What Gifts from God are revocable?

[chessman]

Genesis 15:1-2, 7, 13-14, 16 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.” And he said to Abram, “You must surely know that your descendants shall be as aliens in a land not their own. And they shall serve them and they shall oppress them four hundred years. And also the nation that they serve I will judge. Then afterward they shall go out with great possessions. And the fourth generation shall return here, for the guilt of the Amorites is not yet complete.” ​

If the underlined had not occurred, God indeed would have revoked what was given to Abraham.

1 Chronicles 15:29 And when the ark of the covenant of Yahweh came into the city of David, ... ​

The above chronology foreshadowed what occurred below:

Matthew 1:2, 17-18 Abraham fathered Isaac, and Isaac fathered Jacob, and Jacob fathered Judah and his brothers, ...So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation of Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the deportation of Babylon to the Christ are fourteen generations. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: His mother Mary having been promised-in-marriage to Joseph, before they came-together she was found having a child in the womb by the Holy Spirit.
​

Which was all declared to occure here:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put hostility between you and between the woman, and between your offspring and between her offspring; he will strike you on the head, and you will strike him on the heel.”​

 

[WIP]

Where is the Garden of Eden described or referred to as a gift to A & E?

You mentioned "specific gifts", so I ask for a specific reference about the Garden being a gift to them.

It seems life is a pretty significant gift. Does God actually have to declare in writing that it was a gift? By definition a gift is something granted that was undeserved and mankind never deserved to ever receive life in any form.

 

[Edward]

It seems life is a pretty significant gift. Does God actually have to declare in writing that it was a gift? By definition a gift is something granted that was undeserved and mankind never deserved to ever receive life in any form.

Absolutely Brother. It don't take a rocket scientist to see the gift in life.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Do they have it?

Yes. In fact, God promised them punishment for disobedience in the Mosaic Covenant. All other Covenants are "perpetual". Only the Mosaic Covenant is conditional (meaning, Israel was required to be obedient, to receive God's promises). The Mosaic Covenant is formed In Exodus chapters 19 thru 20. The covenant starts out with, "if YOU will OBEY my voice and KEEP my covenant". The Covenant was conditional on Israel's obedience. All other covenants, God says only, ("I will"). So, God kept His promise on a chastisement for Israel for their disobedience. But their punishment was foreordained and He kept that covenant promise. But even better, He gives them a new and better Covenant. (Jer. 31:31-33) (Jer. 11:7) (Heb. 8:9)

 

[JLB]

It seems life is a pretty significant gift. Does God actually have to declare in writing that it was a gift? By definition a gift is something granted that was undeserved and mankind never deserved to ever receive life in any form.

Amen sir!

 

[JLB]

Only the Mosaic Covenant is conditional (meaning, Israel was required to be obedient, to receive God's promises).

Abraham also had the condition to be obedient in order to receive the promises.

We who are of the faith of Abraham also have the condition of obedience in order to receive the promises.

Obedience is the foundational requirement in the law of faith, as well as righteousness and love.

I just don't understand how you could say something like... Only the Mosaic Covenant is conditional (meaning, Israel was required to be obedient, to receive God's promises).


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Allright Brother, the word gift isn't in there.

Correct.

But uh, what makes you think that it wasn't?

Because the Garden of Eden wasn't called that.

Life was a gift.

Does the Bible call life a gift?

Daily fellowship with the Lord was a gift, dominion over the Earth was a gift...how could you not see that?

What I don't see is that any of these are described as a gift in Scripture. How could anyone not see that?

And...when they disobeyed...it was revoked.

What Scripture describes the removal of any of what you've called a gift as being revoked?

Most of it. No more fellowship, no more dominion, and then they had to work and toil for a living and their sustenance.

I'm not seeing any Scripture describe any of these things as gifts, nor that God revokes them.

The word gift not being in there does not mean they were not gifts. :wink

We must let Scripture speak for itself. What Scripture calls or describes as a gift, is a gift. We cannot take it upon ourselves to decide these various things as gifts and call them that, just because it "seems logical" to do so.

This is known as assumption. Assuming what is a gift. This is where we get into trouble when reading Scripture.

 

[Douglas Summers]

It seems life is a pretty significant gift. Does God actually have to declare in writing that it was a gift? By definition a gift is something granted that was undeserved and mankind never deserved to ever receive life in any form.

Hi WIP, I would think that everything God created and gave to man would be a gift, (John 1:3-4), for man did nothing to receive it. The only thing man received that he earned was punishment and death for his trashing what God gave him, with the warning from God, with much grace of the consequences of their disobedience. (Luke 13:34)

 

[FreeGrace]

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of GodEphesians 2:8.

No gift of salvation mentioned in Ephesians 2:8.

Actually, no gift of faith mentioned in Eph 2:8. The "it is a gift" refers back to what we have through grace; salvation.

The gift mentioned is faith.

A claim made does not mean a fact given.

The "it" is not in the original scriptures as indicated by the italics.

Even if it was, it refers back to the previous mentioned subject which is faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

No gift of salvation mentioned in Ephesians 2:8

The gift mentioned is faith.

All just assumption.

If I give a gift to my son, and have to take it back, I can certainly do so, even if I don't regret it.

If one takes back a gift, that just demonstrates a regret.

The bottom line is, irrevocable doesn't mean it in the way you are trying to uses it, since God certainly does remove what He gives us that leads to salvation.

I will uphold the very common translation used by actual Greek scholars, who study secular uses of the Koine Greek in order to understand how to render the words used in Scripture. No offense.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Absolutely Brother. It don't take a rocket scientist to see the gift in life.

hello Edward, dirtfarmer here

I am no rocket scientist. I don't see life as a gift of God but a creation of God. Man as created by God was created dying. How did I come to understand this? Well, in 1 Corinthians 15:50 it is stated: " Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God: neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

With this scripture truth in mind, Adam was created "flesh and blood" so that means that he was corruptible, created with an end to physical life. This is further attested to by Genesis 3:22: " And the LORD God said, behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: now lest he put forth his hand, " and take also of the tree of life," and take and eat, live for ever." When Adam ate of the fruit, he immediately died Spiritually, but he continued to live physically, so it was Spiritual death that was the penalty for eating the fruit.

We see this truth in the resurrected Christ, he had a body of flesh and bone, not a body of flesh and blood and Spirit was the life of that body.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes the "gift" of covenant relationship was removed, as she so plainly gave you the scripture.

Couldn't help but notice the quote marks around the word 'gift'. Once more, this is just more assumption that the covenant relatihship was a gift. That's an opinion, sure. But where in Scripture do we EVER find any reference to the covenant relationship as a gift?

We don't. Simple as that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just throwing this out there and not in a position to argue one way or another but what about the gift of life to Adam and Eve?

“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17 NKJV

Only if the Bible describes life as a gift can we then consider that God "revokes" that gift.

We must recall that not everything given is a gift.

When one person gives grief to another person, is that a gift?
When a parent tells a child "don't give me that lip", are they referring to a gift from their child?

Of course not.

What I'm seeing in this thread is describing things that have been given and assuming they are gifts.

Assuming is what leads to error.

 

[FreeGrace]

It seems life is a pretty significant gift.

I'm trying to stick with what Scripture describes as a gift, not what "seems like" a gift, significant or not.

When God gives life, He in fact creates it. Where there was nothing, now, there is life. So how can that be described as a gift?

One has to be in existence in order to be given something. Creating life by the word of His mouth, He is giving nothing to someone. He is in fact creating someone.

Did Adam thank God for creating him? Like, "thanks, I needed that." No, until he was created, there was nothing to need. He didn't exist.

So I challenge those who want to pin the label of "gift" on many things that aren't actually gifts.

Life is not a gift. It is a creation. A gift is something given to someone. There has to be a "someone" in existence in order to be given a gift.

Since there is no entity until God creates a life, life cannot be a gift. Nothing existed before the life was created. A gift is given to an entity.

Does God actually have to declare in writing that it was a gift?

That's kinda how understanding Scripture works. Take things at face value. Unless something is described or called a gift, let's not assume so much.

For example, salvation is described as a gift in Eph 2:8. Eternal life is described as a gift in Rom 6:23. The indwelling Holy Spirit is described as a gift throughout Acts, esp in ch 10. Spiritual gifts are just that; gifts. Justification is described as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17.

By definition a gift is something granted that was undeserved and mankind never deserved to ever receive life in any form.

Actually, mankind didn't exist until God created mankind. Mankind would have had to exist in order to receive something undeserved.

This is the problem with assuming more than is warranted.

 

[FreeGrace]

Absolutely Brother. It don't take a rocket scientist to see the gift in life.

See post #73.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I just don't understand how you could say something like... Only the Mosaic Covenant is conditional (meaning, Israel was required to be obedient, to receive God's promises).

The Abrahamic Covenant starts at (Gen. 12: 1-3) God, says ("I Will") Not, "if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant" as in (Exodus 9:5),Israel was foreordained through Abraham. Israel does not exist because of Abraham's faith, but because of Gods promise.

 

[for_his_glory]

Gods gifts are never revoked, Romans 11:29, but that we come in the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love, Ephesians 4:13-16.

 

[Edward]

That's kinda how understanding Scripture works. Take things at face value. Unless something is described or called a gift, let's not assume so much.

For example, salvation is described as a gift in Eph 2:8. Eternal life is described as a gift in Rom 6:23. The indwelling Holy Spirit is described as a gift throughout Acts, esp in ch 10. Spiritual gifts are just that; gifts. Justification is described as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17.

Actually, mankind didn't exist until God created mankind. Mankind would have had to exist in order to receive something undeserved.

This is the problem with assuming more than is warranted.

No that's where you're wrong Brother. You're trying to look at this with the logical carnal mind and that is a mistake. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and not seeing life as a gift at the face value of what God wrote is a mistake. God is not the author of confusion. We do have to read between the lines somewhat to get the actual message...and the message is life. Until man disobeyed. Then he died.

And what makes you think that we did not live before being born on Earth? Is it not written, that He knew us before he knot us in the womb? So we stood there talking with Him before being born here. And that's all there is to it. I thank God every day for a new day and the life I have. If you don't, then you're being short-sighted Brother.

And Adam & Eve existed for awhile before the fall in the Garden, too...think about that.

 

[JLB]

Couldn't help but notice the quote marks around the word 'gift'. Once more, this is just more assumption that the covenant relatihship was a gift. That's an opinion, sure. But where in Scripture do we EVER find any reference to the covenant relationship as a gift?

We don't. Simple as that.

Is Covenant Relationship something you earn?


JLB

 

[chessman]

The gift mentioned is faith

Which is a demonstrably false claim. Gift (neuter) and faith (feminine) are not even the same genders.

Greek syntax matches gender of pronouns to the antecedent it refers to. So if "this" referred to either grace or faith individually, it should be in the feminine gender—and there is no reason it would not have been had such been the intention. Such a form would be ambiguous, since it could refer to either grace or faith, but likely be referring to the nearest referent, and thus faith.​

However, the neuter gender is used for the pronoun. This is the common gender used when a phrase or clause is the antecedent. So "this" refers to the whole previous clause, "By grace ye have been saved through faith."​

So this fact expressed by the clause, that only by grace through faith have any who are saved entered into that state of salvation, is a fact that is not something that comes about from oneself, not "of you." Rather, this is an "of God" thing, it is "the gift" of God that such is the way of salvation, by grace through faith.​

Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996)​

 

[chessman]

It seems life is a pretty significant gift.

1 Peter 1:24-25 For “all flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the grass. The grass withers and the flower falls off, but the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word that has been proclaimed to you. ​

Does God actually have to declare in writing that it was a gift?

Always helpful in the Theology forum.