What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

He uses the same word in Ephesians 2:15 NASB to describe the end of the temple/worship stipulations as he does in Romans 3:31 NASB to describe what did NOT happen to the law of Moses.

The end of the law of Moses that was added until the Seed should come, so as to tear down the middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile, SO THAT HIS WORD OF PROMISE TO ABRAHAM WOULD BE FULFILLED THAT SAID YOU WILL BE A FATHER TO MANY NATIONS. Genesis 17:4

...which clearly means Gentiles.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

God also declared the law of Moses to be obsolete.

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13


God is also the One Who wiped out the hand writing of requirements and nailed it to the cross, having taken it out of the way.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14

We know all about what laws did get nullified (set aside, no longer needed, etc.) by the new Covenant of faith in Christ, but what laws in the law of Moses is Paul saying do not get nullified, but rather established in the law of Moses in this New Covenant?

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)

Maybe you can list some of these laws that your doctrine says Paul is talking about so we can be sure to understand your doctrine. Use chapter and verse. That will also satisfy this forums requirements for using scripture references in answers.

 

[JLB]

We know all about what laws did get nullified (set aside, no longer needed, etc.) by the new Covenant of faith in Christ, but what laws in the law of Moses is Paul saying do not get nullified, but rather established in the law of Moses in this New Covenant?

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

Paul clearly say the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Not "part" of the law contained in ordinances.

The law that was added, has been removed from the Covenant, because the Seed has come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19


Whatever laws and commandments that Abraham kept, that he learned by walking before God, remain, unless specifically referred to by the Covenant Maker who is the Mediator of the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Mar 3:28 ¶ Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 - But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mar 3:30 - Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.​

If you understand that Jesus can forgive the breaking of any and every law except perhaps one, then you acknowledge how sin, the transgression of law (1John 3:4) has no more power.

Rom 4:13 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, wasnot to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 - For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there isno transgression.
Rom 4:16 - Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 - (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.​

This talk about laws which we must fulfill because God either hasn't, can't, or won't is simply a reflection of pre-gospel legalist vanity. It doesn't matter if you submit yourself to just some of the laws of Moses (which one's exactly?), or submit to various hypothetical laws of the Abrahamic covenant(which laws exactly?), in either case you tacitly consider yourself under law instead of Grace. Ironic considering it is our surrender and faith in Christ's work that saves, and not our work at obedience to ordinances, statutes, or laws that can never, and were never meant save, no matter how much effort we want to believe God needs us to contribute to our own salvation.

Gal 4:9 - But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 5:18 - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This talk about laws which we must fulfill because God either hasn't, can't, or won't is simply a reflection of pre-gospel legalist vanity.​

Is Paul being a 'pre-gospel legalist' in the passage below when he commands us to fulfill the law of Moses by keeping the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)?

"9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep" (Romans 13:9-11 NASB bold and underline mine)

How can it possibly be argued that he is not plainly commanding us to fulfill the law of Moses (the part that does not get nullified by faith--Romans 3:31 NASB)?

It doesn't matter if you submit yourself to just some of the laws of Moses (which one's exactly?), or submit to various hypothetical laws of the Abrahamic covenant(which laws exactly?), in either case you tacitly consider yourself under law instead of Grace.​

Since when is being obedient the equivalent of considering yourself to still be under law? Is there a passage that says when we are obedient to fulfill the law of Moses as Paul commands us to do in Romans 13:9-11 NASB that we are under law, not grace?

You misunderstand what it means to be 'under the law' probably because you come from a church that has taught us that to purposely try to be obedient is the equivalent of the works gospel that Paul says condemns a person. Can someone show us where Paul said that? It's when you sin, or when you try to be justified by keeping the law, that is when you come under the condemnation of the law. Keep reading....

Ironic considering it is our surrender and faith in Christ's work that saves, and not our work at obedience to ordinances, statutes, or laws that can never, and were never meant save, no matter how much effort we want to believe God needs us to contribute to our own salvation.​

Yes, we all know works can not save. In all my 29+ years as a Christian I've only known perhaps two Christians on and off line who did not know this. But the question is, why does purposely being obedient instantly mean you're trying to save yourself? Can't purposely being obedient to 'love your neighbor as yourself' thus fulfilling the law of Moses, not nullifying it (Romans 3:31 NASB) ever be done because we've been saved by grace apart from our works? When and how did reading or hearing words like what Paul said in Romans 3:31 NASB and then doing them equate to condemning oneself as trying to earn your own salvation?

​

Gal 4:9 - But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?​

Hearing Paul's command to 'love your neighbor as yourself' and then doing it is "turning again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage"? Really?

Isn't he rather talking about returning to the literal elements of Mosaic worship in the hope of being declared righteous by doing that? Isn't that what it means to turn again to the bondage of weak and beggarly elements? Look what he says immediately after vs. 9 that you quoted:

"9 ...how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. " (Galatians 4:9-10 NASB)

​

We see that what he's talking about is the return to trying to be justified by the literal Mosaic observances that revolve around the elements of creation (foods, days, circumcision, rests, etc.). Doing that puts you 'under the law' and it's condemnation, because no one can be justified that way--Galatians 5:3-4 NASB.

​

Gal 5:18 - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

Yes, if you are led by the Spirit of God, that is when you are not under the law. When you are led by the Spirit of God you are doing what the Spirit says to do, like when we read passages like Romans 13:8-10 NASB filled with the voice and faith of the Holy Spirit and we then do them. That is what it means to be led by the Spirit:

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." (Galatians 5:18,22-23 NASB)

There is no law that can condemn you when you are led by the Spirit, that is, when you are walking in the fruit of the Spirit. But somehow we have come to understand 'being under the law' as simply choosing to be obedient to the impulse of the Spirit within us and purposely doing, not suppressing (1 Thessalonians 5:19 NASB), what He is leading us to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:15

Paul clearly say the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Not "part" of the law contained in ordinances.

But he's plainly saying the law of Moses does NOT get nullified in the passage:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be!" (Romans 3:28,31 NASB)


You cite this passage as proof that the law of Moses in it's entirely has been nullified:

"13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity." (Ephesians 2:13-16 NASB)

But we know from the Romans 3:28-31 NASB passage that it's impossible that he was saying the entire law of Moses was nulllified by the new Covenant of faith. Because he said faith does not nullify the law of Moses.

Besides, 'Love your neighbor as yourself', 'do not murder', 'do not steal', etc., were not the dividing wall between Jew and gentile. The laws governing who could worship according to the Mosaic laws of temple worship is what divided people and which are no longer needed now that people approach God in the new way of Christ and faith in him.

 

[JLB]

But he's plainly saying the law of Moses does NOT get nullified in the passage:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be!" (Romans 3:28,31 NASB)

Again and again and again....

I have explain this to you.

The law of Moses was abolished in His flesh. Ephesians 2:14-15

... so that the middle wall of separation, dividing the Jew and Gentile could be removed, for the purpose of fulfilling His promise to Abraham that He would be a father to many nations [Gentiles].

The law of Moses was wiped out, taken out of the way being nailed to the cross. Colossians 2:14

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Romans 3:31 does not obligate Christians to keep "part" of the law of Moses, otherwise Paul would have to retract the many places that he taught the law of Moses was abolished, declared obsolete, nailed to the cross, wiped out, blotted out.

Obedience is the common weight of measure that upholds in the scales of righteousness [justice].

So by faith in Christ, we achieve the same standard of righteousness as one who obeyed all of the law.

This of course is not obligating us to keep the law of Moses, nor does it undo the removing it from the Covenant it was added to.

You have taken one verse of scripture out of context and misapplied it to Christians and tried to use this one verse which you have misunderstood, to obligate [Gentile] Christians to keep "part" of the law of Moses, and furthermore you disregard what the plain scriptures say in many different ways about Moses law being removed.

This shows those who were being pressured and persecuted, (Jews) to return to keeping the law, after coming to Christ, that they were not being disobedient to God.

I have shown you verse that clearly prove the law was removed, declared obsolete, abolished, nailed to the cross...

The laws and commandments of the covenant [Abrahamic Covenant] we as Gentiles have been grafted into, are what we are obligated to abide by today, unless directed otherwise by the Covenant Maker or His Apostles.

Some of which were seen in the law of Moses; such as the ten commandments.

On these two commandments hang all the Law [Torah] and the Prophets." Matthew 22:40


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 3:31 does not obligate Christians to keep "part" of the law of Moses, otherwise Paul would have to retract the many places that he taught the law of Moses was abolished, declared obsolete, nailed to the cross, wiped out, blotted out.

Actually, it is your doctrine that causes us to retract Paul's other statements about the law of Moses being set aside. This is what I've been showing you. If 'the law' in Romans 3:31 NASB is all of the law of Moses that is when it directly contradicts what Paul said in Ephesians 2:15 NASB. Let me demonstrate this for you:

This is how you are interpreting these two seemingly contradictory passages ('abolishing' and 'nullifying' being the same Greek word):

15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the (entire) Law of (Moses') commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man" (Ephesians 2:15 NASB parenthesis added)

31 Do we then nullify the (entire) Law (of Moses) through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the (entire) Law (of Moses). (Romans 3:31 NASB parenthesis added)

As you can see, it's impossible to interpret them this way because that causes them to be completely and utterly contradictory to each other. But my doctrine does not do that:

15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments (about separation between people groups) contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man" (Ephesians 2:15 NASB parenthesis mine)

31 Do we then nullify the Law (of Moses--'love your neighbor as yourself') through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law (of Moses 'love your neighbor as yourself' through faith). (Romans 3:31 NASB parenthesis added)

My interpretation is easily defended by the counsel of other scripture. In fact, that's how my doctrine knows what Paul is talking about in each verse.

 

[JLB]

Actually, it is your doctrine that causes us to retract Paul's other statements about the law of Moses being set aside. This is what I've been showing you. If 'the law' in Romans 3:31 NASB is all of the law of Moses that is when it directly contradicts what Paul said in Ephesians 2:15 NASB. Let me demonstrate this for you:

This is how you are interpreting these two seemingly contradictory passages ('abolishing' and 'nullifying' being the same Greek word):

15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the (entire) Law of (Moses') commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man" (Ephesians 2:15 NASB parenthesis added)

31 Do we then nullify the (entire) Law (of Moses) through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the (entire) Law (of Moses). (Romans 3:31 NASB parenthesis added)

As you can see, it's impossible to interpret them this way because that causes them to be completely and utterly contradictory to each other. But my doctrine does not do that:

15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments (about separation between people groups) contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man" (Ephesians 2:15 NASB parenthesis mine)

31 Do we then nullify the Law (of Moses--'love your neighbor as yourself') through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law (of Moses 'love your neighbor as yourself' through faith). (Romans 3:31 NASB parenthesis added)

My interpretation is easily defended by the counsel of other scripture. In fact, that's how my doctrine knows what Paul is talking about in each verse.

On the contrary.

First of all, as you can clearly see, the reference in both passages refers to "the law", which means the entire law.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31


14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace... 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:15


My doctrine teaches that both passages refer to the whole law of Moses not just part.


Jethro's Contradiction
Your doctrine has Paul contradicting himself, by saying the law refers to part of the law in one passage while referring to the whole law in another.
In other word's - Does faith in Christ uphold part of the law or the law of Moses itself?
Jethro's "part of the law" contradiction teaches - [doing part of the law of Moses = righteousness].

Scriptures says - "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Gal 3:10

My doctrine says - By faith in Christ, we achieve the same standard of righteousness as one who obeyed all of the law.

The obedience of faith and obedience to do all the law, carry the same measure of "weight", on the scales of righteousness.
That is what Paul is expressing in Romans 3:31


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where the law, the 10 commandments became a problem for man, is when they were written in stone, for the children of Israel to obey, rather than spoken directly from God's Voice, as in the case of Abraham, whereby Abraham received faith and grace from God's Voice, as well as life.

God's Word, His Voice spoken to us impart faith and Grace and life.

Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word [Rhema] that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word [Rhema] of God.

The word [Voice; Rhema] of God that imparted life and faith to Abraham, as he walked with God, was death to the children of Israel, as it was not spoken by God directly but engraved in stones.

6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 2 Corinthians 3:6-9


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First of all, as you can clearly see, the reference in both passages refers to "the law", which means the entire law.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:31


14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace... 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:15


My doctrine teaches that both passages refer to the whole law of Moses not just part.

I know your doctrine teaches that both passages refers to the whole law of Moses.
That's why your doctrine puts Paul in contradiction to himself. Look for yourself:

Your doctrine:
Ephesians 2:15--the whole law of Moses has been nullified.
Romans 3:31--the whole law of Moses is NOT nullified.​

But my doctrine does not do that. It makes the clear scriptural distinction between what in the law of Moses got laid aside, and what in the law of Moses did NOT get laid aside:

My doctrine:
Ephesians 2:15--the literal worship (separation) laws of Moses have been nullified (set aside) in this new covenant of faith in Christ.
Romans 3:31--'love your neighbor as yourself' in the law of Moses does NOT get nullified (set aside) by this new covenant of faith.​

Scriptures says - "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Gal 3:10

You only have to do all of the law of Moses in order to be justified by the law of Moses.

My doctrine says - By faith in Christ, we achieve the same standard of righteousness as one who obeyed all of the law.

The obedience of faith and obedience to do all the law, carry the same measure of "weight", on the scales of righteousness.
That is what Paul is expressing in Romans 3:31

Where does it say that in the passage?

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:28-31 NASB)

If I understand what you're trying to glean from the passage you're saying, "Do we then nullify the Law (of righteousness) through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law (of righteousness)."

If so, that's hardly an argument in favor of the righteousness of faith. That's an argument for the righteousness of law, the very thing grace appeared to do away with!

 

[Deborah13]

31 Do we then nullify the (entire) Law (of Moses) through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the (entire) Law (of Moses). (Romans 3:31 NASB parenthesis added)

31 Do we then nullify the (entire) Law (of Moses) through faith? May it never be!
"our faith" doesn't nullify any of Moses Law.
our faith cannot nullify any of God's laws.

But Jesus could!!! It was well within His authority to do that. And He only did what the Father told Him to do. By His actions in His life and in His final sacrifice, He fulfilled the old covenant, Moses' Law.
Which none of us, no matter how faithful we were/are, could ever do.

The Law of Moses is a legal document, a covenant. God spoke it and the people of Israel agreed to it. Jesus fulfilled it, brought it to completion. Deut 27:26
The New Covenant of Grace is a legal document, a covenant (first revealed as a covenant, to Abraham). The agreement is between the Father and His Son. It is an eternal covenant, both parties to it being eternal.

We see Paul teaching in Romans 7:1-4 When the first husband dies the wife is free to take a new husband..
So I see and conclude....
IF the old husband, old covenant, is not dead. We are adulteress. We have taken a second husband while the old one, is still alive. Which is exactly what the unsaved Jew believes about the saved Jew. That they are adulteress, idolaters.
When we died in Christ, were we divorcing the old husband? Still adulteress.
So if the old covenant has not been abrogated ( 1 : to abolish by authoritative action) what are we?
Is there two husbands that are alive?
Are some married to the Father and others to the Son?
We know that Christ only has one bride, correct?

 

[JLB]

Your doctrine:
Ephesians 2:15--the whole law of Moses has been nullified.
Romans 3:31--the whole law of Moses is NOT nullified.

Ephesians says the law of commandments was abolished in His flesh. The reason was to create one new man from the separated Jew and Gentile.

Now in Romans your doctrine teaches that the very law that was abolished, is now somehow required to keep by Gentiles?

Utterly ridiculous !!!

Paul is comparing the law of faith and the law of Moses, and teaches his countryman that faith upholds the law.

How does this mean Christians are now obligated to be under the law and to keep the law that was abolished.

The law of faith requires obedience, while the law required obedience when it was still in force, before it was abolished.

This is what Paul is conveying to his countryman.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

31 Do we then nullify the (entire) Law (of Moses) through faith? May it never be!
"our faith" doesn't nullify any of Moses Law.
our faith cannot nullify any of God's laws.

The new way of faith in Jesus most certainly does nullify (set aside) some of the law of Moses.

Remember, the basis for being able to set aside a literal law of Moses is the literal fulfillment of the temple/worship laws is no longer needed (Hebrews 10:1-2 NASB). The setting aside of the law of Moses does not mean it was destroyed as the church thinks. Faith in Christ makes it so you do not need the law of Moses to approach God in worship, not destroys the law of Moses. It is in that way that "faith in Christ" (Romans 3:26 NASB) does in fact set aside the law of Moses as being inapplicable to a person. People who have faith in Christ are perfect, legally speaking, before God. Perfect people don't need the Mosaic system of worship to be legally perfect before Christ (it couldn't do that anyway). That's why, and how, the law of Moses is inf act laid aside by faith in Christ.

The Law of Moses is a legal document, a covenant. God spoke it and the people of Israel agreed to it. Jesus fulfilled it, brought it to completion. Deut 27:26

The New Covenant of Grace is a legal document, a covenant (first revealed as a covenant, to Abraham). The agreement is between the Father and His Son. It is an eternal covenant, both parties to it being eternal.

The old covenant is over. There is no argument there. The problem is in thinking that because the law of Moses is no longer the covenant between God and his people that we now don't keep, uphold, or fulfill the slightest jot or tittle of it through our faith in Christ. That is the mistake that the church makes. Paul makes it crystal clear that our faith in Christ most certainly does fulfill the law of Moses (Romans 13:8-10 NASB, Galatians 5:13-14 NASB)

We see Paul teaching in Romans 7:1-4 When the first husband dies the wife is free to take a new husband..
So I see and conclude....
IF the old husband, old covenant, is not dead. We are adulteress. We have taken a second husband while the old one, is still alive.

Deborah, you are making the error of thinking that the former husband is the old covenant. No. The old husband is the sin nature. Faith in Christ crucified former husband/master 'sin nature' so that we no longer have to obey his desires like a wife has to obey her husband. He died (on the cross with Jesus), and as Paul points out, marriage ends at death, so we ain't married to him anymore, and therefore, we don't have to do what he says like a wife has to do what her husband says (yeah, I know, pretend that's how it is between man and wife ).

This is an illustration of how it actually is for the person who is in Christ. Their old husband/master relationship with sin they have, enforced by the law (Romans 7:8 NASB), ends because old man sin died, and marriage ends at death. This being true, we don't have to do what sin nature used to command us to do. So, being legally freed from the now deceased husband, the law has no more power to enforce our master/slave relationship with that dead husband, just as in an actual a marriage license has no authority to enforce a submissive master/slave relationship with a dead spouse.

Paul said the power of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56 NASB). When sin nature dies the law no longer has a sin nature to give power to. The law no longer has the power to enforce the husband/master relationship between you and sin anymore--he's dead! With sin nature deceased, the law can no longer act like the marriage license that it once used to be in your relationship with now deceased husband sin nature and be the power of husband sin over you anymore making you do what he wants.

So if the old covenant has not been abrogated ( 1 : to abolish by authoritative action) what are we?

The old covenant is gone. That is not the argument. The law of Moses is not the covenant between God and his people anymore, faith in Christ is.

The erroneous conclusion that the Protestant church has come to is that since the law is not a covenant anymore we don't keep, uphold, or fulfill even the slightest letter of the law of Moses now, but instead serve another completely different and separate law, in effect destroying the law of Moses, the very thing Jesus said he did NOT come to do (Matthew 5:17-18 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now in Romans your doctrine teaches that the very law that was abolished, is now somehow required to keep by Gentiles?

Utterly ridiculous !!!

When a person walks in their faith in Christ--that is, loves--they fulfill the law of Moses.

"faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

"he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB capitals in original)

Are you saying Paul is being utterly ridiculous by saying gentiles who love are fulfilling the law of Moses?

 

[JLB]

Deborah, you are making the error of thinking that the former husband is the old covenant. No. The old husband is the sin nature. Faith in Christ crucified former husband/master 'sin nature' so that we no longer have to obey his desires like a wife has to obey her husband. He died (on the cross with Jesus), and as Paul points out, marriage ends at death, so we ain't married to him anymore, and therefore, we don't have to do what he says like a wife has to do what her husband says (yeah, I know, pretend that's how it is between man and wife ).

When a person walks in their faith in Christ--that is, loves--they fulfill the law of Moses.

"faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

"he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10 NASB capitals in original)

Are you saying Paul is being utterly ridiculous by saying gentiles who love are fulfilling the law of Moses?

I'm saying your doctrine is ridiculous for saying Gentiles are obligated to keep the law of Moses, when the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile is the law of Commandments that divided them.

2


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm saying your doctrine is ridiculous for saying Gentiles are obligated to keep the law of Moses, when the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile is the law of Commandments that divided them.

2


JLB

Gentiles are not obligated to keep the literal laws of Moses that prevented them from joining the people of God and worshiping with them. In fact, even the Jews themselves, if they believe in Christ, are not inhibited by any law of Moses governing how and when to approach God in worship. These laws become null and void for both if they have faith in Christ, not because they have been destroyed and no longer need to be kept in that sense, but because they don't apply to people already made perfect and brought near to God through the better way of Christ, and faith in him.

It's not that the way of faith destroyed these laws and simply scoffs at them and says, "I don't need to satisfy your requirements anymore". Our faith in Christ DOES satisfy them, just not literally. The literal fulfillment of them being what got nullified (set aside as unneeded now). Let me demonstrate:

The law says no uncircumcised person, Jew or gentile, can partake of the Passover observance:

48 "But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no * uncircumcised person may eat of it. 49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:48-49 NASB)

But Paul explains here how the uncircumcised person who is circumcised in heart by the Spirit is already regarded by the Lord as being circumcised.

"26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
29 ...he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." (Romans 2:26,29 NASB)

This physically uncircumcised person who has been circumcised through faith in Christ by the Spirit does not need a literal command about circumcision to be regarded by God as circumcised and fit for fellowship with the people of God. His spiritual circumcision satisfies the Mosaic requirement for circumcision already. He does not need a literal Mosaic command to do for him what the Spirit of God has already done for him. And what the Spirit of God did for him does not destroy the Mosaic law of circumcision, it satisfies it in that God looks at this fellow who is uncircumcised in his flesh then looks at the law requiring circumcision and says, "I see no violation of law here".

 

[JLB]

When a person walks in their faith in Christ--that is, loves--they fulfill the law of Moses.

"faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)/QUOTE]

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.


Free from the law of Moses.

The law of Moses requires physical circumcision...You have become estranged from Christ,

Those who are attempting to keep the law of Moses, are estranged from Christ, their Husband.

Estranged is marriage language.

We are married to Christ, the One Who is risen from the dead.

31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

Those under the law were married to the Lord under the covenant at Sinai.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.Jeremiah 31:31-32

The embodiment of the law [The Word] became flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Gentiles are not obligated to keep the literal laws of Moses

What other law of Moses is there than the literal law of Moses?

Please show me this "other" law of Moses, from the scripture.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What other law of Moses is there than the literal law of Moses?

Please show me this "other" law of Moses, from the scripture.


JLB

Foul! You did not quote my complete thought.
I said:

"Gentiles are not obligated to keep the literal laws of Moses that prevented them from joining the people of God and worshiping with them."

Neither Jew nor gentile is under obligation to keep the literal laws of Moses that govern how and when to approach God in worship. Why? Because they are already viewed by God as being satisfied. No violation of law exists in regard to these literal laws for the person, Jew or gentile, who has faith in Christ.

Don't forget that is the other point Paul makes in the Ephesians passage about breaking down the barrier of the law--even the Jews leave behind their Jewishness and become a part of the one body of Christ when they believe, just as the gentiles leave behind their gentileness to become a part of the one new man, the body of Christ, when they believe:

"15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man" (Ephesians 2:15)