What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[Jethro Bodine]

Heb_8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Jethro, you are a brain surgeon. Which means you are very, very smart. :yes
Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

When the covenant is made it is only the ten commandments, no tabernacle, priests, feast of Pentecost, etc.. After they went into the promised land God gave them more laws and ordinances as they went along.
Lev_26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:

By the time we see the covenant confirmed/renewed just before the Israelites crossed over into the Promised Land we have no doubt that the covenant is much more than just the Ten Commandments.

Are you thinking that I'm saying only the ceremonial parts of the law were the covenant? I've been saying over and over in this and other law threads that the first covenant is the whole law of Moses, not just parts of it. So don't think I'm only saying the ceremonial parts were the covenant.

The first covenant is the whole law of Moses couched in a covenant. The law of Moses as a covenant was a system and way of relating to God in covenant. But a way that is no longer needed as a covenant now. Why? Because what that covenant sought to do in bringing man close to God is now done in a better way, a better Covenant by which we draw near to God. The law of Moses not being a covenant anymore hardly means we do not fulfill and uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses. It means we do not uphold and fulfill the righteousness of the law in the old WAY of the old covenant. Now we uphold and fulfill the righteousness of the law in the new way of the New Covenant:

"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (sin--see context), we have been released from the law (it's authority to keep us in sin--see context) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code (." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

 

[JLB]

And it's not a law that can be argued that it continues into the New Covenant because it's part of some other eternal law outside of the law of Moses. It's obviously a Mosaic command alone, pure and simple. Yet it continues in this New Covenant, defeating the 'cosmic law' argument.

If it does not require animal sacrifices to atone for the violation of the command, then it's not the law of Moses.

You seem to think that the New Covenant, is a "new version" of the law of Moses, because you misunderstand many things that are written about this subject.

Case in point: Romans 7.

You completely disregard the context to whom Paul is speaking and who is "married to whom".

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Then you disregard the plain and clear language itself when Paul plainly says:
you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Christ is the one who died, [the former husband] and Christ and Christ alone is the One who was raised from the dead, the new husband.

...dead to the law.
...she is free from that law.

The law of Moses in it's fullness.

Not some "mystical" separation of the law from the covenant.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Nice observation.

Ever noticed how Paul addresses the Gentile brothers later on and what he tells them?

Romans 11:13 - 13:8-10 (LEB) Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, ...
the one who loves someone else [#11] has fulfilled the law [#1-10].
For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery [#8],
you shall not commit murder [#6],
you shall not steal [#7],
you shall not covet [#10],”
and if there is any other commandment
[and there is, see #3, Sabbath],
are summed up in this statement: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself [#11, John 13:34].”
Love does not commit evil against a neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

​

I'll added to that.....
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Deborah13]

By the time we see the covenant confirmed/renewed just before the Israelites crossed over into the Promised Land we have no doubt that the covenant is much more than just the Ten Commandments.

Are you thinking that I'm saying only the ceremonial parts of the law were the covenant? I've been saying over and over in this and other law threads that the first covenant is the whole law of Moses, not just parts of it. So don't think I'm only saying the ceremonial parts were the covenant.

OK, that helps. I thought I had heard you say in the passed that the ceremonial laws had been put away or made obsolete but not the rest of the Law? So what you were really saying was that there was no longer a covenant in effect but all the Laws are, just not for justification?

The first covenant is the whole law of Moses couched in a covenant. The law of Moses as a covenant was a system and way of relating to God in covenant. But a way that is no longer needed as a covenant now. Why? Because what that covenant sought to do in bringing man close to God is now done in a better way, a better Covenant by which we draw near to God. The law of Moses not being a covenant anymore hardly means we do not fulfill and uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses. It means we do not uphold and fulfill the righteousness of the law in the old WAY of the old covenant. Now we uphold and fulfill the righteousness of the law in the new way of the New Covenant:
"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (sin--see context), we have been released from the law (it's authority to keep us in sin--see context) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code (." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

Bound to the law of sin and death, died to the law of sin and death, released from the law of sin and death. Free to serve God in spirit and truth, rather than the fleshy service to the written code, the law of sin and death.

 

[chessman]

When in the OT did God make that covenant? What is the scripture in the OT that describes that covenant being made?

Spoken of way Earlier (The Word).
Written down for them:

1.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26 (LEB) And then when Moses finished writing the words of this law on the scroll until they were complete, then Moses commanded the Levites carrying the ark of the covenant of Yahweh, saying, “Take the scroll of this law and put it at the side of the ark of the covenant of Yahweh your God, and it will be there as a witness against you.
​

Get it? The side of The Ark!
Notice it was there as a witness against them, as Paul points out.

Romans 7:7-8 (LEB) What then shall we say? Is the law sin? May it never be! But I would not have known sin except through the law, for I would not have known covetousness if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin is dead. ​

Which is not an exclusive aspect of Moses' Law, either:

2.

Joshua 24:25-26 So Joshua made a covenant with the people on that day, and he established for them a statute and a judgment at Shechem. Then Joshua wrote these words in a scroll of the law of God, and he took a large stone and set it up there under a large tree, which is at the shrine of Yahweh. ​

Fortunately, for us, that's not God's only Law or purpose thereof (judgment):

3.

Isaiah 30:8-9, 18 (LEB) Now go, write it on a tablet with them,and inscribe it on a scroll,that it may be for the time to come,forever, forever. For it is a people of rebellion, deceitful children,children who are not willing to hear the instruction of Yahweh, Therefore Yahweh waits to be gracious to you,and therefore he will rise up to show you mercy,for Yahweh is a God of justice;blessed are all those who wait for him.​

And rise up He did!

Happy Easter!

 

[JLB]

And then when Moses finished writing the words of this law on the scroll until they were complete, then Moses commanded the Levites carrying the ark of the covenant of Yahweh, saying, “Take the scroll of this law and put it at the side of the ark of the covenant of Yahweh your God, and it will be there as a witness against you.

Yes, it was against them, as Paul expounds on this truth in the New Testament.

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought I had heard you say in the passed that the ceremonial laws had been put away or made obsolete but not the rest of the Law?

Let me clarify: The entire law of Moses has now been made obsolete (no longer needed) as a covenant. But none of it has been abolished (Jesus said he did not come to do that, and Paul said faith does not nullify the law). The law being fulfilled, not abolished, in this New Covenant does mean some aspects of the law of Moses will 'disappear', as Jesus says, from the law. I have referred to those parts that 'disappeared' as the parts of the law that are obsolete--obsolete in regard to their literal fulfillment. But the entire law of Moses is obsolete in regard to it being a covenant.

So what you were really saying was that there was no longer a covenant in effect but all the Laws are, just not for justification?

Yes. And that those laws find their fulfillment in the new way of the New Covenant--through the Spirit--that is, through faith in Jesus Christ, not in the old way of the powerlessness of mere written words, and a literal system of worship, which was a copy of the real things we worship by now.

Bound to the law of sin and death, died to the law of sin and death, released from the law of sin and death. Free to serve God in spirit and truth, rather than the fleshy service to the written code, the law of sin and death.

Yes.

Let it be noted that there really is no such thing as fleshly service to the written code. It's impossible to adequately serve outside of the Spirit. So serving according to the written code is really a misnomer. So in that sense that is how 'the law' (the way of the law) is the way of sin, and the reward for that sin--death.

 

[chessman]

I'll added to that.....
1Jn 3:18

Yep. John picks up this same theme/topic from John 11 with his later Epistles, for sure. Something changed in John when he saw Jesus weep at Lazarus’ death. And I’m pretty sure seeing Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead had more than a little effect on his thinking about The Law of Moses, too
John kind of ‘switches gears’ in his thinking/writing after this event it seems to me as I read the Gospel of John.

People call 1 Cor 13 ‘The Love Chapter’ of the Bible and it’s read at almost all Christian weddings. Which I’ve always found a little odd frankly (though it was used at my wedding too). The fact is, Paul mentions “love” only eight times in 1 Cor 13 which only has 13 verses in it.

Where as, John mentions "love" seven times in John 13, ten times in John 14 and ten times in John 15. For a whooping percentage of 24% talk about “love (out of ~100 verses). Why isn’t John 13, 14 or 15 read at weddings, then??? But compare John’s 24% ‘love’ content in/around Chapter 14 to the same # of 100 verses of Paul’s in/around 1 Cor 13 we find Paul talking about “love” in 11% of the verses. To me, John 13-15 are the Bible's 'love chapters'.

John, summarizes his three+ chapter ‘love’ discussion with John 15:27 (LEB) For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.” And remember, Jesus just raised Lazarus from his sickness that lead to his death because He (Jesus) loved him, which seems to trigger John’s love topic starting in Chapter 11.

Wow Nellie, the Father Himself loves you (and me) and has the power to raise us from the dead! Now that’s a promise/law/covenant you can take to the bank!

Love is patient, love is kind, love is not jealous… sure.
But boy, “For the Father Himself loves you” should be read at wedding too!

Oh, I almost forgot; “Love never ends”. [OSAS]

 

[WIP]

Reminder:
ToS 2.4 Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate.

Making declarations about what another member believes or does not believe is a violation of the above. Address the topic or point made but do not address the person or make declarations about the person's belief.

 

[Deborah13]

Spoken of way Earlier (The Word).
Written down for them:

1.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26 (LEB) And then when Moses finished writing the words of this law on the scroll until they were complete, then Moses commanded the Levites carrying the ark of the covenant of Yahweh, saying, “Take the scroll of this law and put it at the side of the ark of the covenant of Yahweh your God, and it will be there as a witness against you.
​

Get it? The side of The Ark!
Notice it was there as a witness against them, as Paul points out.

Romans 7:7-8 (LEB) What then shall we say? Is the law sin? May it never be! But I would not have known sin except through the law, for I would not have known covetousness if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin is dead. ​

Which is not an exclusive aspect of Moses' Law, either:

And the knowledge of sin is not exclusive to the Law of Moses.
Cain coveted what Abel had, the favor of YHVH. He knew it was wrong so it appears that he avoided talking to God about it. He may have heard what YHVH said to him but he didn't really listen.
Gen 4:4 and Abel, he hath brought, he also, from the female firstlings of his flock, even from their fat ones; and Yehovah looketh unto Abel and unto his present,
Gen 4:5 and unto Cain and unto his present He hath not looked; and it is very displeasing to Cain, and his countenance is fallen.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

2.

Joshua 24:25-26 So Joshua made a covenant with the people on that day, and he established for them a statute and a judgment at Shechem. Then Joshua wrote these words in a scroll of the law of God, and he took a large stone and set it up there under a large tree, which is at the shrine of Yahweh. ​

Fortunately, for us, that's not God's only Law or purpose thereof (judgment):

3.

Isaiah 30:8-9, 18 (LEB) Now go, write it on a tablet with them,and inscribe it on a scroll,that it may be for the time to come,forever, forever. For it is a people of rebellion, deceitful children,children who are not willing to hear the instruction of Yahweh, Therefore Yahweh waits to be gracious to you,and therefore he will rise up to show you mercy,for Yahweh is a God of justice;blessed are all those who wait for him.​

And rise up He did!

Happy Easter!

:amen
Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Happy Resurrection Day!

 

[Deborah13]

Let me clarify: The entire law of Moses has now been made obsolete (no longer needed) as a covenant. But none of it has been abolished (Jesus said he did not come to do that, and Paul said faith does not nullify the law). The law being fulfilled, not abolished, in this New Covenant does mean some aspects of the law of Moses will 'disappear', as Jesus says, from the law. I have referred to those parts that 'disappeared' as the parts of the law that are obsolete--obsolete in regard to their literal fulfillment. But the entire law of Moses is obsolete in regard to it being a covenant.


Yes. And that those laws find their fulfillment in the new way of the New Covenant--through the Spirit--that is, through faith in Jesus Christ, not in the old way of the powerlessness of mere written words, and a literal system of worship, which was a copy of the real things we worship by now.


Yes.

Let it be noted that there really is no such thing as fleshly service to the written code. It's impossible to adequately serve outside of the Spirit. So serving according to the written code is really a misnomer. So in that sense that is how 'the law' (the way of the law) is the way of sin, and the reward for that sin--death.

So are any of God's laws in effect for justification?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So are any of God's laws in effect for justification?

None of God's laws were ever in effect for justification. Justification has always been by faith. That is the lesson we learn from Abraham--and David when he sinned beyond the reach of atonement provided by the law. The law is not a temporary departure from that eternal truth. Paul explains how it is the Israelites that mistakenly interpreted it as a way to be justified by works, and not God making a way for people to be justified by works:

"30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it (that is, righteousness) by faith, but as though it were by works." (Romans 9:30-32 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Paul said faith does not nullify the law)

Paul says the law was abolished.

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

None of God's laws were ever in effect for justification.

The law of faith...

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:27

The obedience of faith is what justifies.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The obedience of faith is what justifies.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

 

[JLB]

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

That's a beautiful scripture.

What does it have to do with your statement -

None of God's laws were ever in effect for justification.

The law of faith, is the law that God has in effect for justification.

We know that a living faith that obeys, is the way we are justified.

That is the law of faith.


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

Our flesh can't no matter how we try,keep the law...That dos'nt mean the law is bad for it is good...Christ died so that we may repent

 

[JLB]

"Jethro Bodine, post: 1065626, member: 2065"]Let me clarify: The entire law of Moses has now been made obsolete (no longer needed) as a covenant. But none of it has been abolished (Jesus said he did not come to do that, and Paul said faith does not nullify the law). The law being fulfilled, not abolished, in this New Covenant does mean some aspects of the law of Moses will 'disappear', as Jesus says, from the law. I have referred to those parts that 'disappeared' as the parts of the law that are obsolete--obsolete in regard to their literal fulfillment. But the entire law of Moses is obsolete in regard to it being a covenant.

From your perspective:
What parts of this obsolete law and Covenant are New Covenant believing Christians required to obey, keep, do?

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of faith, is the law that God has in effect for justification.

We know that a living faith that obeys, is the way we are justified.

That is the law of faith.

Popular church doctrine has the 'law of faith' interpreted as another literal law outside the law of Moses, which it is not, because there is no law through which a person can be justified:

"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law." (Galatians 3:21 NASB)

Paul is speaking of the law of faith as a principle of truth, not a literal set of laws somewhere that impart righteousness. Righteousness can only be imparted through faith in God's promise of a Son who he has provided and who will inherit the blessing on our behalf. Obedience is the result of such faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The obedience of faith is what justifies.

I don't know if you meant to do that, but grammatically, you have the obedience doing the justifying. Which we know is simply not true at all. Faith justifies all by itself apart from righteous work:

"David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB)

That doesn't mean the faith that justifies can be all by itself, as so many in the church believe. It means that the faith, apart from the works, is what justifies all by itself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From your perspective:
What parts of this obsolete law and Covenant are New Covenant believing Christians required to obey, keep, do?

JLB

I'm going to guess at exactly what you're asking here, because we know that faith in Christ upholds ALL the law of Moses (Romans 3:31 NASB). If you mean what parts of the law of Moses are we still required to literally do, the answer is the moral component of the law of Moses. That's what fulfills all of the law of Moses: obedient faith--love (Galatians 5:14 NASB).

The worship, cleanliness, and separation components of the law find their satisfactory fulfillment in the blood and body of Christ, and our obedient faith in that blood and body. For example, the Feast of Unleavened Bread is fulfilled, not abolished, when we cleanse the household of the Body of sin (1 Corinthians 5:7-8 NASB). Just an example of how love fulfills the law--all of it.