breaking the Sabbath, then you will suffer the consequences by being the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
​

You will also lose out on the blessing of rest in this life and the following promise in the age to come;

Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in YHWH; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken it.​

 

[JLB]

Well, actually he does....as long as the death penalty is carried out correctly and in order.

I see. So you believe that those who don't keep the Sabbath are to be stoned to death by the rest of the congregation, as long as it is carried out correctly.

I disagree with you on this as the law of Moses has been made obsolete by God, having nailed it to the cross.

I would suggest you spend more time in the New testament, as I don't find that command anywhere.



JLB

 

[jocor]

Why do you suppose Jesus taught us the rich man was in hell in torment in the flame of fire, if it wasn't so?

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:23-24

JLB

He was using torment in fire to get his point across to the Jews that they will suffer greatly because of their sins if they don't repent. He was also teaching them how much they will be blessed and at peace in Abraham's bosom if they do repent.

BTW, here is an excerpt from John Gill's commentary on this parable.

John Gill:

In Beza's most ancient copy, and in another manuscript of his it is read by way of preface, "he said also another parable": which shows, that this is not a history of matter of fact, or an historical account of two such persons, as the "rich" man and the beggar, who had lately lived at Jerusalem;
​

 

[JLB]

Correct, if you use that translation. However, "....today, You will be with me in Paradise" has the promise being made "today", but carried out at the resurrection.



I oppose all teachings that are not in line with Scripture whether they are Christian or not.

Great!

Do you oppose the idea that Jesus Christ is both God and Savior, based on the scripture from Titus?

... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

There is only One Lord and He is God.

That is why the law of Moses has changed to the law of Christ.

Christ is our Lord and God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

However, if you should choose to continue breaking the Sabbath, then you will suffer the consequences by being the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:19-48


Where in these verses do you find Jesus saying anything about the Sabbath?


JLB

 

[JLB]

He was using torment in fire to get his point across to the Jews that they will suffer greatly because of their sins if they don't repent. He was also teaching them how much they will be blessed and at peace in Abraham's bosom if they do repent.

BTW, here is an excerpt from John Gill's commentary on this parable.

John Gill:

In Beza's most ancient copy, and in another manuscript of his it is read by way of preface, "he said also another parable": which shows, that this is not a history of matter of fact, or an historical account of two such persons, as the "rich" man and the beggar, who had lately lived at Jerusalem;
​

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:23-24

So based on these words of Jesus, you are teaching people on this Forum and else where that the rich man was not in hell or in a flame of fire?


JLB

 

[jocor]

Great!

Do you oppose the idea that Jesus Christ is both God and Savior, based on the scripture from Titus?

... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

There is only One Lord and He is God.

That is why the law of Moses has changed to the law of Christ.

Christ is our Lord and God.


JLB

Many other versions, such as the Revised Version, American Standard Version, NAS, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, New American Bible,NEB, etc., translate the verse differently. The NASB, for example, reads, “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”

This translation is saying Yeshua is the "glory of God". (A word of caution. ToS 2.1: "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act." Do not push the envelope on this. Obadiah)

You wrote, "There is only One Lord and He is God", but Paul wrote, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Yeshua Messiah, through whom are all things, and we through him." 1Co 8:6

 

[jocor]

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'
34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:19-48


Where in these verses do you find Jesus saying anything about the Sabbath?
JLB

I don't find it in those verses. I find it in the ones you left out that preceded the verse I quoted:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
​

I also find it in the verse I quoted:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
​

The Sabbath is one of the greatest commandments.

 

[jocor]

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:23-24

So based on these words of Jesus, you are teaching people on this Forum and else where that the rich man was not in hell or in a flame of fire?


JLB

He was in the grave, but not in literal flames of fire. Fire is a symbol for Yahweh's anger and judgment (Psalm 89:46; Isaiah 66:15; Lam 2:4; Ezekiel 21:31 ; 22:31). The Pharisees knew this well which is why Yeshua chose it. The rich man was suffering the anger and final judgment of Yahweh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see. So you believe that those who don't keep the Sabbath are to be stoned to death by the rest of the congregation, as long as it is carried out correctly.

Obviously, Moses didn't make a mistake in regard to the will of God when he passed that requirement down from God. If jocor believes by conscience that the literal Sabbath and it's punishment is still binding then he's doing right in regard to the Sabbath and the death penalty. He's being true to his conviction, and by virtue of conscience that's what God requires of him (Romans 14:23 NASB). But I know he also knows that Christ is the required death that Sabbath violators owe God. So I see nothing inconsistent or hypocritical in his belief and practice about Sabbath keeping.

I think a law keeper who knows there is a punishment of death for the one who violates Sabbath but who knows God accepts the sacrifice of Christ as that required death is more informed than the person who doesn't keep Sabbath because they think it and the death penalty were abolished by God, not knowing that Christ is the fulfillment of the requirements of the law, not the abolishing of the law. Christ is the death that the law requires. God did not do away with that requirement. He fulfilled it in the blood and body of Christ. Few Protestants are even remotely aware of this truth. They are far more uninformed about the meaning of Christ's death than the law keeper who is sure he has to keep a literal Sabbath.

I would suggest you spend more time in the New testament, as I don't find that command anywhere.

JLB

You don't have to come to the same conclusion about law keeping that jocor has come to, but I suggest that you learn from what he says. (Edit: Some) Messianic believers (Edit: can be) more educated about things like the law and the will of God than most Protestants. If a person is humble enough, the (Edit: might) learn something from them.

Probably the number one thing you (Edit: might) learn from them if you start honestly listening with a teachable spirit is the fundamental truth that law keeping is not forbidden for any and all reasons as most of the Protestant church teaches. It is forbidden when it is done for the purpose of trying to be made righteous. We perhaps see this most clearly in this passage:

(Let's not make assumptions that just because someone is not part of a particular movement, such as the Messianic movement, or because they hold to a different interpretation of grey area scriptures that this difference in opinion is just because they are not educated enough. Obadiah)

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28,31 NASB)

Most of the Protestant church teaches that faith did nullify the law. But as we can see, what Paul is actually saying is a man can not be justified by works of the law but only by faith, but that faith does not nullify the works of the law. How any one person thinks in his heart that he upholds and establishes the righteousness of the law through his faith is between him, his conscience, and God. But one thing's for sure; it's impossible to argue that any and all law keeping is forbidden. That's not what is forbidden. Faith does not nullify the law. What is forbidden is trying to be justified righteous in and of yourself by works of the law.