What Gifts from God are revocable?

[chessman]

Does this mean the heavenly gift was revoked? No, it means the heavenly gift was conditional.

There is no conditional (if) in the passage.

Hebrews 6:4-5 For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and become sharers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the coming age,​

The gift (the Word) in Heb 6 was "tasted", not eaten/consumed:

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” ​

Isaiah 28:13 And to them the word of Yahweh will be blah-blah upon blah-blah blah-blah upon blah-blah gah-gah upon gah-gah gah-gah upon gah-gah, a little here, a little there, so that they may go and stumble backward and be broken and ensnared and captured.​

 

[gr8grace3]

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This is EXACTLY what is happening for those who have such a hard time with eternal security.

A believer who thinks salvation can be lost......has fallen away.

They are always trying to be renewed again or keep themselves saved by their OWN doing.

They are working in futility, they are saved and saved forever.......It is impossible for them to keep working for their salvation.......they crucify Him again and put Him to OPEN shame.

He died ONCE for us. He saved us ONCE when we believed......to think otherwise is to crucify Him again and put Him to OPEN shame.


And the context of the passage was believing Jews Going BACK to their animal sacrifice for their sins. In todays world we have believers going back to their good works and good lifestyle for their salvation.........and putting Christ and His work to open shame.
​

 

[Runner]

This is EXACTLY what is happening for those who have such a hard time with eternal security.

A believer who thinks salvation can be lost......has fallen away.

They are always trying to be renewed again or keep themselves saved by their OWN doing.

They are working in futility, they are saved and saved forever.......It is impossible for them to keep working for their salvation.......they crucify Him again and put Him to OPEN shame.

He died ONCE for us. He saved us ONCE when we believed......to think otherwise is to crucify Him again and put Him to OPEN shame.


And the context of the passage was believing Jews Going BACK to their animal sacrifice for their sins. In todays world we have believers going back to their good works and good lifestyle for their salvation.........and putting Christ and His work to open shame.
​

LOL! So it is a OSAS thread in disguise! I love it - I'm not going to get caught up in it, but I love it.

How do you "fall away" unless you were once "part" of something? You don't fall off a bus unless you are on the bus to start with. Those whom the verse describes as having fallen away had been "partakers of the Holy Spirit." By OSAS reasoning, they should not have "fallen away" even if they erroneously started thinking their salvation could be lost. I think you're trying to get way too much mileage out of what is clearly an OSNAS verse.

Again, those who hold the OSNAS position do not believe salvation can be "lost." They believe that the process of salvation commences at a moment in time when they first believe and repent, that "belief" is an ongoing process, and that salvation "vests" when the act of belief is completed.

To keep trying to revive the same debate this many times by starting this many different threads seems to me almost masochistic. We understand: You are an OSAS fanatic. Most Christians are not. Leave it at that.

 

[JLB]

What you call 'lexicon gymnastics' is called Bible Study by Bible students.

No it's just a means to take the plain straight-forward scriptures and bend them to your unbiblical doctrine.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8


Faith is God's gift to us, that comes when He speaks to us.

Faith is the very substance of salvation which you claim is a gift.

Why would the substance of the salvation we are hoping for be any less a gift than the salvation itself?



JLB

 

[JLB]

What you call 'lexicon gymnastics' is called Bible Study by Bible students.


No faith is not what the gift is.


Nor is salvation by Grace through faith. It's a gift.


Salvation by Grace through Faith came to us as a gift of God. Which is why we are His creation.

No scripture just opinion. :drool

 

[JLB]

NICE Chessman. The neuter gender refers back to grace, faith,salvation as ALL gifts.

Prove your opinion with scripture.

Until you do, it's just opinion, which is all OSAS is, man's doctrine propped up by man's opinion.

 

[JLB]

NICE Chessman. The neuter gender refers back to grace, faith,salvation as ALL gifts.

People get hung up on the 'faith' aspect as being a gift. It is a gift, because the Holy Spirit makes our personal volition faith( hardly any faith at all) effectual for salvation. Our personal faith would NEVER save us if it were not for the Holy Spirit making it effectual.

2 Cor 6:2~~New American Standard Bible
for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "--

I'm still waiting for you to post the scripture that uses the word "revoked".

 

[JLB]

There is no conditional (if) in the passage.

Hebrews 6:4-5 For it is impossible concerning those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and become sharers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the coming age,​

The gift (the Word) in Heb 6 was "tasted", not eaten/consumed:

John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” ​

Isaiah 28:13 And to them the word of Yahweh will be blah-blah upon blah-blah blah-blah upon blah-blah gah-gah upon gah-gah gah-gah upon gah-gah, a little here, a little there, so that they may go and stumble backward and be broken and ensnared and captured.​

Wrong again Chessman!


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

• if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance

This refers to born again believers who have partaken of the Holy Spirit.


How do you depart or fall away from something you never experienced.

Taste here means to eat; experience.

Strong's G1089 - geuomai

1. 
   
   
   • to taste, to try the flavour of
   • to taste
     1. i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
        
        
     2. to feel, make trial of, experience
   • to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

JLB

 

[atpollard]

Can anyone name a gift from God, that He has given to an individual that is revocable?.

God gave Adam the Garden of Eden ... complete with access to the tree of Life.
Adam sinned and God revoked the gift.

[Sorry, I don't want to play the OSAS/OSNAS debate game.]

 

[atpollard]

I'm still waiting for you to post the scripture that uses the word "revoked".

Here are three:

Esther 8:8 “Now you write to the Jews as you see fit, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's signet ring; for a decree which is written in the name of the king and sealed with the king's signet ring may not be revoked.”

Daniel 6:8 “Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document so that it may not be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.”

Daniel 6:12 Then they approached and spoke before the king about the king's injunction, “Did you not sign an injunction that any man who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, is to be cast into the lions' den?” The king replied, “The statement is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.”

 

[gr8grace3]

God gave Adam the Garden of Eden ... complete with access to the tree of Life.
Adam sinned and God revoked the gift.

[Sorry, I don't want to play the OSAS/OSNAS debate game.]

This thread is not eternal security But it is his truth ..........John 10:28.

So James was incorrect? God does deviate and shifts from the Gifts He Gives?

 

[gr8grace3]

LOL! So it is a OSAS thread in disguise! I love it - I'm not going to get caught up in it, but I love it.

How do you "fall away" unless you were once "part" of something? You don't fall off a bus unless you are on the bus to start with. Those whom the verse describes as having fallen away had been "partakers of the Holy Spirit." By OSAS reasoning, they should not have "fallen away" even if they erroneously started thinking their salvation could be lost. I think you're trying to get way too much mileage out of what is clearly an OSNAS verse.

Again, those who hold the OSNAS position do not believe salvation can be "lost." They believe that the process of salvation commences at a moment in time when they first believe and repent, that "belief" is an ongoing process, and that salvation "vests" when the act of belief is completed.

To keep trying to revive the same debate this many times by starting this many different threads seems to me almost masochistic. We understand: You are an OSAS fanatic. Most Christians are not. Leave it at that.

I guess you didn't read my post......You Just read it with your preconceived ideas and taught responses.

The verses in question ARE believers, born-again people. They fall away from faith alone in Christ alone and start to save themselves all over again......but it is a work of futility, they ARE saved.......they enter the kingdom, but they are LEAST in it.

 

[gr8grace3]

Again, those who hold the OSNAS position do not believe salvation can be "lost." They believe that the process of salvation commences at a moment in time when they first believe and repent, that "belief" is an ongoing process, and that salvation "vests" when the act of belief is completed.

Seriously, take a very close look at this statement. This is exactly what reformed/calvin theology says. Reformed theology just says it a wee bit different.........you just lost the salvation you THOUGHT you had if YOU don't persevere.

Eternal security is the Lord Jesus Christ PRESERVING His born-again children.

 

[gr8grace3]

And for the record........this thread is about using scripture to prove that God deviates or shifts on His gifts to us.......but it seems loss of salvation believers want to derail and make it about eternal security.

Not one person has exegeted the James verse I provided to make it say," there is variation and there is shifting shadow in Gods Gifts to us."

 

[Edward]

Just opinions Edward.

But I posted a scripture From James to show that God does not change His mind about the Good gifts He gives from above.

We have SPECIFIC verses that tell us that God does not revoke His good gifts from above..........but we have people trying to give examples of God revoking His gifts.

Can you please break down(exegete) the James verse I posted and explain that there is variation and a shifting shadow in God and His gifts to us? James seems to be saying the EXACT opposite.

New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

Sure Brother. It means for those who abide in Him. Then it is irrevocable. Then no one can snatch you from His hand.

 

[Edward]

He gave them a bloody covering(HIS CROSS) after they tried,in vain,to make their own covering(religion and working for salvation.)

The animal skins point to HIS CROSS.

You've heard of the mountain of God? Well the cross is at the foot of the mountain Brother. After we visit the cross and receive Him, then we are to arise and shine (Isaiah 60:1) and mature in the Lord...and begin to climb the mountain.

 

[chessman]

Taste here means to eat;

Taste means eat???
Do any translations use eat?

Again, illegitimate totality transfer of all possible meanings of a word rather than the one intended is fallacious. By the way, you referenced the possibilities of a word from a lexicon. Which you earlier called 'lexicon gymnastics'. Quite hypocritical.

Wrong again Chessman!

As my post indicates, I was referring to verses 4-5, not 6.

As for the conjunction that beings verse 6, the word is the same word (kai) as beings verse 5 and never means "if".

Transliteration: kai
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee)
Short Definition: and, even, also, namely
Definition: and, even, also, namely.
HELPS Word-studies

2532 kaí (the most common NT conjunction, used over 9,000 times) – and(also), very often, moreover, even, indeed (the context determines the exact sense).

[After 2532 (kaí), the most common word in the Greek NT is the definite article ("the"). 2532 (kaí) is never adversative, i.e. it never means "however" ("but") – unlike the principal conjunction (waw) in OT Hebrew (G. Archer).]​

Hebrews 6:4-6 (DLNT) For it is impossible to renew again to repentance the ones having once been enlightened and having tasted the heavenly gift, and having been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted the good word of God and the powers of the coming age, and having fallen-away— crucifying-again for themselves the Son of God, and publicly-disgracing Him. ​

The conjunction "if" always means "if". "If" IS the conditional word. It's a different word that DOES NOT appear in verses 4- 6:

Transliteration: ean
Phonetic Spelling: (eh-an')
Short Definition: if
Definition: if.
HELPS Word-studies​

1437 eán (a conjunction, derived from 1487 /ei, "if" and 302 /án, a particle showing a statement is conditional) – if, referring to a condition extending to its "spin-off" possibilities – i.e. that happen ifthe condition is actualized or is valid.​

 

[chessman]

Why would the substance of the salvation we are hoping for be any less a gift than the salvation itself?

I didn't say faith was any less of a gift than the substance of salvation. You're not reading/understanding the NT Greek Scholar's point nor mine.
If you'd actually consider the slightest possibility that you just might (just maybe) be wrong on your grammatical claim (and you are as shown previously) about verse 8, then you could see his conclusion from the Greek grammar is obviously what Paul means because of the larger context of the letter (and other NT Texts) and for goodness sake, the very next verse. Not just because of the gender matching required by NT Greek grammar.

It is the gift of God— 9 not of works, in order that no one may boast.
​

Or simply read Paul's reason for saying what he just said in 8-9:

10 For we are His workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared-beforehand in order that we might walk in them.11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh— the ones being called “the uncircumcised” by the one being called “the circumcised” (one done-by-human-hands in the flesh)— 12 that you were at that time without Christ, having been excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without-God in the world.​

What's the "gift" is this whole New Covenant (salvation by grace through faith, without need of our works because we have His workmanship) as opposed to the old covenant (done by-human hands in the flesh like circumcision and sacrificial offerings, etc. over and over and over (sin, work to cleanse yourself, sin work to cleanse yourself, repeat, ...).

But then again, some people simply like to boast about their workmanship versus His workmanship. Old habits die hard.
I say out with the old, in with the new gift. I appreciate my gift of God, His workmanship.

 

[ezra]

"How many OSAS threads can be started on one forum?"

last one was 31 pages long ..how many would you like to see ? i find it sad some would rather argue over osas instead of post about our walk Ephesians 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

 

[ezra]

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: is that nuter gender or just gender . would the person who has the truth led by the spirit please stand up