What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

I don't know if you meant to do that, but grammatically, you have the obedience doing the justifying. Which we know is simply not true at all. Faith justifies all by itself apart from righteous work:

Actually this statement is exactly the opposite of what the scripture teaches.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Faith, by itself, without the work of obedience is dead.

The only thing that justifies is the obedience of faith.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually this statement is exactly the opposite of what the scripture teaches.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Faith, by itself, without the work of obedience is dead.

The only thing that justifies is the obedience of faith.


JLB

The works attached to faith do not earn a person a declaration of righteousness. That's the works gospel that Paul says can not justify. Paul proves to us from the scriptures that justification is by faith, all by itself, by explaining how Abraham was declared righteous before he was circumcised. In fact, before he did anything:

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
5 ...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 ...David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised...
(Romans 4:1-3, 5-6, 9-10 NASB)

Paul then goes on to explain how his obedience after he was justified is the SIGN of the righteousness he received by his faith apart from works, not the procurer of it:

"11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal (a sign) of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised..." (Romans 4:11 NASB parenthesis mine)

Therefore, works of righteousness are the sign of the righteousness one receives by faith all by itself, not the procurer of that righteousness. Works must be present to signify the faith that produced them as being of the quality that can justify a person. No works means you have a 'faith' that can not justify. Not because faith doesn't justify all by itself, but because the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that works. Works is the sign of the righteousness we have received by faith, apart from our works.

That's why it's important for the church to not interpret Paul's law/grace teaching improperly and say we have been released from any and all obligation to the law of Moses. Obedience, in an upholding, not an abolishing, of the law--summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'--is the expected and obligatory sign that must follow a profession of faith in order to validate one's faith as the faith that justifies all by itself. But when the church decides that faith doesn't have to work in order for it to be validated as the faith that justifies apart from works they lead many astray into a false hope.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm going to guess at exactly what you're asking here, because we know that faith in Christ upholds ALL the law of Moses (Romans 3:31 NASB). If you mean what parts of the law of Moses are we still required to literally do, the answer is the moral component of the law of Moses. That's what fulfills all of the law of Moses: obedient faith--love (Galatians 5:14 NASB).

The worship, cleanliness, and separation components of the law find their satisfactory fulfillment in the blood and body of Christ, and our obedient faith in that blood and body. For example, the Feast of Unleavened Bread is fulfilled, not abolished, when we cleanse the household of the Body of sin (1 Corinthians 5:7-8 NASB). Just an example of how love fulfills the law--all of it.

I believe that the New Covenant, salvation by grace through faith, is what establishes the law. When we receive Christ we receive Christ's law under the new covenant of grace and faith. When there is a change in the priesthood there is a change of the law. Here it is in the Law of Moses......
Num 35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
Num 35:26 But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled;
Num 35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
Num 35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.
The first judgement given by the law is only binding until the death of the high priest. When the high priest dies there is a new high priest appointed. His offense is forgiven and he gets to return to his home.

 

[JLB]

Righteousness can only be imparted through faith in God's promise of a Son.

Abraham was declared righteous through faith and was justified by obeying God when he was told to sacrifice Issac.

This is the act of obeying God, which is the only way to be justified.

This is the law of faith.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:27-31

Verse 31 does not say "faith in Christ", it says faith, referring to the law of faith.

It certainly doesn't say faith in Christ upholds all the law of Moses.

The works attached to faith do not earn a person a declaration of righteousness. That's the works gospel that Paul says can not justify.

The works [obedience] attached to faith are the only thing that makes a person right before God.

No one can be saved without obedience.

A person must obey the gospel message to be saved.

The only way a person is justified is by obedience.

Faith by itself is dead!

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:17-23


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


Without opening your mouth in obedience to the Gospel Message and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, then you will not be saved.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; Mark 16:16


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Abraham was declared righteous through faith and was justified by obeying God when he was told to sacrifice Issac.

This is the act of obeying God, which is the only way to be justified.

This is the law of faith.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:27-31

Verse 31 does not say "faith in Christ", it says faith, referring to the law of faith.

It certainly doesn't say faith in Christ upholds all the law of Moses.




The works [obedience] attached to faith are the only thing that makes a person right before God.

No one can be saved without obedience.

A person must obey the gospel message to be saved.

The only way a person is justified is by obedience.

Faith by itself is dead!

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:17-23


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


Without opening your mouth in obedience to the Gospel Message and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, then you will not be saved.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; Mark 16:16


JLB

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Where the law stirs up sin, faith in Christ stirs up works of faith.

 

[JLB]

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Where the law stirs up sin, faith in Christ stirs up works of faith.

The work of God is to believe.

We understand from James that believing by itself is also done by demons, and they fear and tremble.

Biblical believing requires obedience and a continuing to the end.

Disobedience is unbelief.

Biblically speaking.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Unbelief is Disobedience!

JLB

 

[Deborah13]

The work of God is to believe.

We understand from James that believing by itself is also done by demons, and they fear and tremble.

Biblical believing requires obedience and a continuing to the end.

Disobedience is unbelief.

Biblically speaking.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Unbelief is Disobedience!

JLB

Faith in Christ (God's work) stirs up in us the works of faith that James is talking about. The Spirit working in and through us. God's work.

 

[JLB]

Faith in Christ (God's work) stirs up in us the works of faith that James is talking about. The Spirit working in and through us. God's work.

Faith comes by hearing God.

At this point the person whom God has spoken to now has faith.

At this point it is up to the person to either obey or not.

If they follow through and obey what God has spoken to them, then there faith is declared alive, and they are right before God [accredited with righteousness] because of the work of obedience.

If they choose not to obey, then the faith they have is dead, and they are disobedient, having refused to believe/obey God.

Another way of saying this is: being led by the Spirit of God.

If God the Spirit, leads, moves upon, speaks to a person and they obey, then they have done the work of righteousness, having been obedient.

Adam was not obedient and his sin brought death upon all mankind.

Faith comes by hearing God.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe that the New Covenant, salvation by grace through faith, is what establishes the law.

And that is what Romans 3:31 says:

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)

When we receive Christ we receive Christ's law under the new covenant of grace and faith. When there is a change in the priesthood there is a change of the law. Here it is in the Law of Moses......
Num 35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
Num 35:26 But if the slayer shall at any time come without the border of the city of his refuge, whither he was fled;
Num 35:27 And the revenger of blood find him without the borders of the city of his refuge, and the revenger of blood kill the slayer; he shall not be guilty of blood:
Num 35:28 Because he should have remained in the city of his refuge until the death of the high priest: but after the death of the high priest the slayer shall return into the land of his possession.
The first judgement given by the law is only binding until the death of the high priest. When the high priest dies there is a new high priest appointed. His offense is forgiven and he gets to return to his home.

Just another example of the law of Moses being upheld, not abolished or nullified, in this New Covenant. Just upheld in the new way of the New Covenant--Christ, and faith in him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is the law of faith.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 3:27-31

Verse 31 does not say "faith in Christ", it says faith, referring to the law of faith.

It certainly doesn't say faith in Christ upholds all the law of Moses.

You are making the mistake of thinking there are two different sets of laws. He's speaking of two different principles, or rules, of how to be justified. The 'law' of works is, "I am justified by doing righteous work". The 'law' of faith is, "I am justified by faith in Jesus Christ apart from works".

The works [obedience] attached to faith are the only thing that makes a person right before God.

The ONLY thing?

If that isn't the infamous works gospel, I don't know what is.

No one can be saved without obedience.

True, but the mistake your doctrine makes is saying it is the works that do the actual securing of the declaration of righteousness. By definition, faith is not works. Faith is the surety of something you can't see or otherwise know is true (Hebrews 11:1 NASB). Works of faith are the righteous things a person does because they have faith--they are not the faith itself, they are the manifestation of faith:

"6 ...faith expressing itself through love. " (Galatians 5:6 NIV).

The only way a person is justified is by obedience.

The ONLY way? It's bad enough for a doctrine to say a person is made righteous (justified) by faith AND works, but for a doctrine to say works are the ONLY way to be justified is downright scary.

Faith by itself is dead!

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

We all know this. But this hardly has to mean the works themselves do the justifying. That is completely and totally contradictory to Paul's teaching:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

Faith has to do works, not because the works are what actually makes the person righteous, but because genuine faith acts. If faith is not acting in a person it may be because it isn't the measure of faith the person thinks it is. That's James' point. In fact, Paul and Peter also talk about confirming your faith and salvation by purposely seeking to do acts of faith. If in the process we find out we really aren't circumcised in heart at all we can then seek to secure that circumcision--that laying off of the deeds of the flesh--through a genuine and strong faith in Christ.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:17-23


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


Without opening your mouth in obedience to the Gospel Message and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, then you will not be saved.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; Mark 16:16


JLB

JLB, was Abraham justified before or after he was circumcised?

10 How then was it (righteousness) credited (to Abraham)? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but (righteousness credited to him) while uncircumcised;

Does Paul say he became righteous when he got circumcised, or does he say he signified the righteousness he already had when he got circumcised?

11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised..." (Romans 4:10-11 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JLB, how does your doctrine reconcile these two (seemingly) contradictory statements?

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness..." (Titus 3:5 NASB)

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB)

 

[JLB]

You are making the mistake of thinking there are two different sets of laws. He's speaking of two different principles, or rules, of how to be justified. The 'law' of works is, "I am justified by doing righteous work". The 'law' of faith is, "I am justified by faith in Jesus Christ apart from works".

There is the law of Moses and the works of that law, that are required of those who are in that covenant.

knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16


Then there is the law of faith , which Paul contrast's with the law of Moses -

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets...
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:20-21,27,28

The law of faith carries the same measure of "weight" as the law of Moses, in that both require obedience, as we learn from the scriptures.

One law requires that a person obey and do all the ordinances and commandments that are required by the law of Moses -

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Galatians 3:10

...to do them = obedience - Law of Moses

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

doing what God tells you to do [ex: offering Issac on the altar] = obedience - Law of faith

Same measure of weight as the law of Moses.

The difference is one is doing a set of prescribed rules that doesn't require a relationship with God, the other involves a person hearing God themselves and obeying Him.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:33-34\

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt...for they all shall know Me,

Abraham walked with God in relationship, and learned from Him and obeyed His Voice.

This is the work of the obedience of faith. This is the law of faith in action, for faith without the work of obedience is dead.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

The law is not of faith.

 

[JLB]

JLB, how does your doctrine reconcile these two (seemingly) contradictory statements?

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness..." (Titus 3:5 NASB)

"24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24 NASB)

We are saved by obeying the Gospel, not by good deeds we have done.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.Titus 3:4-8

Our Salvation comes from what Jesus Christ did on the cross. However I ask you to consider this: If Jesus Christ was not perfectly obedient to do everything His Father showed Him and spoke to Him to do, which means He was perfectly sinless, then His sacrifice would not have cleansed us of our unrighteousness.

The question is: How do we appropriate for ourselves what Jesus did at Calvary?

By faith.

We believe the Gospel.

We show show we believe by confessing Jesus Christ as our Lord, which means we repent of Satan being our lord.

We are translated out of the dominion of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son. The kingdom of God.

Now we are able to be filled with God's Spirit, and to know God and be reconciled to Him.

Do we now go and live our life in disobedience to God, and serve Satan our former lord, or do we continue to obey the Gospel, steadfast to the end.


Or I can just sum up my doctrine with a scripture.

As many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God. Romans 8:14


Some will continue steadfast to the end, some will not.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB, was Abraham justified before or after he was circumcised?

Abraham was justified every time he obeyed God whether he was circumcised or not.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Without Abraham initially obeying God, he will never get to the place where he has a son called Isaac.

This is the work of obedience of faith, which is called in another place ...from faith to faith.

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

Consider Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

Was Noah and his family saved by what God said, or what Noah did?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is the law of Moses and the works of that law, that are required of those who are in that covenant.

knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16


Then there is the law of faith , which Paul contrast's with the law of Moses -

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets...
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Romans 3:20-21,27,28

The law of faith carries the same measure of "weight" as the law of Moses, in that both require obedience, as we learn from the scriptures.

One law requires that a person obey and do all the ordinances and commandments that are required by the law of Moses -

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Galatians 3:10

...to do them = obedience - Law of Moses

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

doing what God tells you to do [ex: offering Issac on the altar] = obedience - Law of faith

Same measure of weight as the law of Moses.

The difference is one is doing a set of prescribed rules that doesn't require a relationship with God, the other involves a person hearing God themselves and obeying Him.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:33-34\

not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt...for they all shall know Me,

Abraham walked with God in relationship, and learned from Him and obeyed His Voice.

This is the work of the obedience of faith. This is the law of faith in action, for faith without the work of obedience is dead.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

The law is not of faith.

Any way you slice it this is the damnable works gospel that Paul warned us against. It's impossible to do righteous works to the extent that it makes you righteous and eligible for salvation. For starters, even if you could be perfect from this moment forward, you still have this little problem with all the sins you committed to date.

The only way to be made righteous is to have Christ's righteousness credited to your account for free through the forgiveness of those sins. And we secure that free gift of righteousness by believing that God will do it. That is the mercy that Paul says saves us, as opposed to our works of righteousness (Titus 3:5 NASB)


The fundamental problem with your doctrine--which I think is basically Catholic doctrine--is the justification that Paul and James are speaking about are not the same justification. 'Justification' has more than one meaning and application. But I will let you explain how your doctrine can have Paul saying our deeds count nothing toward justification, while James says they do.

 

[JLB]

Any way you slice it this is the damnable works gospel that Paul warned us against. It's impossible to do righteous works to the extent that it makes you righteous and eligible for salvation.

Obeying the Gospel is the only way to be saved.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:9

...on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Or I can just sum up my doctrine with a scripture.

As many as are led by the spirit of God, THESE are the sons of God. Romans 8:14


Some will continue steadfast to the end, some will not.


JLB

What you're not explaining is how this has to mean that it is our works that make us righteous (that is, justify us).

Don't forget. Clear up your doctrine's contradiction between Paul saying Abraham was righteous when he believed, not when he did work, and James' teaching that Abraham was declared righteous when he did work.

My doctrine recognizes that justification has more than one definition, and that Paul is using one, while James is using another.

So show us how 'justification' can mean the exact same thing in your doctrine and somehow still clear up the contradiction between Paul's 'justification by faith, apart from works', and James' 'justification by what you do'.

 

[JLB]

The fundamental problem with your doctrine--which I think is basically Catholic doctrine--is the justification that Paul and James are speaking about are not the same justification. 'Justification' has more than one meaning and application. But I will let you explain how your doctrine can have Paul saying our deeds count nothing toward justification, while James says they do.

I think you are really a OSAS in reality.

How do you explain to someone to continue in the faith, steadfast to the end?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Don't forget. Clear up your doctrine's contradiction between Paul saying Abraham was righteous when he believed, not when he did work, and James' teaching that Abraham was declared righteous when he did work.

There is no clean up to it.

There is either believing the scripture or not.

Now, if you have changed to being OSAS, then that would explain alot.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Obeying the Gospel is the only way to be saved.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:9

...on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The mistake your doctrine is making is saying that it is the works that actually make you righteous. But Paul says Abraham was righteous BEFORE he did any work, and that the rigtheous work he then did was the SIGN of the righteousness he had before he did any work.

Now apply this to James' teaching. He's saying righteous work must accompany a proclamation of faith because that is the necessary and expected SHOWING of the righteousness that saves all by itself.

"...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."" (James 2:20 NASB)

This shows us that he is using the word 'justify' in regard to SHOWING oneself to be righteous, not MAKING oneself righteous as Paul is doing.

It is necessary that one be justified that way in order to be saved. Faith must be seen in what one does in order for that proclamation of faith to be validated as the faith that MAKES one righteous by itself apart from works. Paul even says this when he says that Abraham's obedience was the SIGN of the rightoeusness that he had by faith all by itself apart from works:

"11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4:11 NASB)

See? His obedience is the SIGN of the righteousness he already had before he obeyed the command to be circumcised. It is necessary that obedience follow faith, but not because that obedience somehow makes you righteous, but because that is the expected and obligatory sign that shows you to have already been made righteous through faith alone.