Deborah13
Member
Just don't look at his acting career
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?
Jethro Bodine
Member
No, I'm pretty sure walking after the flesh means doing the deeds of the flesh, and walking after the Spirit means doing the deeds of the Spirit, and that we Christians most certainly can walk after the flesh, doing the deeds of the flesh:
"12 Therefore *, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:12-13 NASB)
And Paul says that anyone who does NOT walk after the Spirit is the one who is not condemned. Besides, Paul talks about Christians being condemned by what they do here:
"Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." (Romans 14:22 NASB)
And James talks about it here:
"9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. " (James 2:9 NASB)
Maybe you're afraid to interpret Romans 8:1 as the condemnation of doing wrong because you think that to be condemned means to be lost(?) It does not. At least as long as you don't persist in your condemnation to the point of eventually being turned over to it by God.
Jethro Bodine
Member
It sounds like you're saying we were married to the law.
What we used to be 'married' to is sinful flesh, submitting to the dictates of that husband, with the law acting as a sort of marriage license that held us in that marital submission and obedience to husband flesh:
"8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence." (Romans 7:8 NASB)
But at the cross, husband flesh died. Therefore, the law has no more authority to act like a marriage license and hold us in marital obedience to a husband that has died, and so with the death of husband flesh we are free to now be in marital submission to Christ:
18 Being then made free from sin (through death of the sin nature), ye became the servants of righteousness." (Romans 6:18 NASB)
So, we died to the law in the sense that the flesh died and ended the power of the law to stir up sin within us. That hardly means we don't have to now fulfil and uphold the righteous requirements of the law that once made us sin when husband flesh was alive because those righteous requirements are part of an old relationship. No. Now that husband flesh is dead, and with it the power of the law to stir sin up in us, we are now free to obey Christ and fulfill and uphold the righteous requirement(s) of the law.
No where does the bible say we were married to the flesh, that's just simply a misunderstanding of what is being taught.
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4
Several basic truths are being taught here by Paul, one of which is understood by those who know the law.
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
That word know, carries the idea of an intimate knowledge to the point of understanding.
The law carried a multifaceted fullness of meaning.
The direct meaning, as well as a "prophetic" meaning also.
Paul uses the direct meaning to teach a spiritual principle that points to Christ and His work of redeeming His people from the law.
The law has dominion over a man as long as he lives.
Jesus is the Word, the law that became flesh. When His flesh was crucified, so was the law with it, as he goes on to say -
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
as Paul teaches this to the Colossians -
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 1:14
and again -
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15
So, on this point, Deb is absolutely spot on with the statement she made -
as Paul plainly says concerning those who know the law, [Jews and proselytes] - you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
JLB
Deborah13
Member
I pretty sure you are correct, I agree, it means doing the deeds of the flesh because one is going ''after'' the things of the flesh.
But I say this to both of us, we have strayed, I think, from the topic of this thread.
Yup, James says that if they did that they were breaking the Law of Moses and if they broke one they had broken them all.
Better to be judged by the law of Christ, law of liberty, law of the Spirit. I really do like Maine lobster very much.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Do you think James was talking about the law in it's first covenant form?Yup, James says that if they did that they were breaking the Law of Moses and if they broke one they had broken them all.
Better to be judged by the law of Christ, law of liberty, law of the Spirit. I really do like Maine lobster very much.
Even the dietary laws get fulfilled, not abolished, in this New Covenant. It's just that they find their fulfillment in the way of the New Covenant, not in the old way of the first covenant, but fulfilled nonetheless. Just like the law of the oxen we talked about. The point being, we still come under the condemnation of the law when we do not fulfill the law of Moses, which means fulfilling the law of Moses in the new way of the New Covenant when it comes to the worship, cleanliness, and separation laws.
So, James is talking about the whole law, but in it's New Covenant form. And we are indeed convicted by that law when we do not uphold some aspect of it.
The law of Moses in it's New Covenant form?
One thing I find alarming in all these post's is, I seem to be the only one who discusses of brings up the fact that the Abrahamic Covenant is what the law was added to.
The laws and commandments of the Abrahamic Covenant is what the children of Israel "transgressed", that brought about the "adding of the law", until the Seed came.
The Abrahamic Covenant is what the law was added to, and is the prime Covenant that contains the New Covenant [Refreshed Abrahamic Covenant], of which believers are "grafted into", when they believe the Gospel.
The common denominator of the Abrahamic Covenant and the New covenant is Christ.
The Lord Himself made Covenant with Abraham. The same Lord became flesh and shed His blood, the blood of the New Covenant.
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:14
and again
17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
JLB
Deborah13
Member
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Well not quite, the Jews (Judah) were under a marriage contract with God. That is who Paul is talking to and convincing that they are no longer bond by that marriage contract and were free to enter into the new marriage contract with Christ. He had set them free from it so they could be married to Him. They died in Christ so they died to the law, that marriage contract. Just like when the husband dies he is no longer bond by the law.
The Gentiles who were not circumcised proselytes were not in this marriage contract with God. But at the same time they were still bond by the other covenants that were before the Sinai Covenant.
I don't have anything to add about the James scripture.
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Deborah13
Member
Because you do.
But how about this....Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
The bondwoman and her son were sent away. Abraham was sorry to see this son go because he loved him but God told him to listen to the freewoman.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Because you do.
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
The bondwoman and her son were sent away. Abraham was sorry to see this son go because he loved him but God told him to listen to the freewoman.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Good scripture!
Abraham was in covenant with the Lord Himself.
The promise was to the Seed.
The law was added to this covenant, until the Seed should come.
By saying "added", the Holy Spirit is indicating the law was a part of something greater.
By saying "until", the Holy Spirit is indicating the law was temporary.
JLB
:amen
Jethro Bodine
Member
Deborah, I don't think anyone argues that the first covenant has been laid aside. The argument is whether or not the law of Moses has been laid aside. We know it hasn't for the simple fact that when we are obedient through our faith in Christ the law of Moses gets fulfilled, not laid aside as obsolete.
The confusion comes in for some because the fulfillment of the law of Moses in this New Covenant, not it's abolishing, is done in a new way in regard to the various literal first covenant ways to keep the law of Moses. The law of the oxen being a good example. As we see, that law does not get abolished in this New Covenant. It gets fulfilled in this New Covenant, not abolished, when we feed the workers of the gospel who are busy treading out the grain in the kingdom of God. What got laid aside is the old covenant way to do that.
Note two things about the law of the oxen:
Like other laws, Christ did not fulfill that--we do. That defeats the argument that the law of Moses ceased because Christ fulfilled all of it so we don't have to.
And it's not a law that can be argued that it continues into the New Covenant because it's part of some other eternal law outside of the law of Moses. It's obviously a Mosaic command alone, pure and simple. Yet it continues in this New Covenant, defeating the 'cosmic law' argument.
Jethro Bodine
Member
In context, the dominion being spoken of here is the dominion of the law to make us sin. We have been released from the power of the law to do that because the sin it arouses died on the cross with Jesus. But so many in the church think 'dying to the law' means not having to do it anymore. True in regard to the first covenant way to keep the law. But not true in regard to the righteousness of the law of Moses itself. We did not die to that--we uphold and fulfill that.
They were, but this is not the context in which Paul is speaking about marriage in Romans 6 and 7. Let me show you:
All over in Romans 6, just before the marriage analogy, Paul explains how we were in slavery and submission to 'master' sin:
"...so that we would no longer be slaves to sin..." (Romans 6: NASB)
"...do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness.
For sin shall not be master over you ..." (Romans 6:13-14 NASB)
"...having been freed from sin..." (Romans 6:18 NASB)
"...you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness..." (Romans 6:19 NASB)
"...you were slaves of sin..." (Romans 6:20 NASB)
It's easy to see that what we were in obedient submission to was sin, not the law (it's obvious the 'husband' we were obedient to was not the law--that would have been a good thing). Before Christ we were in obedient slavery to sin, like a wife presents herself to and is obedient to, and bears fruit to, her husband and master.
When we get to the marriage analogy immediately following this, Paul says this:
"5 For while we were in the flesh (in 'marital' obedience and bondage to sin--see above), the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death." (Romans 7:5 NASB)
You see it was the law that kept us bound to the sin we were in obedient (marital) submission to. It is in that way that the law acted like a marriage license--enforcing and keeping us in our obedient relationship with 'husband' sin. We were not married to the law, nor were we married to God, bearing fruit for him. The old 'husband' we obeyed and bore fruit for was sin.
Deborah13
Member
Do you believe that the moral principle that you should feed someone who laborers for you just can into being in the Law of Moses? How about paying the laborer who works for you? Where Paul states it in Tim. I think. That's two things that are found in the Law of Moses for sure why wouldn't they be, they are good sound moral laws? I fail to see how we are fulfilling the Law of Moses, that is only two points in the Law of Moses. But they do show that by doing those things that the righteousness of God's law is being fulfilled in us.
Would you describe for me what you see as the old covenant, that has been made obsolete? What are particulars of that covenant (contract)? OT scripture would be great if you could, please.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
The literal temple, Levitical priesthood, and sacrifices.
Hebrews explains how they comprise the first covenant that has been made obsolete by the New Covenant of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice.
The methods and timetables attached to them.
Deborah13
Member
When in the OT did God make that covenant? What is the scripture in the OT that describes that covenant being made?
chessman
Member
Nice observation.
Ever noticed how Paul addresses the Gentile brothers later on and what he tells them?
Romans 11:13 - 13:8-10 (LEB) Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, ...
the one who loves someone else [#11] has fulfilled the law [#1-10].
For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery [#8],
you shall not commit murder [#6],
you shall not steal [#7],
you shall not covet [#10],”
and if there is any other commandment
[and there is, see #3, Sabbath],
are summed up in this statement: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself [#11, John 13:34].”
Love does not commit evil against a neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
the one who loves someone else [#11] has fulfilled the law [#1-10].
For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery [#8],
you shall not commit murder [#6],
you shall not steal [#7],
you shall not covet [#10],”
and if there is any other commandment
[and there is, see #3, Sabbath],
are summed up in this statement: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself [#11, John 13:34].”
Love does not commit evil against a neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I Don't know off the top of my head. The passage I'm referring to that explains the passing of the old covenant and the institution of the New Covenants, and what they are, is this:
6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7 "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law ),
9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first (Mosaic offerings and sacrifices) in order to establish the second (Christ's offering and sacrifice)
(Hebrews 10:6-9 NASB parenthesis mine)
Deborah13
Member
Heb_8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Jethro, you are a brain surgeon. Which means you are very, very smart. :yes
Exo_34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
When the covenant is made it is only the ten commandments, no tabernacle, priests, feast of Pentecost, etc.. After they went into the promised land God gave them more laws and ordinances as they went along.
Lev_26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: