What is a man?

[Butch5]

Butch...
JESUS called it Abraham's Bossom.
In Luke 16:19-31
verse 22

Abraham's Bossom is a place of rest until Jesus would die and the gates of heaven would be opened.

And...if a person is studying something, they usually do not bring preconceived ideas to the table. This is what study is for.

Everyone brings preconceived ideas to the text. If you believe the Bible is true that's a preconception. If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah that preconception. The problem is when we come to the text with wrong preconceptions, like the idea that dead people are alive when the Bible says they are dead. The reason people think the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is an actual event is because they come to the text believing that the dead are alive. That's a preconception. Our preconceptions color everything we do. They are the things we believe to be true or false. The Evolutionist doesn't believe in God so he interprets the evidence he sees differently than the creationist who believes in God. It's the same evidence yet the two come away with completely different conclusions based on the their preconceptions about God.


Jesus called Abraham's bosom, his chest, Abraham's bosom. He didn't say there is a place in Hades in the earth that is called Abraham's bosom. People conclude that because they aren't reading the text. Jesus explains it right there in the parable. It's right there, however, many don't see it because of their preconceptions.

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:23 KJV)

Look at what Jesus said. The rich man lifted up his eyes and what did he see? He saw Abraham. and he saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. If there a place called Abraham's bosom, how is Abraham in his own bosom? He's not. It's not a place. He saw Lazarus leaning on Abraham's chest. We see that Hagar was also in Abraham's bosom.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

I don't think anyone who reads this thinks that Hagar went down into the earth and conceived. She was in Abraham's bosom and she conceived. She had Abraham's child. She was intimate with Abraham.


It's just like when John was leaning on Jesus' bosom.

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. (Jn. 13:23 KJV)

Like Jesus is in the Father' bosom.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

 

[JLB]

You're conflating several passages. There is nothing in Scripture that says Paradise is in the heart of the earth. Paradise is a garden. People think it's in the heart of the earth because they already believe that dead people are alive and went to the heart of the earth. They bring that idea to the text. For this same reason people think that the "Parable" of Lazarus and the Rich man is about dead people talking. It's not. It's a parable.

You err, not knowing the scriptures.

God is not the God of the dead, but the living.

Abraham was alive and well in the heart of the earth. Speaking to the rich man, just as Jesus taught us.

Here are the words Jesus taught us Abraham said.

• Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

Why would you think Jesus would make up a lie about what Abraham said


JLB

 

[Butch5]

wondering

There are also other problems with claiming the parable is an actual event. You agreed that the body dies and returns to the dust. You said it was the soul that lives on. You say the soul is the, mind, emotions, and will, the immaterial part of man. Well, In the parable the rich man has eyes, he can speak so he must have a mouth, He saw Abraham and Lazarus so they must have had bodies. Lazarus had fingers. Now, if Hades is the grave as I said, one would expect to find bodies, and fingers, and eyes, etc. in the grave. But we know that Hades is the grave and not some place down in the earth because Jesus tells us.

22 'And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
(Lk. 16:22-23 YLT)

Jesus said the rich man was buried. "And in Hades", He equates being buried with being in Hades. They are the same. We know that when someone is buried their body is put in the grave. Being buried doesn't mean someone's, mind, will, or emotions, go down to the depths of the earth.

The evidence that this is a parable is so overwhelming.
1. The dead can't speak.
2 Hades is the grave.
3.The rich man had 5 brothers, Levi, the priesthood, had five brothers.
4. The rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen. The priesthood wore purple and fine linen.
5. The participants had body parts.
6. The rich man was suffering in Hades. Jesus said the place of burning was Gehenna, not Hades.
7. Lazarus means God help or God help me. Jesus cried out to God for help
8. Lazarus was covered with sores. Jesus was covered with sores.
9. It says the dogs licked Lazarus' sores. The Jews called the Gentiles dogs. The Gentiles received Jesus while the Jews rejected Him.
10. We're not told that Lazarus was believer or that he was righteous. We're not told that the rich man was an unbeliever or unrighteous.
11. If we take the passage, as most do, we have to assume that the rich go to hell and the poor are saved. If that is the case then most of western society will be going to hell because by world standards most of western society would be considered rich.

There are more. This is just of the top of my head.

 

[Butch5]

You err, not knowing the scriptures.

God is not the God of the dead, but the living.

Abraham was alive and well in the heart of the earth. Speaking to the rich man, just as Jesus taught us.

Here are the words Jesus taught us Abraham said.

• Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

Why would you think Jesus would make up a lie about what Abraham said


JLB

It's not a lie, it's a parable. You didn't address what I said, you just jumped to yet another passage. I've already addressed this passage.

 

[Butch5]

You're right.
It should be translated LITERALLY
but we need to interpret it correctly and to what we know today.
The O.T. would seem to make the earth be flat...today we know that it is not flat.
The O.T. would make it seem the earth is 6,000 years old, today we know this is not right and the earth is billions of years old, as is the universe.

But it is so correct about a lot.
God created everything...things seen AND UNSEEN.
This is true...God even created what we cannot see.

The O.T. is an inspired book(s).
But I do not believe it is meant to be taken literally, even though it should be translated literally. We need to interpret it correctly.

I'm not saying I don't believe the O.T. is correct.
AND GOD SAID: LET THERE BE LIGHT.
I believe this corresponds to the Big Bang that kids learn in school.

Let's put it this way: I trust what we know TODAY about our make-up than what was believed 4,000 years ago.

I believe there is on-going revelation up till the time of Jesus.
I believe some words were used metaphorically, such as heart....

It would be nice to hear what you don't like about the image I've posted several times since that IS how man is understood to be made. A material part that dies....(body) and immaterial parts that do not die at the time of our death (soul, spirit).

Well, If it shouldn't be interpreted literally then we can make it say whatever we want it to say. If we don't interpret it literally, then maybe it doesn't mean that God created all things. Maybe it doesn't mean that God created the Jewish people as His people. Maybe it doesn't mean there was a Jewish people. Maybe it doesn't mean there really was a Jewish Messiah. If there wasn't a Jewish Messiah, then Jesus wasn't it.

If we don't interpret it literally then you can't take the NT literally because it quotes extensively from the OT. If none of it is to be interpreted literally then we might as well reject all of it because no one really knows what it means. Each person simply interprets it however, they see fit.

The problem with your position is that it is literal. Archaeologists use the Bible to locate different sights. Kings and Chronicles are the official records of the kings of Israel. We can see that it's literal from secular history that records some of the same events.

We can't just pick and choose the parts we want to believe.

You said you go by what we know today. What do we know today? If the soul is this immaterial thing as you submit, no one knows what it is. You spoke of the big bang. Are you aware that evolution is just a theory. It can't be proven. The study of origins is always based on faith. I find it a little disconcerting that you would take the words of men who can't prove their claim over those of God.

 

[Butch5]

Some say the soul is the mind, will, and/or emotions. However, that can't be. Let's look at a few passages.

My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God. (Ps. 84:2 KJV)

Longing is an emotion, it's yearning. Notice in this passage longing is something the soul does, not what the soul is. If the soul was emotion the it would be the act of longing. It's not. It's something that the soul does.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. (Jn. 12:27 KJV)

Jesus' soul was troubled. Troubled means, upset, concerned, or worried. It's an emotion. Here again, notice that it's something the soul does, not what it is.

Now therefore, O king, come down according to all the desire of thy soul to come down; and our part shall be to deliver him into the king's hand. (1 Sam. 23:20 KJV)

Desire has to do with the will. Here the soul desires. Again, desire is something that soul does, not what it is.

That the soul to can desire, be happy, long, etc shows that these are things that the soul does. They are not what the soul is. So, who does these things and who are these passages talking about. They're talking about people. The soul is a living being. People desire, people, long, people are trouble.

 

[JLB]

It's not a lie, it's a parable. You didn't address what I said, you just jumped to yet another passage. I've already addressed this passage.

I know it’s not a lie, it’s the truth.

Jesus is the truth.

His words are truth.

The words that Jesus said of Abraham, the living man who was alive in the heart of the earth.

• Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
  

Abraham was not dead, but alive.

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32


Christians who die (physical death) go to heaven, since the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

I know it’s not a lie, it’s the truth.

Jesus is the truth.

His words are truth.

The words that Jesus said of Abraham, the living man who was alive in the heart of the earth.

• Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

Abraham was not dead, but alive.

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32


Christians who die (physical death) go to heaven, since the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ.



JLB

The Scripture say that Abraham died. The story is a parable. Jesus only spoke to them in parables. The living is a class of people as I've already addressed. Jesus also spoke of the dead as a class of people who were not dead.

And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (Matt. 8:21-22 KJV)

Physical death is all there is and there is nothing in Scripture that teaches that dead people are with Jesus.

 

[JLB]

The Scripture say that Abraham died.

Yes Abraham died physically.

So did Jesus.

Jesus says he spoke to the rich man.

Do you believe Jesus.

Abraham is not dead, spiritually as you can see from the words of Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, If it shouldn't be interpreted literally then we can make it say whatever we want it to say.

You have that completely backwards.

If we decide to interpret it parabolically then we can make it say whatever we want.

This is direct speech from Christ about literal people.

Abraham is a literal person.

Lazarus is a literal person.

The rich man was a literal person.

Moses is a literal person.


Jesus Christ literally said that Abraham literally said... They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Yes Abraham died physically.

So did Jesus.

Jesus says he spoke to the rich man.

Do you believe Jesus.

Abraham is not dead, spiritually as you can see from the words of Jesus Christ.


JLB

It doesn't say Abraham died physically. It says Abraham died. It seems you're adding "physically" to make it fit what you believe.

 

[jasonc]

Having been advised by a person who learned koine Greek.

If you want to know what hades was seek the Illead of homer .

Hades | Characteristics, Family, & Mythology

Hades, in ancient Greek religion, god of the underworld. He was a son of the Titans Cronus and Rhea and brother of the deities Zeus, Poseidon, and Hera. He ruled with his queen, Persephone, over the dead, though he was not normally a judge, nor did he torture the guilty, a task assigned to the...

www.britannica.com

Why on earth would both the 70 men in the days of Ptolemy choose the Greek word associated with a god and his underworld realm when the word for grave is also more common and not hades.

Same with the Greek of after the cross.which was Pluto,or Hades.

That's intentional to use that .

Being Jewish ,I know that Jews don't see sheol,as a grave . I did alot of reading on paradise ,gan Eden ,sheol .

Not a grave only .can't just use a dictionary and go speak Hebrew or any language ,you learn Hebrew from the tanakh.its taught to,you in,schul.

A culture built on that might have views on words and uses.idioms and so forth and carry weight .our modern church is so removed from that whereas the early one wasn't .to translate kever to Hades ,is too broad without a context.

Besides how does death have bodies ?

Revalation mentions death ,Hades and the sea giving up the dead .

 

[JLB]

It doesn't say Abraham died physically. It says Abraham died. It seems you're adding "physically" to make it fit what you believe.

Abraham was gathered to his people, not dead in the grave.

Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people.
Genesis 25:8


The reason we know Abraham died physically but not spiritually is Jesus said these word about him specifically —


I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Matthew 22:32

We know Abraham died and was buried, so if Jesus says he is living then we know it’s not physically, which is to say, his physical body is dead.

Jesus also spoke specifically again about Abraham, when he taught us about life after (physical) death in His teaching about the rich man and Lazarus.


So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. Luke 16:22

We see that Lazarus was carried by the angels to where Abraham was.


the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, verse 23


We see that the rich man died and was buried, but he ended up in hell and was being tormented in the fire.


he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

• In hell he could recognize Abraham, and see him and Lazarus.
• He could speak.
• He experienced torment and pain.

But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:26

• We see that Abraham could hear the rich man.
• We see that Abraham could speak
• We see that Abraham had awareness of the rich man’s past life as well as Lazarus, recounting it to him.

“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.
Luke 16:27-28


We see that the rich man had awareness and concern for his family, which are faculties of the human soul.


Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Luke 16:29-30


Abraham understood Moses law even though he died before Moses was born.

Who taught him these these things?

How can a dead soul learn and understand these things having never learned them in his physical life, except by the Spirit of Christ who was in him?


Jesus is teaching us about life after death.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Everyone brings preconceived ideas to the text. If you believe the Bible is true that's a preconception. If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah that preconception. The problem is when we come to the text with wrong preconceptions, like the idea that dead people are alive when the Bible says they are dead. The reason people think the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is an actual event is because they come to the text believing that the dead are alive. That's a preconception. Our preconceptions color everything we do. They are the things we believe to be true or false. The Evolutionist doesn't believe in God so he interprets the evidence he sees differently than the creationist who believes in God. It's the same evidence yet the two come away with completely different conclusions based on the their preconceptions about God.

Well, then,,,EVERYTHING we believe is a preconception..
including what you believe.

I don't make up my own theology Butch. I've said this many times now. We have scholars and theologians that are able to understand the bible and that come up with theology. This has been happening from when the Apostles were alive....Paul made up a lot of theology -- I'm sure you're familiar with the book of Romans----which contains all the theology necessary to understand Christianity.

Was it not the early theologians that understood and explained the Godhead, or Trinity, or Triune God? Was it not the early theologians that understood the hypostatic union of Jesus?

I think we need to stop thinking that each one of us reads the N.T. and comes away with our very own theology. Surely this would be a religion of confusion...and can a religion of confusion hold any real faith?

We must be sure of what we believe---
It must agree with scripture...but it must be cohesive.

So it would be nice if you stopped saying that we bring preconceived notions to the table as if we each made up our own.
Where did YOU get YOUR preconceived notions?

People believe the story of Lazarus was not a parable because theologians have stated this and have given their reasons.
People believe we go on living after death because theologians have studied this and have concluded that the soul and spirit cannot die. If it can die...then how is life ETERNAL?

Are you depending on theology for your beliefs...do you go to a church that teaches this?

I surely hope you are not you're own theologian unless you've studied for years.

Jesus called Abraham's bosom, his chest, Abraham's bosom. He didn't say there is a place in Hades in the earth that is called Abraham's bosom. People conclude that because they aren't reading the text. Jesus explains it right there in the parable. It's right there, however, many don't see it because of their preconceptions.

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lk. 16:23 KJV)

Look at what Jesus said. The rich man lifted up his eyes and what did he see? He saw Abraham. and he saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. If there a place called Abraham's bosom, how is Abraham in his own bosom? He's not. It's not a place. He saw Lazarus leaning on Abraham's chest. We see that Hagar was also in Abraham's bosom.

Huh?
Abraham's Bossom is the name of a place.
It does NOT mean literally in the chest of Abraham.
Jesus is allowed to call any place any name HE so desires. It's not up to us to correct JESUS.

Also, some call paradise a garden-like place...
and some believe paradise is Hades....from Luke 16:19-31.
And by some I mean THOLOGIANS....I don't mean individual persons. Upon studying this, they can choose one or the other.

I found this which might be helpful...I only post it because it holds the position I agree with BASED ON THEOLOGICAL studies by those that know more than I do.

Where do we go when we die? Paradise, Hades (Greek), Sheol (Hebrew), Abraham’s bosom, Gehenna, lake of fire, hell, new heaven new earth

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

I don't think anyone who reads this thinks that Hagar went down into the earth and conceived. She was in Abraham's bosom and she conceived. She had Abraham's child. She was intimate with Abraham.


It's just like when John was leaning on Jesus' bosom.

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. (Jn. 13:23 KJV)

Like Jesus is in the Father' bosom.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

I cannot agree with the above statements.
Abraham's Bossom is the name of A PLACE...
it does not mean in the chest of Abraham.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering

There are also other problems with claiming the parable is an actual event. You agreed that the body dies and returns to the dust. You said it was the soul that lives on. You say the soul is the, mind, emotions, and will, the immaterial part of man. Well, In the parable the rich man has eyes, he can speak so he must have a mouth, He saw Abraham and Lazarus so they must have had bodies. Lazarus had fingers. Now, if Hades is the grave as I said, one would expect to find bodies, and fingers, and eyes, etc. in the grave. But we know that Hades is the grave and not some place down in the earth because Jesus tells us.

I never stated WHERE Hades is....I don't know.

The rich man has eyes:
Do you believe we will not see after death?

The problem is that you believe we won't even be aware after death. I'm still not sure what you believe.

You said the spirit goes back to be with God.
What is the spirit?
Does the spirit see?
Does it know it is Butch5?
Will Wondering be aware?

Could you be more clear please.

22 'And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,
(Lk. 16:22-23 YLT)

Jesus said the rich man was buried. "And in Hades", He equates being buried with being in Hades. They are the same. We know that when someone is buried their body is put in the grave. Being buried doesn't mean someone's, mind, will, or emotions, go down to the depths of the earth.

I agree!
I've been saying all along that our mind, will and emotions exist even AFTER death.
(you do confuse me Butch 5...even this thread may not serve to clarify).

Are you saying the SPIRIT contains EVERYTHING except the physical part?

The evidence that this is a parable is so overwhelming.
1. The dead can't speak.
2 Hades is the grave.
3.The rich man had 5 brothers, Levi, the priesthood, had five brothers.
4. The rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen. The priesthood wore purple and fine linen.
5. The participants had body parts.
6. The rich man was suffering in Hades. Jesus said the place of burning was Gehenna, not Hades.
7. Lazarus means God help or God help me. Jesus cried out to God for help
8. Lazarus was covered with sores. Jesus was covered with sores.
9. It says the dogs licked Lazarus' sores. The Jews called the Gentiles dogs. The Gentiles received Jesus while the Jews rejected Him.
10. We're not told that Lazarus was believer or that he was righteous. We're not told that the rich man was an unbeliever or unrighteous.
11. If we take the passage, as most do, we have to assume that the rich go to hell and the poor are saved. If that is the case then most of western society will be going to hell because by world standards most of western society would be considered rich.

There are more. This is just of the top of my head.

We'd have to start a different thread to address all these points.
It is OK for you to believe Hades is a parable. Theologians are separated on this.

I believe it's true and Jesus was telling us what happened to us after death BEFORE Jesus died and AFTER He died Hades disappears. But what one believes is pretty irrelevant.

What is relevant is that the N.T. does not teach soul sleep...and that we are aware after death.
The Transfiguration would be a good example...but you don't believe that either.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, If it shouldn't be interpreted literally then we can make it say whatever we want it to say. If we don't interpret it literally, then maybe it doesn't mean that God created all things. Maybe it doesn't mean that God created the Jewish people as His people. Maybe it doesn't mean there was a Jewish people. Maybe it doesn't mean there really was a Jewish Messiah. If there wasn't a Jewish Messiah, then Jesus wasn't it.

I did not say the bible shouldn't be interpreted literally.
I said it SHOULD BE interpreted literally.
We can't take the words of the bible and change them,,,they must be interpreted as the original intent was.
There was a misunderstanding along the way....

If we don't interpret it literally then you can't take the NT literally because it quotes extensively from the OT. If none of it is to be interpreted literally then we might as well reject all of it because no one really knows what it means. Each person simply interprets it however, they see fit.

I agree.

The problem with your position is that it is literal. Archaeologists use the Bible to locate different sights. Kings and Chronicles are the official records of the kings of Israel. We can see that it's literal from secular history that records some of the same events.

But didn't you just say that I don't think the bible should be interpreted literally? You confuse me.
My position is that the bible is to be TAKEN LITERALLY.

You said you go by what we know today. What do we know today? If the soul is this immaterial thing as you submit, no one knows what it is. You spoke of the big bang. Are you aware that evolution is just a theory. It can't be proven. The study of origins is always based on faith. I find it a little disconcerting that you would take the words of men who can't prove their claim over those of God.

1. The soul: YES...we know more about the soul TODAY than we did at the time of the N.T. Plato and Socrates believed the soul was immortal and this was before Jesus....however they did not agree with the Christian concept of a soul --- so yes, we know more today... we know that the mind is part of the soul, for instance.

2. The Big Bang: I'm very aware of evolution. How do you know what I think about it? You shouldn't assume anything...

How do you know I take the words of men?
Which men do I take the words of?

Please stay with what I say on this thread....and don't go beyond.

 

[Butch5]

Well, then,,,EVERYTHING we believe is a preconception..
including what you believe.

I don't make up my own theology Butch. I've said this many times now. We have scholars and theologians that are able to understand the bible and that come up with theology. This has been happening from when the Apostles were alive....Paul made up a lot of theology -- I'm sure you're familiar with the book of Romans----which contains all the theology necessary to understand Christianity.

Was it not the early theologians that understood and explained the Godhead, or Trinity, or Triune God? Was it not the early theologians that understood the hypostatic union of Jesus?

I think we need to stop thinking that each one of us reads the N.T. and comes away with our very own theology. Surely this would be a religion of confusion...and can a religion of confusion hold any real faith?

We must be sure of what we believe---
It must agree with scripture...but it must be cohesive.

So it would be nice if you stopped saying that we bring preconceived notions to the table as if we each made up our own.
Where did YOU get YOUR preconceived notions?

People believe the story of Lazarus was not a parable because theologians have stated this and have given their reasons.
People believe we go on living after death because theologians have studied this and have concluded that the soul and spirit cannot die. If it can die...then how is life ETERNAL?

Yes, what we believe are our preconceptions. As I said, the creation scientist looks at the evidence with the preconception that God exists and make his conclusion. The Evolutionist looks at the same evidence with the preconception that God doesn't exist and comes to a different conclusion. Same evidence two opposing occlusions at least one is wrong. If one comes to the Bible with the idea that the dead are alive, that's how they will interpret the text. If one comes to the text believing the dead are dead that's how they will interpret the text. Two opposing views, at least one of them is wrong. The question is which one does the Bible teach. That's pretty easy to determine as the we find that in the Bible people die. There is nothing in the Bible that say dead people aren't really dead. Nothing that says the soul lives on. Nothing that says dead people are, in heaven, with Jesus, or with God. This idea came into the Christian faith from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

You speak of theologians as though they are an authority on what is and isn't correct. I I believe you're Catholic, correct? Do you believe that the Protestant theologians are correct? Do you believe that the Protestant theologians who teach that, people were chosen before time to be saved, have no part in their salvation, and can't lose their salvation? Do you believe every theologian. If you don't then your argument is null and void. Because just like the theologians you disagree with you think are wrong, so too, the ones you agree with can be wrong. I would go so far as to say stay away from theologians. Most of them are wrong. They just spout the theology of whatever seminary they were taught at. A Catholic theologian espouses Catholic theology, a Methodist, Methodist theology, a Baptist, Baptist theology and on down line. So, no, we can't just rely on theologians.

And, yes people do make up their own theology. That's why there are so many different denominations and beliefs among Christians.

Are you depending on theology for your beliefs...do you go to a church that teaches this?

I surely hope you are not you're own theologian unless you've studied for years.

My theology is based on a four part hermeneutic, the absolute authority of Scripture, Grammatical/Historical interpretation, sound logic, and historical precedent. And yes, I have studied this subject for years.

Huh?
Abraham's Bossom is the name of a place.
It does NOT mean literally in the chest of Abraham.
Jesus is allowed to call any place any name HE so desires. It's not up to us to correct JESUS.

Also, some call paradise a garden-like place...
and some believe paradise is Hades....from Luke 16:19-31.
And by some I mean THOLOGIANS....I don't mean individual persons. Upon studying this, they can choose one or the other.

I found this which might be helpful...I only post it because it holds the position I agree with BASED ON THEOLOGICAL studies by those that know more than I do.

Where do we go when we die? Paradise, Hades (Greek), Sheol (Hebrew), Abraham’s bosom, Gehenna, lake of fire, hell, new heaven new earth

There is nowhere in Scripture that states Abraham's bosom is place. Jesus said that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom. In the parable Lazarus was carried to the man Abraham and was placed in his bosom. It's a picture of being in a close relationship with Abraham. If I said I took the baby and placed it in it's mother's bosom, surely people wouldn't get on Google and try to locate place called, "It's mother bosom". Surely they would understand that I placed the baby in it's mother's arms resting on the chest area. There's nothing in Scripture to warrant calling Abraham's bosom a location in Hades except a misunderstanding of the "Parable" of Lazarus and the Rich Man. And, even that doesn't require it because, it simply means Lazarus was in Abraham's embrace.

I cannot agree with the above statements.
Abraham's Bossom is the name of A PLACE...
it does not mean in the chest of Abraham.

I think this pretty much puts an end to the discussion. I hold the Bible as the final authority, It seems you disagree with some of the Bible. You say a soul can't die, the Bible says it can. You say Abraham's bosom is a place in Hades, yet we see that Hagar was in Abraham's bosom alive and on earth, but, you disagree with that.

 

[Randy]

Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. That they may judged according to the flesh but live according to the spirit.
John was caught up to heaven in the spirit.
Jesus told His disciples that there are many mansions where He was going and He would prepare a place for them.

Those in Christ are one with Him in the spirit a new creation. He never dies and we live in Him.

 

[Butch5]

I did not say the bible shouldn't be interpreted literally.
I said it SHOULD BE interpreted literally.
We can't take the words of the bible and change them,,,they must be interpreted as the original intent was.
There was a misunderstanding along the way....


I agree.


But didn't you just say that I don't think the bible should be interpreted literally? You confuse me.
My position is that the bible is to be TAKEN LITERALLY.



1. The soul: YES...we know more about the soul TODAY than we did at the time of the N.T. Plato and Socrates believed the soul was immortal and this was before Jesus....however they did not agree with the Christian concept of a soul --- so yes, we know more today... we know that the mind is part of the soul, for instance.

2. The Big Bang: I'm very aware of evolution. How do you know what I think about it? You shouldn't assume anything...

How do you know I take the words of men?
Which men do I take the words of?

Please stay with what I say on this thread....and don't go beyond.

I'm not going beyond what you say. You might want to think this through a little more. Above you made this statement.

"My position is that the bible is to be TAKEN LITERALLY."

In post 177 you made this statement.

"The O.T. is an inspired book(s).
But I do not believe it is meant to be taken literally, even though it should be translated literally. We need to interpret it correctly. "

I highlighted the above
The OT is part of the Bible. In one post you say it shouldn't be taken literally and in another you say it should be.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. That they may judged according to the flesh but live according to the spirit.
John was caught up to heaven in the spirit.
Jesus told His disciples that there are many mansions where He was going and He would prepare a place for them.

Those in Christ are one with Him in the spirit a new creation. He never dies and we live in Him.

I think we're addressed those passages.