What Gifts from God are revocable?

[FreeGrace]

No that's where you're wrong Brother.

Opinion noted.

You're trying to look at this with the logical carnal mind and that is a mistake.

Wrong. I'm looking at this from what Scripture describes as a gift. Logical AND biblical. Nothing carnal in that.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and not seeing life as a gift at the face value of what God wrote is a mistake.

I've already explained EXACTLY WHY life itself cannot be called a gift. Please review the post and then tell me exactly why I'm wrong. It's post #73.

God is not the author of confusion.

Surely not. But those who want to describe a number of things as gifts when the Bible doesn't seems rather confused.

We do have to read between the lines somewhat to get the actual message...and the message is life.

Oh, I see. The "hidden message" that God apparently didn't want everyone to get. Just a chosen few, huh?

And what makes you think that we did not live before being born on Earth?

What in the world (or OUT of the world) is this about? Is this a suggestion or hint that we existed somewhere else before being born on this planet? That's what it seems to me. Please be more clear and specific.

Is it not written, that He knew us before he knot us in the womb?

Pretty clear to me. That verse speaks of God's omniscience; knowing that we WOULD exist someday (and He always knew exactly what day, from Acts 17:26).

So we stood there talking with Him before being born here.

And what did you say to Him? You know, before you were born and all. (where is the eye rolling icon when you need one?)

And that's all there is to it. I thank God every day for a new day and the life I have. If you don't, then you're being short-sighted Brother.

Where does the Bible describe regeneration as a gift? Just curious. Or is this just some more reading between the lines? ;)

And Adam & Eve existed for awhile before the fall in the Garden, too...think about that.

Yep. Knew that. But how does that figure into your opinions from reading between all those lines?

 

[FreeGrace]

Is Covenant Relationship something you earn?
JLB

No, but so what? If someone is giving you a hard time, is that a gift to you?

 

[FreeGrace]

Which is a demonstrably false claim. Gift (neuter) and faith (feminine) are not even the same genders.

Greek syntax matches gender of pronouns to the antecedent it refers to. So if "this" referred to either grace or faith individually, it should be in the feminine gender—and there is no reason it would not have been had such been the intention. Such a form would be ambiguous, since it could refer to either grace or faith, but likely be referring to the nearest referent, and thus faith.​

However, the neuter gender is used for the pronoun. This is the common gender used when a phrase or clause is the antecedent. So "this" refers to the whole previous clause, "By grace ye have been saved through faith."​

So this fact expressed by the clause, that only by grace through faith have any who are saved entered into that state of salvation, is a fact that is not something that comes about from oneself, not "of you." Rather, this is an "of God" thing, it is "the gift" of God that such is the way of salvation, by grace through faith.​

Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996)​

​

Thanks for the helpful info, chessman. What page is that on? I never can remember the genders in Eph 2:8. I need to bookmark my copy of Daniel Wallace's book.

 

[chessman]

What page is that on?

From His discussion on pages 333-335

Parsing at:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/1.htm

 

[Edward]

Is Covenant Relationship something you earn?


JLB

Bingo, Brother. Covenant. Most believers have no clue about covenant. When we are born again we enter into a blood covenant with Him. A study/thread on covenant would be an excellent thread.

 

[Edward]

Wrong. I'm looking at this from what Scripture describes as a gift. Logical AND biblical. Nothing carnal in that.

So because scripture doesn't say "life is a gift" then it isn't?

I've already explained EXACTLY WHY life itself cannot be called a gift. Please review the post and then tell me exactly why I'm wrong. It's post #73.

Give me a few for this one...

Oh, I see. The "hidden message" that God apparently didn't want everyone to get. Just a chosen few, huh?

No no no...It is just...a given that life is a gift. Anyone, everyone should be able to comprehend this.

What in the world (or OUT of the world) is this about? Is this a suggestion or hint that we existed somewhere else before being born on this planet? That's what it seems to me. Please be more clear and specific.

You got it Brother:
Psalm 71:6
6 Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother's womb.
My praise is continually of you.../

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”.../

Galatians 1:15
15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born and who called me by his grace,.../

Is that specific enough for you? How could He know us before we were born...unless we were there talking with Him? Our memory of this is obviously being restrained from us here on Earth. Eh? that we existed somewhere else before being born on this planet is exactly what I meant.

Pretty clear to me. That verse speaks of God's omniscience; knowing that we WOULD exist someday (and He always knew exactly what day, from Acts 17:26).

And what did you say to Him? You know, before you were born and all. (where is the eye rolling icon when you need one?)

There it is for you Brother.

And I already told you that we obviously have had our memory restrained from remembering that what we may have said to Him before we were born. Personally I suspect that we even chose and/or agreed to being born in the family and circumstance that we were born into...but that is a personal conjecture that I do not offer as dogma.

Where does the Bible describe regeneration as a gift? Just curious. Or is this just some more reading between the lines? ;)

I didn't say anything about regeneration. I just said that I thank God for each new day. For life.
Though scripture does speak of transformation, when the Lord returns.

Yep. Knew that. But how does that figure into your opinions from reading between all those lines?

Easy. Before the fall, man had many more privileges than after the fall. We had not died spiritually yet. So the gift of life in the Garden, with the privilege of daily fellowship with our Lord...was absolutely a gift to us. Until we disobeyed. Then it was taken away from us.
No rocket science there. Lol.

 

[JLB]

No, but so what? If someone is giving you a hard time, is that a gift to you?

I think this is where most of us differ with your doctrine.

We are in a covenant relationship with Christ, through faith in Him.

We are joined to Him as a man and woman are joined through covenant relationship.

Your whole theory is based on the fact that it's impossible to become divorced, or become disconnected from Christ, to whom we are joined.

5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

This is illustrated in many ways in scripture by the Lord Himself, using the natural things of this earth, earthly things, to reveal a spiritual or heavenly reality.


As long as we are joined to the Lord, we are joined to the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.


If we become disconnected from Him, then we no longer are joined to the life of His Spirit; The Spirit of eternal life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

You seem to dismiss this an an unimportant "agricultural metaphor", when Jesus is teaching us a life or death principle.


Just as a branch is dependent upon the Vine that it is connected to, we also are dependent on Christ to provide us eternal life, that is only found in Him.

Apart from, and disconnected from Him, we do not have eternal life.

This connection to Him comes from believing.


I have asked many times for you to provide the scripture that teaches us, a person who believes for a while, then does not believe any longer, still has eternal life.


No one who is separated or cut off from Christ has eternal life in and of themselves.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Where is the scripture that shows us, those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Which is a demonstrably false claim. Gift (neuter) and faith (feminine) are not even the same genders.

Greek syntax matches gender of pronouns to the antecedent it refers to. So if "this" referred to either grace or faith individually, it should be in the feminine gender—and there is no reason it would not have been had such been the intention. Such a form would be ambiguous, since it could refer to either grace or faith, but likely be referring to the nearest referent, and thus faith.​

However, the neuter gender is used for the pronoun. This is the common gender used when a phrase or clause is the antecedent. So "this" refers to the whole previous clause, "By grace ye have been saved through faith."​

So this fact expressed by the clause, that only by grace through faith have any who are saved entered into that state of salvation, is a fact that is not something that comes about from oneself, not "of you." Rather, this is an "of God" thing, it is "the gift" of God that such is the way of salvation, by grace through faith.​

Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996)​

Sorry brother, but all the lexicon gymnastics in the world won't change faith to something that is earned or worked for.

Faith the last thing mentioned in verse 8, is what is being referred to here.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8


Faith is not of ourselves nor is the grace, it is a gift.

It comes to us when God speaks His word to us.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17



JLB

 

[chessman]

that we existed somewhere else before being born on this planet is exactly what I meant.

You mean like in the womb of our mothers here on Earth or in the knowledge of God as the Texts you just quoted says? Or on another planet?

Acts 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of humanity to live on all the face of the earth, determining their fixed times and the fixed boundaries of their habitation, ​

We all come from one man and fixed boundaries on the face of the Earth bother. Better check your sources.

2 Timothy 2:19 However, the solid foundation of God stands firm, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “Everyone who names the name of the Lord must abstain from unrighteousness.” ​

Now that's a solid foundation to be formed upon and believe in. Some more solid of a belief than others, obviously.

 

[Edward]

You mean like in the womb of our mothers here on Earth or in the knowledge of God as the Texts you just quoted says? Or on another planet?

Acts 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of humanity to live on all the face of the earth, determining their fixed times and the fixed boundaries of their habitation, ​

We all come from one man and fixed boundaries on the face of the Earth bother. Better check your sources.

2 Timothy 2:19 However, the solid foundation of God stands firm, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “Everyone who names the name of the Lord must abstain from unrighteousness.” ​

Now that's a solid foundation to be formed upon and believe in. Some more solid of a belief than others, obviously.

No I didn't mean another planet. It would have had to be where the Lord was. In heaven presumably. It does not say we existed in only the knowledge of God, it says He knew us before we were in the womb. Period.

 

[gr8grace3]

hello gr8grace, dirtfarmer here

The land that was promised to Abraham is in the hands of Israel, or at least part of it is, but during the millennium they will possess all of it. Israel is the only people that were estranged from their land for about 3000 years and then returned in 1948.

Agreed. They only occupy a tiny portion of what is really theirs at this time.

 

[Edward]

I think this is where most of us differ with your doctrine.

We are in a covenant relationship with Christ, through faith in Him.

We are joined to Him as a man and woman are joined through covenant relationship.

Your whole theory is based on the fact that it's impossible to become divorced, or become disconnected from Christ, to whom we are joined.

5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 5 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

This is illustrated in many ways in scripture by the Lord Himself, using the natural things of this earth, earthly things, to reveal a spiritual or heavenly reality.


As long as we are joined to the Lord, we are joined to the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.


If we become disconnected from Him, then we no longer are joined to the life of His Spirit; The Spirit of eternal life.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

You seem to dismiss this an an unimportant "agricultural metaphor", when Jesus is teaching us a life or death principle.


Just as a branch is dependent upon the Vine that it is connected to, we also are dependent on Christ to provide us eternal life, that is only found in Him.

Apart from, and disconnected from Him, we do not have eternal life.

This connection to Him comes from believing.


I have asked many times for you to provide the scripture that teaches us, a person who believes for a while, then does not believe any longer, still has eternal life.


No one who is separated or cut off from Christ has eternal life in and of themselves.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Where is the scripture that shows us, those who do not believe any longer have eternal life?




JLB

Exactly how I understand it. I was going to post the same thing earlier but got sidetracked.

"Unless you abide in me"

We basically gave God a writ of divorce in the Garden of Eden. What did God do? He (almost) immediately gave to us a skin covering, (which speaks of the innermost layer of a (Hebrew) bridal gown which is four parts...) to start us on our way back into relationship with Him...

 

[Edward]

Agreed. They only occupy a tiny portion of what is really theirs at this time.

I agree with this too. Some on this board will say nay, they already possessed it, but not so according to my research.

I find it interesting that the areas there which are still disputed to this day...are the same areas that they failed to wipe out all of the nephilim in the OT.

 

[gr8grace3]

You've been given several so far and don't seem to hear them.

Here's another....What about Adam & Eve? They got booted out of the Garden of Eden. Specific people, specific gifts revoked.

Just opinions Edward.

But I posted a scripture From James to show that God does not change His mind about the Good gifts He gives from above.

We have SPECIFIC verses that tell us that God does not revoke His good gifts from above..........but we have people trying to give examples of God revoking His gifts.

Can you please break down(exegete) the James verse I posted and explain that there is variation and a shifting shadow in God and His gifts to us? James seems to be saying the EXACT opposite.

New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

 

[gr8grace3]

What did God do? He (almost) immediately gave to us a skin covering, (which speaks of the innermost layer of a (Hebrew) bridal gown which is four parts...) to start us on our way back into relationship with Him...

He gave them a bloody covering(HIS CROSS) after they tried,in vain,to make their own covering(religion and working for salvation.)

The animal skins point to HIS CROSS.

 

[gr8grace3]

Just throwing this out there and not in a position to argue one way or another but what about the gift of life to Adam and Eve?

“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17 NKJV

I say go back to scripture then if one is in a position like yours.

If Gods gifts can be revoked and He does deviate and shift positions.........How can James clearly say He does NOT?

Can you show us that James actually meant that God will deviate and shift from His Gifts to us?

New American Standard Bible
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

 

[gr8grace3]

Correct.


Because the Garden of Eden wasn't called that.


Does the Bible call life a gift?


What I don't see is that any of these are described as a gift in Scripture. How could anyone not see that?


What Scripture describes the removal of any of what you've called a gift as being revoked?


I'm not seeing any Scripture describe any of these things as gifts, nor that God revokes them.


We must let Scripture speak for itself. What Scripture calls or describes as a gift, is a gift. We cannot take it upon ourselves to decide these various things as gifts and call them that, just because it "seems logical" to do so.

This is known as assumption. Assuming what is a gift. This is where we get into trouble when reading Scripture.

 

[gr8grace3]

Which is a demonstrably false claim. Gift (neuter) and faith (feminine) are not even the same genders.

Greek syntax matches gender of pronouns to the antecedent it refers to. So if "this" referred to either grace or faith individually, it should be in the feminine gender—and there is no reason it would not have been had such been the intention. Such a form would be ambiguous, since it could refer to either grace or faith, but likely be referring to the nearest referent, and thus faith.​

However, the neuter gender is used for the pronoun. This is the common gender used when a phrase or clause is the antecedent. So "this" refers to the whole previous clause, "By grace ye have been saved through faith."​

So this fact expressed by the clause, that only by grace through faith have any who are saved entered into that state of salvation, is a fact that is not something that comes about from oneself, not "of you." Rather, this is an "of God" thing, it is "the gift" of God that such is the way of salvation, by grace through faith.​

Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996)​

NICE Chessman. The neuter gender refers back to grace, faith,salvation as ALL gifts.

People get hung up on the 'faith' aspect as being a gift. It is a gift, because the Holy Spirit makes our personal volition faith( hardly any faith at all) effectual for salvation. Our personal faith would NEVER save us if it were not for the Holy Spirit making it effectual.

2 Cor 6:2~~New American Standard Bible
for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "--

 

[chessman]

the lexicon gymnastics in the world won't change faith to something that is earned or worked for.

What you call 'lexicon gymnastics' is called Bible Study by Bible students.

Faith the last thing mentioned in verse 8, is what is being referred to here.

No faith is not what the gift is.

Faith is not of ourselves nor is the grace, it is a gift.

Nor is salvation by Grace through faith. It's a gift.

It comes to us when God speaks His word to us.

Salvation by Grace through Faith came to us as a gift of God. Which is why we are His creation.

 

[Runner]

Is this an OSAS thread in disguise? Perhaps the question "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" should be rephrased as "How many OSAS threads can be started on one forum?"

A search of the New American Standard Bible generated 122 references to "gift" in the OT and NT. The vast majority of those were simply of no relevance to the issue of whether God ever revokes a gift. One that is at least somewhat relevant is Hebrews 6:4-6:

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
​

Does this mean the heavenly gift was revoked? No, it means the heavenly gift was conditional. The gift was conditioned on "not falling away." That condition was not fulfilled, and the heavenly gift was lost.