What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[JLB]

I also know it is a sin to commit adultery, idolatry, thefts, etc. Does that mean I am seeking to be justified or made righteous by not doing those things? Yeshua taught men to "sin no more" (john 5:14; 8:11). I choose to obey him and sin (transgress the law) no more, not because it makes me righteous (my righteousness comes through faith), but because it is the right thing to do.

All well and good.

It is a sin to commit adultery or lie or steal, however it's not a sin to not keep the the Sabbath according to the law of Christ.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17

and again -


5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
Romans 14:5-6


Jesus never declared it a sin to not observe the Sabbath.

His Apostle to the Gentiles teaches just the opposite.

It's a sin to murder.
It's not a sin to not observe the Sabbath.

It's a sin to lie.
It's not a sin to eat pork.

It's a sin to steal.
It's not a sin to eat shrimp.

Jesus Changed the law of Moses, because he is the mediator of the New Covenant.

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12


JLB

 

[jocor]

All well and good.

It is a sin to commit adultery or lie or steal, however it's not a sin to not keep the the Sabbath according to the law of Christ.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:16-17

The Greek word "soma" does not mean "substance". It means "body". The "body of Messiah" in Col 2:17 means the body of believers (the "church"). Notice Col.1:18 & 24 and Col.2:19, all of which teach us that the body of Messiah is the church or all true believers.

Col 2:117 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Messiah.​

Let no man outside the body of Messiah judge you in how you keep these things which are not fulfilled shadows, but shadows of things to come in Paul's future.

5

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
Romans 14:5-6

You are reading the Sabbath into this passage.

Jesus never declared it a sin to not observe the Sabbath.

He never declared it a sin to commit rape, child abuse, infanticide and bestiality to name a few. Are you prepared to say they are not sins?

His Apostle to the Gentiles teaches just the opposite.

It's a sin to murder.
It's not a sin to not observe the Sabbath.

It's a sin to lie.
It's not a sin to eat pork.

It's a sin to steal.
It's not a sin to eat shrimp.

Sin is the transgression of the Law. If you choose to abolish the Law, then you abolish the knowledge of your sin (Romans 3:20b).

Jesus Changed the law of Moses, because he is the mediator of the New Covenant.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

This concerns a change regarding which tribe the high priest must come from and it was a change that took place before Yeshua spoke those words in Matthew 5:17-19. It was changed via Yahweh's oath in Psalm 110:4.

 

[JLB]

The Greek word "soma" does not mean "substance". It means "body". The "body of Messiah" in Col 2:17 means the body of believers (the "church"). Notice Col.1:18 & 24 and Col.2:19, all of which teach us that the body of Messiah is the church or all true believers.

Col 2:117 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Messiah.
Let no man outside the body of Messiah judge you in how you keep these things which are not fulfilled shadows, but shadows of things to come in Paul's future.

Brother,

Let no one... means anyone!

The substance is Christ.
Christ is the object or substance that cast's the shadow, He himself represents the good things to come, which the shadow pointed to.


20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- Colossians 2:20

You are reading the Sabbath into this passage.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
Romans 14:5-6

...one day above another;

Is the Sabbath a day?

... for you are not under the law but under grace. Romans 6:14


Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, not Moses.

We are subject to the law of Christ, we are not under the law of Moses.

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 1 Corinthians 9:19-21

and again -

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons...But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
You observe days and months and seasons and years.Galatians 4:4-5,9-10


JLB

 

[JLB]

This concerns a change regarding which tribe the high priest must come from and it was a change that took place before Yeshua spoke those words in Matthew 5:17-19. It was changed via Yahweh's oath in Psalm 110:4.

Hebrews 7:12 was written well after Jesus died on the cross.

The law of Moses was changed, and became obsolete, nailed to the cross and has vanished away, being a shadow of the good things to come.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13

The substance of the shadow is Christ Himself.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Brother,

Let no one... means anyone!

The substance is Christ.
Christ is the object or substance that cast's the shadow, He himself represents the good things to come, which the shadow pointed to.

It would be more beneficial if you would address the points I make rather than repeating yourself over and over again. Address the word "soma". Show me where it means "substance". Do a word search for G4983 and then tell me why it was translated "body" 146 times, but "substance" none. Paul uses the word 8 times in Colossians alone to mean "body". Five of those times refer to the "church" as Messiah's body.

"No one" refers to the deceivers of verses 4, 8 and 18 who were not part of the Body of Messiah (the "church"). They were trying to impose their man-made traditions on the brethren which is why Paul wrote verse 20.

20

Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- Colossians 2:20

Here it is in context from the KJV to make it a little clearer:

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?​

"Ordinances" is from the Greek word "dogma" meaning man's ordinances, not Yahweh's. Yahweh's ordinances are called
"dikaioma." This word "dikaioma" was used in Lu.1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of Yahweh and in Heb.9:1,10 pertaining once again to Yahweh's ordinances.

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
Romans 14:5-6

...one day above another;

Is the Sabbath a day?

Paul is referring to days that were not commanded by Yahweh such a Purim, Hanukkah, particular fast days, etc., wherein man has a choice to esteem them or not. One cannot refuse to observe a day that Yahweh commanded to be observed. To do so is sin.

... for you are not under the law but under grace. Romans 6:14

In context, Romans 6:14-15; "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

What is sin? "Sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). Let's repeat this passage in Romans substituting the definition of sin for the word "sin".

"For your transgressions against the law shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we transgress the law because we are not under the law, but under grace? [Yahweh] forbid!"
​

In other words, we must not transgress the law because we are under grace. We must obey the law, especially now that the law has been firmly established through faith (Rom 3:31).

Grace exists because the law has been broken. Grace is imparted because the law exists. Look at Romans 6:1,2;

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"​

"Shall we continue to transgress the law so that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we that are dead to transgressions of the law, live any longer in transgressing the law?"
​

Paul is saying that even though grace abounds, sin still exists. That means the law still exists!

Grace doesn't replace the law. It simply removes the penalty or condemnation for broken laws.

President Bush has the power to pardon a murderer on death row. He extends unmerited grace to the murderer and sets him free. Can or should the murderer then commit murder again so that grace may abound? How do you think President Bush would feel if a murderer he set free by grace committed murder again?

Yeshua died because of our transgressions against Yahweh's Holy law. He died for our adulteries; for our Sabbath desecrations; for our thefts; for our consumption of abominable swine's flesh, etc. We cannot continue to transgress these laws because we are under grace. We are, however, expected and required to obey these laws through faith, unto righteousness.

Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant, not Moses.

I agree. The law Moses gave is to be written in our hearts under the New Covenant.

We are subject to the law of Christ,

we are not under the law of Moses.

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 1 Corinthians 9:19-21

You neglected to put, not being without law toward God in bold. Paul obeyed Yahweh's laws and Messiah's law.

and again -

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons...But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
You observe days and months and seasons and years.Galatians 4:4-5,9-10

Paul was writing to the Galatians who had been heathen worshipers of pagan deities before their conversion to Yeshua. He says in verse 8," . . .when you knew not God [Yahweh], you did service unto them which by nature are no gods." In other words they were idolaters who neither served Yahweh nor walked in His laws. They knew nothing of His commandments and laws except what they had heard from Israelites living in their city. Verse 9 states that after they were converted they began to be known of Yahweh, which prompted Paul's question, which I interpret to mean, "Why do you want to return to the way you were before you were converted? Why do you continue to observe days, months, times, and years that were ordained by pagans? Why do you wish to be slaves to the weak and beggarly elements of pagan so-called holy days?

It would be equivalent to a Muslim converting to Christianity and yet, continuing to observe Rammadan or make pilgrimages to Mecca. The holy days that the Galatians were returning to are comparable to the false holy days we have today such as Sunday, Easter, Lent, Christmas, Good Friday, Holy Thursday, Ash Wednesday, all of which were declared holy by the "mother church" in Rome and not by Yahweh. Yahweh declared in Lev 23 which days were His holy days.

Think about it; Why would Paul tell us to keep the Feast of Unleavened in I Cor.5:7,8 and then tell us not to keep any days in Gal.4:10? Why did he desire to keep the upcoming feast in Jerusalem in Acts 18:21(the Aramaic Peshitta has this verse) and then tell the Galatians that they were not permitted to keep any feasts? Why were the disciples gathered together on the day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks) in Acts 2 if that annual Sabbath had been abolished? Consider also 1 Cor.16:8; Acts 20:6,16; and Acts 27:9 (the fast was on the Day of Atonement, an annual Sabbath). Paul's custom was to obey all of Yahweh's laws because he knew the law was not made void through faith (Rom.3:31).

 

[jocor]

Hebrews 7:12 was written well after Jesus died on the cross.

The law of Moses was changed, and became obsolete, nailed to the cross and has vanished away, being a shadow of the good things to come.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13

The substance of the shadow is Christ Himself.
JLB

If you choose to take Hebrews 7:12 out of context and apply it to the entire Law of Moses rather than to the law regarding what tribe a priest could come from, I can't help you understand the truth.

 

[JLB]

Address the word "soma". Show me where it means "substance".

I did.

Colossians 2:16-17

Christ is the very object or substance that cast's the shadow.

Christ is the substance not the shadow.

It's not about the shadow, it's about CHRIST.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If you choose to take Hebrews 7:12 out of context and apply it to the entire Law of Moses rather than to the law regarding what tribe a priest could come from, I can't help you understand the truth.

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

Is there a commandment from Moses law that gives us a choice of eating anything we want?

...thus purifying all foods?"

18 so He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"
Mark 7:18-19

Jesus changed the food laws, as He is the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Is there a tribe from the children of Israel called Melchizedek?

Is there a commandment within the law of Moses that says Gentiles are part of the priesthood?

The whole entire law of Moses has vanished away, having been made obsolete by God Himself.

JLB

 

[jocor]

I did.

Colossians 2:16-17

Christ is the very object or substance that cast's the shadow.

Christ is the substance not the shadow.

It's not about the shadow, it's about CHRIST.


JLB

If Messiah is the substance that cast the shadow of the things in Col 2, then why does Paul refer to them as unfulfilled shadows?

Col 2:17 WhichG3739 areG2076 a shadowG4639 of things to come;G3195 butG1161 theG3588 bodyG4983 is of Christ.G5547​

G2076 is the present tense, not the past tense "was". G3195 means to expect or intend. Paul was expecting things to come that would fulfill the shadows. He would not say this if the thing had already come or if the shadows were already fulfilled in Messiah.

 

[jocor]

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

Is there a commandment from Moses law that gives us a choice of eating anything we want?

We cannot eat anything we want, but only that which is sanctified or set apart in the Word (1Tim 4:5). Lev 11 & De 14 are the main places in the Word where our Creator has set apart certain things to eat as food.

...thus purifying all foods?

"

18 so He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"
Mark 7:18-19

Jesus changed the food laws, as He is the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Did you even read the verse you posted? Food enters the stomach. It is later eliminated out of the body. It is "purged" out or the body is "cleansed" of the digested food. Your interpretation means the food is purified by the digestive and elimination process! In other words, you are saying human excrement is purified food!

 

[JLB]

We cannot eat anything we want, but only that which is sanctified or set apart in the Word (1Tim 4:5). Lev 11 & De 14 are the main places in the Word where our Creator has set apart certain things to eat as food.



Did you even read the verse you posted? Food enters the stomach. It is later eliminated out of the body. It is "purged" out or the body is "cleansed" of the digested food. Your interpretation means the food is purified by the digestive and elimination process! In other words, you are saying human excrement is purified food!

Did you read what Jesus said?

Food can not defile a man.

Thus purifying ALL FOODS.

No food is now forbidden to eat.

Thus changing the law of Moses.

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14

Paul a pharisee, was taught this from Jesus Himself.

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12


JLB

 

[jocor]

Did you read what Jesus said?

Food can not defile a man.

Thus purifying ALL FOODS.

No food is now forbidden to eat.

Thus changing the law of Moses.

In Mt 15, the scribes and Pharisees had seen the disciples eat bread without first washing their hands. This was contrary to their traditional beliefs. At that time, however, the disciples only ate clean food. Therefore, the context is eating clean food with unwashed hands. It has nothing to do with eating unclean animal flesh.

As a result of their question in verse 2, Yeshua rebukes their tradition and their hypocrisy and sums up his statements in Mt. 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man." This chapter has nothing to do with cleansing unclean meat. The issue was centered on tradition and outward ritual cleansing, which made them appear holy. But Yeshua wants us to have complete change of heart and mind, not of the outward appearance.

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14

Paul a pharisee, was taught this from Jesus Himself.

The word "unclean" should have been translated "common", as it is from the Greek word koinos. The margin of most good study Bibles will confirm this.

Recall what Peter said in Acts 10:14, ". . . I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." The word common in this verse is "koinos" and the word unclean is the Greek word "akathartos". Animals declared unclean by Yahweh in Lev. 11 are akathartos. However, when a clean animal becomes inedible for some reason it is called common or koinos. Paul's statement in Rom 14:14 referred to clean meat which a weak brother would consider common and therefore not eat, preferring instead to only eat herbs, (vs. 2). A pig is unclean of itself, it was created unclean. A goat that became common in the mind of a person through outside means would be considered inedible by that person. The weaker brother esteemed in his own mind that meat should not be eaten because it may have become common for some reason. It is common meat that Paul was referring to, not unclean meat.

 

[JLB]

If Messiah is the substance that cast the shadow of the things in Col 2, then why does Paul refer to them as unfulfilled shadows?

If you choose not to believe that Christ is the substance, then that is between you and the Lord Jesus.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

Jesus is the substance of the shadow.

The Passover lamb was the shadow, Jesus is the reality of which the shadow pointed to.

 

[jocor]

The Passover lamb was the shadow, Jesus is the reality of which the shadow pointed to.

Correct. He is the reality or substance of all animal sacrifices. All animal sacrifices were shadows cast by Yeshua. Holy days are not cast by Yeshua. They point to other realities. The Feast of Trumpets points to the seven trumpets of Revelation. The Feast of Tabernacles points to the millennial Kingdom. Pentecost pointed to the firstfruits of the wheat harvest (men, not Yeshua). The Feast of Unleavened Bread points to believers getting rid of the leaven of sin, hypocrisy, and false doctrine out of their lives to become like Yeshua, etc.

 

[JLB]

Correct. He is the reality or substance of all animal sacrifices. All animal sacrifices were shadows cast by Yeshua. Holy days are not cast by Yeshua. They point to other realities. The Feast of Trumpets points to the seven trumpets of Revelation. The Feast of Tabernacles points to the millennial Kingdom.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread points to believers getting rid of the leaven of sin, hypocrisy, and false doctrine out of their lives to become like Yeshua, etc.

Their is a rest to come, the 1000 year day of rest in the millennial Kingdom.

What does that have to do with you thinking it's a sin to not keep the Sabbath as prescribed in the law of Moses.

Pentecost pointed to the firstfruits of the wheat harvest (men, not Yeshua).

Christ alone is the first fruits of the Resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23

all shall be made alive...

...those who are Christ's... refers to all who are Christ's that will be made alive, at His Coming.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Their is a rest to come, the 1000 year day of rest in the millennial Kingdom.

What does that have to do with you thinking it's a sin to not keep the Sabbath as prescribed in the law of Moses.

If there is a rest to come in the millennium, doesn't that make the 1,000 year millennium the reality of the Sabbath? If so, then the shadow of the Sabbath must still remain because the reality has not yet come. Therefore, to abolish the Sabbath along with the entire Mosaic law is to abolish an unfulfilled shadow.

Christ alone is the first fruits

of the Resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23

all shall be made alive...

...those who are Christ's... refers to all who are Christ's that will be made alive, at His Coming.


JLB

Messiah is the firstfruits of the BARLEY harvest (Lev 23:10-11). The 288,000 are the firstfruits of the WHEAT harvest (Lev 23:15-17).
Messiah is the first of the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead (Ex 23:19a). There were other firstfruits offered after the "first of the firstfruits" were offered.

 

[JLB]

Messiah is the firstfruits of the BARLEY harvest (Lev 23:10-11). The 288,000 are the firstfruits of the WHEAT harvest (Lev 23:15-17).
Messiah is the first of the firstfruits of the resurrection of the dead (Ex 23:19a). There were other firstfruits offered after the "first of the firstfruits" were offered.

No sir! That's incorrect according to the word of God.

2 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23

all shall be made alive...

...those who are Christ's... refers to all who are Christ's that will be made alive, at His Coming.

The resurrection refers to the physical body that is dead [asleep], that is resurrected and is immortal and shines like the sun.

That event occurs at His Coming.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

As I understand it, Jews living outside the land of Israel were not required to keep them in Jerusalem.

Do you see this some where in the scriptures?
Deu 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
Deu 16:17 Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee.
The Lord chose were the one place would be for all the nation to come together on these feasts. We know that Paul at times during his ministry tried to be there in Jerusalem on these feasts.

They were trying to impose their man-made traditions on the brethren which is why Paul wrote verse 20.
Here it is in context from the KJV to make it a little clearer:

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?​

"Ordinances" is from the Greek word "dogma" meaning man's ordinances, not Yahweh's. Yahweh's ordinances are called
"dikaioma." This word "dikaioma" was used in Lu.1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of Yahweh and in Heb.9:1,10 pertaining once again to Yahweh's ordinances.

I think many of us have gotten the wrong idea that the word 'dogma' Always refers to man-made traditions, doctrines, ceremonies, etc. and Never to those given to men by YHVH to teach to His people.
I don't see that as being true when looking at just even on verse, unless we deny that what Paul was teaching was not from YHVH and that what the Jerusalem Council decreed was not from YHVH.
There are five times the word dogma is used in the NT. Luke 2:1 and Acts 17:7 are plainly decrees given by Caesar.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 16:4 - are decrees give by the Jerusalem Council that they received by the Holy Spirit and that Paul taught to the Gentile members of the congregation.
Act 16:4 And as they [Timothy and Paul] went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees [G1378- dogma] for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
Act 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Now we have the ones that cause the most division in how many understand what dogma is referring to man-made traditions or decrees given by YHVH.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances [G1378-dogma]; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
I believe this is speaking about the Law of Moses which was the laws given by decrees from Moses to the people. Just as the ones above were given by the Holy Spirit at the Jerusalem Council and decreed to the gentiles by the apostles. The Law of Moses is what set the nation of Israel apart from all the gentile nations on the earth. It was wall of separation just as YHVH intended them to be.
To say that these were the man-made traditions of the Pharisees (as some say) seems very odd seeing that the Pharisees were a much later addition and never spoken of in scripture until the second temple period.
Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
We as believers are one in Yeshua and it is Yeshua who sets us apart from unbelievers. Not physical circumcision, foods, clothing, ceremonies, but Yeshua Himself. In this sense I believe we can say Yeshua and His commandments are the everlasting Torah.
Now the most difficult verse of all that uses the word dogma for decrees given. I believe these verse in Col. 2 are talking about decrees that are man-made decrees and the decrees spoken by Moses to the nation of Israel.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [G1378 - dogma] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
I think I have shown that the word dogma is not used only for decrees that are man-made but also can be decrees that are spoken by holy men in accordance with the Holy Spirit and therefore, YHVH. ie. Acts 16.
There are so many different understanding of what was blotted out, even by the most learned of men so I cannot say with great confidence what this talking about specifically but I have some thoughts that might be worth considering.
Verse 13, "having forgiven you all trespasses", when was YHVH ever judging man to be trespassing,against man-made laws given by decrees. It is only YHVH's laws given by decrees that man is judge to have trespassed. So in verse 14 how can this be speaking of man-made decrees being against us? Did YHVH ever judge the Israelites by Caesar's decrees or by the king of Babylon's decrees? It's obvious that He did not when we look at Daniel's three friends refusing to worship the idol no matter what Nebuchadnezzar decreed.
How could Moses' Law be against us? Because by the very nature of the Law it is holy, just, and good and by nature we are not. Therefore, it was against us, always judging and condemning us to death but giving no relief to reconciliation with YHVH.

 

[jocor]

No sir! That's incorrect according to the word of God.

2 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23

all shall be made alive...

...those who are Christ's... refers to all who are Christ's that will be made alive, at His Coming.

The resurrection refers to the physical body that is dead [asleep], that is resurrected and is immortal and shines like the sun.

That event occurs at His Coming.


JLB

I agree that all will be made alive at his coming. He will come the second time at the 7th trumpet to resurrect the firstfruits of the dead. He will take them to heaven. He will then come back a third time in Rev 19 and resurrect the main harvest in Rev 20:4.

I also agree that the resurrection refers to dead saints being made immortal.

 

[jocor]

Do you see this some where in the scriptures?
Deu 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
Deu 16:17 Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee.
The Lord chose were the one place would be for all the nation to come together on these feasts. We know that Paul at times during his ministry tried to be there in Jerusalem on these feasts.

I don't think it is found in Scripture pertaining to that time period in Paul's life, but it would be found in Scripture pertaining to the time period after the temple is destroyed based on Yeshua's words in John 4:21-24.

I think many of us have gotten the wrong idea that the word 'dogma' Always refers to man-made traditions, doctrines, ceremonies, etc. and Never to those given to men by YHVH to teach to His people.
I don't see that as being true when looking at just even on verse, unless we deny that what Paul was teaching was not from YHVH and that what the Jerusalem Council decreed was not from YHVH.
There are five times the word dogma is used in the NT. Luke 2:1 and Acts 17:7 are plainly decrees given by Caesar.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 16:4 - are decrees give by the Jerusalem Council that they received by the Holy Spirit and that Paul taught to the Gentile members of the congregation.
Act 16:4 And as they [Timothy and Paul] went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees [G1378- dogma] for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
Act 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Now we have the ones that cause the most division in how many understand what dogma is referring to man-made traditions or decrees given by YHVH.

I don't recall saying "dogma" "always" refers to man-made commandments. I did say in post #145 that, in Col 2:20, dogma refers to man-made commandments.

Eph 2:14

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances [G1378-dogma]; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
I believe this is speaking about the Law of Moses which was the laws given by decrees from Moses to the people. Just as the ones above were given by the Holy Spirit at the Jerusalem Council and decreed to the gentiles by the apostles. The Law of Moses is what set the nation of Israel apart from all the gentile nations on the earth. It was wall of separation just as YHVH intended them to be.
To say that these were the man-made traditions of the Pharisees (as some say) seems very odd seeing that the Pharisees were a much later addition and never spoken of in scripture until the second temple period.
Deu 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

So you are saying Yahweh's holy, just and good laws created a hatred between Jew and Gentile? Not true. Any Gentile was free to become a peculiar person by joining Israel. They would then get to keep the same laws Israel kept. It was Jewish man-made laws that created the hatred. They decreed a wall be built separating the court of the Jews from the court of the Gentiles that meant death for any Gentile crossing over it. Yahweh never decreed such a law. That was the "middle wall of partition" that Paul was alluding to in Eph 2:14.

We as believers are one in Yeshua and it is Yeshua who sets us apart from unbelievers. Not physical circumcision, foods, clothing, ceremonies, but Yeshua Himself. In this sense I believe we can say Yeshua and His commandments are the everlasting Torah.

May I ask what Torah Yeshua gave that was different from the Torah Yahweh gave leading to its abolishment?

Now the most difficult verse of all that uses the word dogma for decrees given. I believe these verse in Col. 2 are talking about decrees that are man-made decrees and the decrees spoken by Moses to the nation of Israel.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [G1378 - dogma] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
I think I have shown that the word dogma is not used only for decrees that are man-made but also can be decrees that are spoken by holy men in accordance with the Holy Spirit and therefore, YHVH. ie. Acts 16.
There are so many different understanding of what was blotted out, even by the most learned of men so I cannot say with great confidence what this talking about specifically but I have some thoughts that might be worth considering.
Verse 13, "having forgiven you all trespasses", when was YHVH ever judging man to be trespassing,against man-made laws given by decrees. It is only YHVH's laws given by decrees that man is judge to have trespassed. So in verse 14 how can this be speaking of man-made decrees being against us? Did YHVH ever judge the Israelites by Caesar's decrees or by the king of Babylon's decrees? It's obvious that He did not when we look at Daniel's three friends refusing to worship the idol no matter what Nebuchadnezzar decreed.
How could Moses' Law be against us? Because by the very nature of the Law it is holy, just, and good and by nature we are not. Therefore, it was against us, always judging and condemning us to death but giving no relief to reconciliation with YHVH.

So, what you are actually saying is that Yahweh's holy, just and good laws were nailed to the cross?? The Greek construction shows that the "handwriting" was nailed, not the ordinances. The handwriting or, in Greek, the "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt. Whenever a man sins against Yahweh his sin is imputed against him (Rom.4:7,8). When men exalt the traditions of men over the commandments of Yahweh, as the Pharisees did in Mt 15 for example, they sin against Yahweh. The Messiah became sin for us and when He was nailed to the tree so were the sins that were imputed against us. Yahweh's holy ordinances were not nailed to the tree, the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence was nailed to the tree. That is why Paul said the Colossians were "dead in your sins" in verse 13. The principalities and powers of verse 15 caused the people to sin by their man-made laws but Messiah was victorious over them. Who do you believe are those principalities and powers mentioned in verse 15? Surely not Yahweh and Moses.