What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

I agree that all will be made alive at his coming. He will come the second time at the 7th trumpet to resurrect the firstfruits of the dead. He will take them to heaven. He will then come back a third time in Rev 19 and resurrect the main harvest in Rev 20:4.

I also agree that the resurrection refers to dead saints being made immortal.

No sir. There is no special "firstfruits" resurrection. It's all shall be made alive.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.1 Corinthians 15:22-23

... those who are Christ's, represents all who are Christ's

There is no Third time.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[JLB]

In Mt 15, the scribes and Pharisees had seen the disciples eat bread without first washing their hands. This was contrary to their traditional beliefs. At that time, however, the disciples only ate clean food. Therefore, the context is eating clean food with unwashed hands. It has nothing to do with eating unclean animal flesh.

As a result of their question in verse 2, Yeshua rebukes their tradition and their hypocrisy and sums up his statements in Mt. 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man." This chapter has nothing to do with cleansing unclean meat. The issue was centered on tradition and outward ritual cleansing, which made them appear holy. But Yeshua wants us to have complete change of heart and mind, not of the outward appearance.

When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.


Jesus spoke plainly to us in these words, which is why Paul said this concerning food -
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Romans 14:14-15

...there is nothing unclean of itself;

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods."

...thus purifying all foods.

...there is nothing unclean of itself;

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17


JLB

 

[JLB]

May I ask what Torah Yeshua gave that was different from the Torah Yahweh gave leading to its abolishment?

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, Matthew 5:43-44

Can you show from the law where it is commanded to love your enemies?


Can you show from the law where Gentiles are to be priest's rather than the Levites?
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1 Peter 2:9

Can you show from the law where a person from the tribe of Melchizedek is to be high Priest forever.

 

[jocor]

No sir. There is no special "firstfruits" resurrection. It's all shall be made alive.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.1 Corinthians 15:22-23

... those who are Christ's, represents all who are Christ's

There is no Third time.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

Do you agree that the 7th Trumpet of Rev 11:15 is the "last trump" signaling the resurrection in 1 Cor 15:52?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Messiah; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.​

If no, please explain why.
If yes, please explain what is happening in Rev 19:11-16:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
​

Is this the same coming as Rev 11:15? I say no. If you say yes, please explain why.

Now explain what is happening in Rev 20:4-5:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Yeshua, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Messiah a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
​

As I see it, the first resurrection occurs in stages just as the literal agricultural harvest did. It started with Yeshua, the first of the firstfruits, then the 288,000 firstfruits, then the main harvest (Rev 20). Once the main harvest of souls is completed in Rev 20:4, the first resurrection will be finished.

 

[jocor]

When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.


Jesus spoke plainly to us in these words, which is why Paul said this concerning food -
I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Romans 14:14-15

...there is nothing unclean of itself;

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods."

...thus purifying all foods.

...there is nothing unclean of itself;

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17


JLB

Again you just repeat yourself without addressing the points I made.

 

[JLB]

Again you just repeat yourself without addressing the points I made.

I'm showing you scripture that you ignore.

Both Jesus and Paul teach that food is not the issue.

Food can not defile you.

..thus purifying all foods.

...there is nothing unclean of itself;

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17

JLB

 

[jocor]

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, Matthew 5:43-44

This is not new. Yeshua is merely elaborating on the deeper meaning of Lev 19:18. Yahweh never commanded anyone to "hate your enemy." That was a wrong interpretation of the Jewish leaders.

Can you show from the law where it is commanded to love your enemies?

Exo 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Deu 23:7 Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.

Pro 25:21-22 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and YHWH shall reward thee.​

I included Prov 25 even though it is not "from the law" because it shows Yahweh's will for Israel. They were to show love for their enemies through acts of love (doing good to those who hated them). Yeshua was teaching them how to love their enemies by also blessing them and praying for them.

Can you show from the law where Gentiles are to be priest's rather than the Levites?
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
1 Peter 2:9

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
​

Gentile believers are grafted into Israel and partake of this promise through Messiah. It is part of the New Covenant that Yahweh said would come. He said that long before Yeshua was born.

Can you show from the law where a person from the tribe of Melchizedek is to be high Priest forever.

The law did not allow for that. That is why the law was changed by Yahweh via His oath in Psalm 110:4 before Yeshua was even born.

 

[JLB]

Do you agree that the 7th Trumpet of Rev 11:15 is the "last trump" signaling the resurrection in 1 Cor 15:52?

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

No third time!

To understand Revelation one needs to understand the clear and plain words of scripture.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

God will bring with Him, is what occurs in Revelation 19. The saints in heaven coming with Jesus.

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

The saints in heaven and the saints on earth are gathered together, at His Coming.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:17

The Resurrection and Rapture are one event that occurs at His Coming.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

The order is: Christ the firstfruits...afterward at His Coming, those who are His?

Where do you see any "other" firstfruits in this scripture.


JLB

 

[jocor]

I'm showing you scripture that you ignore.

Both Jesus and Paul teach that food is not the issue.

Food can not defile you.

..thus purifying all foods.

...there is nothing unclean of itself;

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17

JLB

There is no sense in discussing this further if you will not address my posts concerning ...thus purifying all foods. and ...there is nothing unclean of itself; I did not ignore your scripture. I addressed them in post #152. You have yet to comment on my point of view.

 

[jocor]

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

God will bring with Him, is what occurs in Revelation 19. The saints in heaven coming with Jesus.

You did not answer my questions. I ask questions so I can understand what you are believing, but you don't answer them.

Concerning your words above, if Yeshua is coming out of heaven in Rev 19, with the saints, when did those saints go to heaven?

 

[JLB]

There is no sense in discussing this further if you will not address my posts concerning ...thus purifying all foods. and ...there is nothing unclean of itself; I did not ignore your scripture. I addressed them in post #152. You have yet to comment on my point of view.

from post 152 -

Recall what Peter said in Acts 10:14, ". . . I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." The word common in this verse is "koinos" and the word unclean is the Greek word "akathartos". Animals declared unclean by Yahweh in Lev. 11 are akathartos. However, when a clean animal becomes inedible for some reason it is called common or koinos. Paul's statement in Rom 14:14 referred to clean meat which a weak brother would consider common and therefore not eat, preferring instead to only eat herbs, (vs. 2). A pig is unclean of itself, it was created unclean. A goat that became common in the mind of a person through outside means would be considered inedible by that person. The weaker brother esteemed in his own mind that meat should not be eaten because it may have become common for some reason. It is common meat that Paul was referring to, not unclean meat.

Paul's statement in Rom 14:14 referred to clean meat which a weak brother would consider common and therefore not eat, preferring instead to only eat herbs, (vs. 2). A pig is unclean of itself, it was created unclean.

...which a weak brother would consider common and therefore not eat,

Why would a Gentile consider pork meat "common". Those are your words and do not line up with scripture.

I addressed your point with scripture concerning this very subject.

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; Romans 14:14

The context is food.

Peter said -
I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.

Peter also called "unclean" what God had called clean.
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."Acts 10:15

Peter also got corrected in this matter of thinking by Paul -
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.Galatians 2:11-12

Gentiles were considered "unclean", and their food was considered "unclean".


Paul instructed by the Lord taught otherwise...
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Concerning your words above, if Yeshua is coming out of heaven in Rev 19, with the saints, when did those saints go to heaven?

When they died!

 

[jocor]

...which a weak brother would consider common and therefore not eat,

Why would a Gentile consider pork meat "common". Those are your words and do not line up with scripture.

A Gentile would not consider pork common. Pork is not even mentioned in this chapter. The weaker brother would not eat meat. He chose to be a vegetarian because he feared the meat might be common, not unclean.

I addressed your point with scripture concerning this very subject.

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; Romans 14:14

How can you address my point by quoting the very verse I was addressing??

The context is food.

Peter said -
I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.

Peter also called "unclean" what God had called clean.
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."Acts 10:15

This passage has nothing to do with Yahweh cleansing food. He simply used food to teach Peter that the Gentiles are cleansed (Acts 10:28). You are giving the vision an interpretation that Yahweh did not give Peter.

Peter also got corrected in this matter of thinking by Paul -
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.Galatians 2:11-12

Gentiles were considered "unclean", and their food was considered "unclean".

Which is why he feared the Jews who would accuse him of eating with "unclean" Gentiles. He was being a hypocrite.

Paul instructed by the Lord taught otherwise...
14

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

You keep repeating the same false translation over and over. It should be translated common, not unclean.

 

[jocor]

When they died!

When people die, their breath of life returns to Yahweh and their body goes in the grave awaiting the resurrection. They do not and cannot come from heaven before they are resurrected. First they are resurrected (Rev 11:15; 12:5), then they return with Yeshua in Rev 19.

You previously wrote;

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14
​

If they are sleeping (in death), how can they come out of heaven? Were they woken up in heaven to come down and enter their bodies when Yeshua wakes them up at the resurrection (Daniel 12:2; Isa 26:19).

 

[JLB]

When people die, their breath of life returns to Yahweh and their body goes in the grave awaiting the resurrection. They do not and cannot come from heaven before they are resurrected. First they are resurrected (Rev 11:15; 12:5), then they return with Yeshua in Rev 19.

You previously wrote;

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14
​

If they are sleeping (in death), how can they come out of heaven? Were they woken up in heaven to come down and enter their bodies when Yeshua wakes them up at the resurrection (Daniel 12:2; Isa 26:19).

Their body is sleeping.

When they die [their body] they are present with the Lord.

...to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8

and again -

These martyrs were in heaven when they were killed.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:9-11


JLB

 

[jocor]

Their body is sleeping.

When they die [their body] they are present with the Lord.

...to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8

We do not go to be present with the Lord the moment we die. Paul knew this because he knew Scripture. He knew the dead know nothing (Ecc 9:5), that they have no consciousness, and that they are figuratively sleeping. When one wakes from sleep, it is as if no time has elapsed. When a person dies, they lose consciousness, but the moment they resurrect it is as though no time has past. When Paul dies, he will sleep just like David, Abraham, John the Baptist, etc. When he resurrects, he will be in the presence of Yeshua. From Paul's perspective, it will be instantaneous because time stands still for the dead. When we die, we breathe our last breath. The next breath we take will be in Yeshua's presence.

and again -

These martyrs were in heaven when they were killed.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:9-11


JLB

Utterly false! The died on Earth and were buried. They figuratively cry from their grave.

 

[JLB]

We do not go to be present with the Lord the moment we die.

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

When we are absent from the body at death, we will be present with the Lord.

This is true since Jesus ascended into heaven and brought those OT saints with Him from the heart of the earth.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10

Here are Jesus' words, that record for us a conversation between Abraham and Lazarus in the heart of the earth before Jesus descended down.
see 1 Peter 3:19

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' Luke 16:19-24

and again we see Samuel speaking with Saul after Samuel had died -

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do."
16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?
17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 1 Samuel 28:15-17


JLB

 

[jocor]

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

When we are absent from the body at death, we will be present with the Lord.

This is true since Jesus ascended into heaven and brought those OT saints with Him from the heart of the earth.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10

The captives of verse 8 are not OT saints. They are sin, Satan, death, and the grave. They held us captive, but Yeshua took them captive. I believe verse 9-10 refer to his descending from heaven all the way down, eventually, to the grave or heart of the earth.

Here are Jesus' words, that record for us a conversation between Abraham and Lazarus in the heart of the earth before Jesus descended down.
see 1 Peter 3:19

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' Luke 16:19-24

This is a parable. There is no place called hell where people are tormented forever in fire. And it certainly is not a place where Lazarus can come and go as he pleases or where a drop of water will be a relief.

and again we see Samuel speaking with Saul after Samuel had died -

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do."
16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?
17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 1 Samuel 28:15-17
JLB

Are you suggesting that Samuel was brought up from the grave, in verse 15, to enter heaven?

 

[JLB]

The captives of verse 8 are not OT saints. They are sin, Satan, death, and the grave. They held us captive, but Yeshua took them captive. I believe verse 9-10 refer to his descending from heaven all the way down, eventually, to the grave or heart of the earth.

He descended down into the heart of the earth, from the Tomb, [not from heaven], where He was laid to rest for three days and three nights.

Clearly, the place He descended down from was earth, not from heaven, as it says...He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth.

Afterward, that is to say, after He descended down into the lower parts of the earth, then He ascended "far above all the heavens" from the lower depths of the earth.

That is the scriptural order.

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10

 

[JLB]

Are you suggesting that Samuel was brought up from the grave, in verse 15, to enter heaven?

I am saying that Samuel was ascended up from the heart of the earth, which is called Abraham's Bosom, and Paradise, in order to speak to Saul, and to teach us about "life' after death.

Samuel didn't go to heaven until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

for it is written -

No one comes to the Father except through Me.


JLB