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What if Adam had not sinned ?

Adam did not possess Life Eternal in the beginning, but he had natural creature life, so the elect did not have Eternal Life in their natural head adam, even before they sinned in him in the beginning, for Eternal Life does not and cannot die ! The record is that God hath given to us [The Church] Eternal Life, and this Life which is Eternal is in His Son 1 Jn 5:11

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

There is no inspired record of God that anyone was given Eternal Life in adam !

This Eternal Life the Church receives was always with the Father 1 Jn 1:1-2

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us )

Again, it was never in adam in his beginning, it was with Christ the Mediator before adam was made, yes in Christ the Mediator Head of the Election of Grace. The breath that God breathed into Adam's nostrils, did not give him Eternal Life, but by it, man became a living soul Gen 2:7
 
Man in Adam before he sinned, and yet innocent, was not fit to enter into the Kingdom, that God prepared for them [His Elect] that Love Him James 2:5

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

This Kingdom was prepared for them before the Foundation Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

You see, at the time in the beginning, when the elect stood in Adam, they did not Love God, that was evidenced by the yielding to temptation and consequent disobedience to God's commandment ! Jesus said The first and greatest commandment is this Matt 22:36-38

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

Adam was not there yet, and consequently neither were the elect in him !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

There is no inspired record of God that anyone was given Eternal Life in adam !

/QUOTE]

Of Course not Adam did not have children until after he had sinned thus his salvation was dependent on Christ.

John
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Adam only Represented God's Chosen People !


Lk 3:38

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was a Son of God at Creation, and was Created for the propagation of the Godly Seed Mal 2:15

And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

The word godly here is the same word for God Elohym, The Seed of God. 1 Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A seed that shall be born of God !

If we recall it is through Adam unto Seth to his Son that men began to call upon the Name of the Lord Gen 4:25-26

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Now this is what always characterized the Godly Seed, they would call upon the name of the Lord !

Lets trace this to see if it is True ! Notice the Patriarch Abraham Gen 12:8

And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

Now if you look at the genealogy of Christ from Luke, you will see Adam, Seth, Enos, and Abraham Lk 3:34,38

Next Gen 26:25

And he builded an altar there, and called upon the name of the LORD, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.

Joel 2:32

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

1 Cor 1:2

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

With this principle in mind we can trace the Godly Seed, the Church of Christ all the way back to Adam !

This is one way to establish who it was that Adam Represented, not all men without exception, but the Elect Line of the Godly Seed. Remember also what scripture says this Gen 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

These would be from Adam, Seth, Enos and when men began to call upon the name of the Lord, the daughters of men are the reprobated descendants of cain!

The point is this, that there was a division upon men even this early in world history, because God always had a set apart people, which began with Adam !
 
More on Adam being for the Elect !


That Adam stood only for the Elect of Mankind, the People of God, and not all men without exception is seen from the fact that only the Chosen People of Israel were given the creation Sabbath as a Day of rest ! Ex 20:8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Which of course finds its foundation in the context of the creation Gen 2:1-3

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Now, if all men were created in Adam at creation, then why did he not give the Sabbath commandment to all people groups in the World, for only one people was shown this ! 147:19-20

19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.

20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.

The sabbath is one of those statues He showed to Israel only ! Neh 9:14

And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

The other nations were ignorant to this statue of the sabbath because for the most part they represented the non elect, the rejected people !
 
Adam in Rom 5:12ff


For Adam in the passage of Rom 5:12ff is seen by Paul as a Type of Christ or a figure of Christ Rom 5:14, mainly in that transgression of his and its consequences is what he highlights mainly. The consequences of it [his sin] was death and its attending effects, unto all for whom he did represent [The elect of God], they being one with him, so this was a figure or type of Christ's obedience to God's Law, coupled with His Death for it's penalty for a violated law, and Redemption from it, by being one with Him, as they were with Adam !

Now here is the point of similitude on why Adam is a Type of Christ, for Adam communicated to all he represented what he did possess, that being sin and death, so that all for whom he represented will be born sinners and dead to God, alienated from Him, now in like manner, Christ by His obedience does communicate [by His Spirit] Righteousness and Life, and they shall be born again [By His Spirit] as New Creatures Eph 4:24 out of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23; and so as Adam was the begetter of natural life [alienated from God] Christ s the begetter of Spiritual life 1 Cor 15:45, and so He is a Life giving Spirit by the providing of the Holy Spirit, and so it is in regards to this similitude Christ is the Last Adam; So now if the actual sin of Adam, a type of Christ was laid to the charge or reckoned upon to all them he did represent as their head, in like fashion the actual obedience of Christ, even unto Death [Phil 2:8], then His actual obedience is reckoned unto them for their Righteousness and Justification, and His death for the remission of their sins !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Adam in Rom 5:12ff


For Adam in the passage of Rom 5:12ff is seen by Paul as a Type of Christ or a figure of Christ Rom 5:14, mainly in that transgression of his and its consequences is what he highlights mainly. The consequences of it [his sin] was death and its attending effects, unto all for whom he did represent [The elect of God], they being one with him, so this was a figure or type of Christ's obedience to God's Law, coupled with His Death for it's penalty for a violated law, and Redemption from it, by being one with Him, as they were with Adam !

Now here is the point of similitude on why Adam is a Type of Christ, for Adam communicated to all he represented what he did possess, that being sin and death, so that all for whom he represented will be born sinners and dead to God, alienated from Him, now in like manner, Christ by His obedience does communicate [by His Spirit] Righteousness and Life, and they shall be born again [By His Spirit] as New Creatures Eph 4:24 out of incorruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23; and so as Adam was the begetter of natural life [alienated from God] Christ s the begetter of Spiritual life 1 Cor 15:45, and so He is a Life giving Spirit by the providing of the Holy Spirit, and so it is in regards to this similitude Christ is the Last Adam; So now if the actual sin of Adam, a type of Christ was laid to the charge or reckoned upon to all them he did represent as their head, in like fashion the actual obedience of Christ, even unto Death [Phil 2:8], then His actual obedience is reckoned unto them for their Righteousness and Justification, and His death for the remission of their sins !
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So how do you reconcile Abraham to whom was counted unto righteousness because of his faith.

John O
 
Dan 12:1-3

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Matt 13:43

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The Righteousness and Glory that God had purposed for His People, that Eternal Glory as Per 2 Tim 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This Righteousness and Glory that God purposed for His people, the Elect, to shine as the brightness in the firmament, this Glory was never going to be attainable in Adam, for at best Adam's Righteousness was a creatures righteousness, an earthly righteousness in a natural existence, whereas the Righteousness and Glory purposed by God in the Eternal Purpose of Christ Jesus Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This was an Heavenly and Glorious Righteousness, this God purposed for them [God's Elect] from the foundation, even before Adam was a piece of dust ! Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Yes the Kingdom of Matt 13:43

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
More on Adam being for the Elect !


That Adam stood only for the Elect of Mankind, the People of God, and not all men without exception is seen from the fact that only the Chosen People of Israel were given the creation Sabbath as a Day of rest ! Ex 20:8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Which of course finds its foundation in the context of the creation Gen 2:1-3

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Now, if all men were created in Adam at creation, then why did he not give the Sabbath commandment to all people groups in the World, for only one people was shown this ! 147:19-20

19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.

20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.

The sabbath is one of those statues He showed to Israel only ! Neh 9:14
Click to expand...

The Sabbath is not a statute, it is one of the Commandments.

And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

The other nations were ignorant to this statue of the sabbath because for the most part they represented the non elect, the rejected people !
Click to expand...

When was the Sabbath created?

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Creation week. Were God's laws (the Ten Commandments) around prior to Ex 20?

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Here God is asking Moses and Israel how long they will continue to refuse to keep His Commandments? Commandments that were already in effect and this is prior to Ex 20. The Sabbath instruction is actually worded to show it was already in effect...

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

If I give you a cup of cold coffee and tell you remember to keep it hot, can you do that? Not unless the coffee is already hot. If God tells Israel to remember to keep the Sabbath holy, can they keep something holy unless it was already holy? Furthermore, can you remember a command that was not given until that very moment?

Even Paul asserts that the Commandments were around from Adam to Moses...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. Remember that...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Says here that sin is not imputed when there is no law, nevertheless, the wages of sin, death, was exacted from Adam to Moses, showing that the law was ineffect from Adam to Moses.

1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

From the beginning. All Ten of the Commandments can be found stated or applied, from Gen 1:1 to Ex 19:25. All of them prior to Mt. Sinai.
 
John 8:32 said:
From the beginning. All Ten of the Commandments can be found stated or applied, from Gen 1:1 to Ex 19:25. All of them prior to Mt. Sinai.
Click to expand...

Very good! You do have excellent sight in that regard!

Abram actually had THE LAW already 'in hand' so to speak.

And as such he was MOVED away from those who did not FEAR God and became a 'wanderer,' a HEBREW, the first HEBREW in the spiritual sense.

s
 
jn 832

The Sabbath is not a statute, it is one of the Commandments.
Click to expand...

So do you understand the points I made in post 406 ? Please explain them , even though you may disagree ?
 
savedbygrace57 said:
So do you understand the points I made in post 406 ? Please explain them , even though you may disagree ?
Click to expand...

You have some things OK sbg, just as most do who post here.

Your notion of 'the elect' though is quite stretched beyond factual.

ALL men without exception, inclusive of believers and of ourselves are exactly the same ways in this regards, and yes, even AFTER belief.

We are 'all' down to the last one of us contained in a dust body of weakness, corruption and dishonor JUST AS ADAM was.

These factual conditions do not 'change' while we are presently contained no matter how 'legal' or how 'faithful' we may imagine ourselves to be.

And of course the PRIDE of resistance of our temporal lives as 'believers' tends to deny the obvious, and in effect when we transition to that state, the STATE OF DENIAL, we are made into fibbers, always 'blaming the other guy' or 'the other believers.'

Quite ridiculous actually.

s
 
smaller said:
Very good! You do have excellent sight in that regard!

Abram actually had THE LAW already 'in hand' so to speak.

And as such he was MOVED away from those who did not FEAR God and became a 'wanderer,' a HEBREW, the first HEBREW in the spiritual sense.

s
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An Hebrew is simply one who is a descendant of Eber or Heber. But you already knew that I am sure.
 
John 8:32 said:
An Hebrew is simply one who is a descendant of Eber or Heber. But you already knew that I am sure.
Click to expand...

If one prefers a literal view only. Christians themselves, even if they don't 'see it' are in fact Hebrews in the spiritual sense.

Sojourners of Promise. Prisoners of HOPE.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
jn 832



So do you understand the points I made in post 406 ? Please explain them , even though you may disagree ?
Click to expand...

To assume that the Commandments, including the fourth one, were and are only for Israel is just not factual...

Gen 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

Here is God speaking to a gentile king telling him he is a dead man. What is his reaction...

Gen 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
Gen 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

Did I do this intentionally or knowingly?

Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
Gen 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

Seems pretty apparent here that Abimelech understood a couple of things, first he understood...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Something that has not changed for 6000 years and secondly he understood...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Again, something that has not changed for 6000 years.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Gen 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.
Gen 20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?

Abraham brought upon Abimelech and his kingdom a great what? SIN! He knew what sin was.

Abimelech knew that adultery was a sin.

Gen 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.

Abraham falsely assumed that Abimelech and the kingdom of Gerar did not know God or His laws. Seems some make the very same mistake today. The law of God was known prior to Mt. Sinai.

To assume that the law was not in effect just because God did not enumerate it prior to Mt. Sinai is a mistake. If all that was said and done prior to Mt. Sinai was recorded, the earth could not contain the volumes...

Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

If just the things that Christ did in 33-1/2 years were all recorded, the world could not contain the books. Just because God has not told you everything He has done, don't assume He hasn't done it.
 
jn 832

To assume that the Commandments, including the fourth one, were and are only
for Israel is just not factual...
Click to expand...

So do you understand the points I made in post 406 ? Please explain them , even though you may disagree ?
 
That is a great question JimmyAk!

If I may so bold I would like to share some thoughts I've had with regards this very question I have asked myself. I believe it was possible for Adam and Eve to not have sinned but slowly over time other people would have and then there still would have ended up with two groups of people on the earth, righteous and unrighteous and the same end time war mentioned in Revelation would still need to occur.

Now as for the other part about man visiting heaven I have notice a vs in Ezekiel 46:1'Thus says the Lord http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-aGOD, "The http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1gate of the http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2inner court facing east shall be http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3shut the six http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4working days ; but it shall be opened on the http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-5sabbath day and opened on the day of the http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-6new moon. 2 "The http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-7prince shall enter by way of the porch of the gate from outside and stand by the http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8post of the gate. Then the priests shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate and then go out; but the gate shall not be http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/46.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-9shut until the evening

44:16 "They shall http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-40enter My sanctuary ; they shall come near to My http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-41table to minister to Me and keep My charge. 17 "It shall be that when they enter at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-42linen garments ; and wool shall not http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-jbe on them while they are ministering in the gates of the inner court and in the house. 18"Linen http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-43turbans shall be on their heads and http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-44linen undergarments shall be on their loins ; they shall not gird themselves with anything which makes them sweat. 19 "When they go out into the outer court, into the outer court to the people, they shall http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-45put off their garments in which they have been ministering and lay them in the holy chambers ; then they shall put on other garments so that they will http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/ezekiel/44.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-46not transmit holiness to the people with their garments.

So I have wondered if rather 'heaven' is more like a close spiritual visit with God shadowed in the Sabbath rest.

Digging
 
Man After the Fall !


Men after the sin of Adam, are born sinners without the Image of God no longer as he had in the Pre Fall Adam, for Man was made in the Image of God only at the original Creation, but are now born in the image and likeness of men Gen 5:3

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Man now is born of a fallen corrupted seed with a nature more fit for the devil, its being born out of corruptible seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Why doesn't it say in Gen 5:3 that Adam lived a 130 years and beget a Son in God's own Image and Likeness ?

I believe the scripture is indicating that man is no more in the Image of God until after being Created Anew As Per Eph 4:24; Col 3:10. Now if man retained the Image and Likeness of God before he is Born Again, then the above two verses are meaningless. For man was not created a slave to sin and the devil, but since the fall, he is just that, he is darkness itself Eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness

The only remedy is the New Creation or to be Born Again. And I do believe, that every man that was Created in Adam in the beginning, must be born again, A New Creation, and everyone who does not receive a New Birth, they were not in Adam at the fall !

The only other alternative is like cain was 1 Jn 3:12

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
 
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