What is a man?

[GodsGrace]

That's not what I'm saying. You're rejecting the OT because it has metaphors, yet you not rejecting the NT which also has metaphors.

How do you think this?
I've posted Matthew 15:19 twice and still you do not understand?

I DO NOT believe evil thoughts come from the heart...which is what Matthew is saying. Metaphors SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED for doctrinal purposes.

I do not reject the O.T.
I do not reject the N.T.

I need to say good night...it's late here.
Please consider what you have said:
THE BODY IS PART OF THE SOUL.

Could you please explain what you don't like about the following image? We could continue tomorrow, if you wish.

 

[Butch5]

The BODY is NOT part of the SOUL.


View attachment 9513

According to Gen 2:7, it is. According to Isaiah, it is.

 

[GodsGrace]

According to Gen 2:7, it is. According to Isaiah, it is.

So how do you exegete 1 Thessalonians 5:23?


Please explain what a soul is and how it is part of the body.
'night.

 

[Butch5]

How do you think this?
I've posted Matthew 15:19 twice and still you do not understand?

I DO NOT believe evil thoughts come from the heart...which is what Matthew is saying. Metaphors SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED for doctrinal purposes.

I do not reject the O.T.
I do not reject the N.T.

I need to say good night...it's late here.
Please consider what you have said:
THE BODY IS PART OF THE SOUL.

Could you please explain what you don't like about the following image? We could continue tomorrow, if you wish.


View attachment 9515

This is what you said in post 149. "The O.T. is outdated in its expressions.
It cannot be translated literally."

If the OT cannot be translated literally, I think you meant interpreted, because it has metaphors then neither can the NT.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG...
Must say good night to both you and Butch5 till the morning....
I believe you and I agree as to what the Spirit is and what the Soul is ---- we all believe what our physical body is.

Where you and I disagree then is what happens immediately after death. I could post more in the morning....

BUT could you answer this one question....

You said that the soul and the spirit (whether we want to say they are separate or combined) go back to be with God from where they came.

How could they be dead, if they go to be with God?

(I see that you believe in soul sleep....WHAT sleeps??)

This is a little lengthy, sorry.

There is no such thing as soul sleep as these are false doctrines of the JW and Mormons.

Genesis 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

No one has ever entered the third Heaven where God sits on His throne. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4, John 3:13.

The soul, which makes up the conscious part of ones being, is that of thought, action and emotion and when one phyically dies the soul, just like our breath returns back to God as it belongs to Him. It's like what Jesus was telling Martha, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die, John 11:23-26.

This is also the same in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This mortal will return to the dust of the ground as it is not our physical bodies that will be resurrected, but given new glorified bodies as we will be changed. We will either be raised unto the resurrection of eternal life or eternal damnation, John 5:28, 29.

Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together when we were conceived in our mother's womb.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The body is physical with five senses being sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch that connects with the world.

The soul is the part of the human being that will live on in eternity and with our soul, not our body, is the part of us that is to love God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

In those two verses it speaks about our soul as being in relationship with God and not this fleshly body. It's our soul and spirit that needs regeneration by God's Spirit.

The life we have here on earth is temporal as our physical bodies will die and return to the dust and be remembered no more.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The life and the blood is in Jesus who gives our soul eternal life with the Father by that of the blood sacrifice of Christ through God's grace that we are made righteous by the righteousness of God through the Spiritual rebirth. God is not going to reform our physical bodies that have returned to dust, but will raise us from the grave in new glorified bodies that we know not what we will look like.

 

[Hospes]

The breath of life gives us life. What makes us different is quite few things. Some people are tall some are short. Some people are smarter than others, some are funnier, etc. Our experiences make us different. Someone who was cheated often as a child may grow up not trusting people, etc. These things make us who we are. The breath of life animates us.

Going back to my computer analogy. An Apple computer and a Windows computer act very differently. They have different requirements. They have different strengths and weaknesses, essentially, they have different personalities. However, the same electricity animates each of them. The electricity in one is no different than that electricity in the other. The electricity is the same yet the personalities of the computers are quite different.

I think I understand, even if you did not directly answer my question.

Bottom line is that once the electricity is pulled, just as with a PC, we as persons cease to exist. I get it, but it sure strikes me as awful, though I do realize that "awful" is not a measure of a things' truth value. Fortunately, my reading of the scriptures leads me to a much more joyful doctrine in which God loves me as a distinct, albeit created, person who does not turn into nothingness upon my physical death.

Thanks for engaging my questions.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus said it was a vision. Jesus, Peter, James, and John, went up on the mountain. They were there. Moses and Elijah were dead, they weren't there. You see, you're assuming before the text that dead people are alive and then you're presenting this passage to prove dead people are alive. That's actually a logical fallacy known as begging the question. This passage doesn't say that Moses and Elijah were alive. Jesus said it was a vision, and Peter said it was Christ's coming in power. As I said before, it wasn't his first coming because He was already there. It obviously couldn't actually be His second coming because He had not left from the first coming.

There's nothing here that teaches dead people are alive. One simply must already assume that and impose it on the text.

I agree with you and this is why.

Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29. It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelites never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

2 Chronicles Chapter 21 - Jehoram, being the son of Jehoshaphat, was 32 when he began his reign in Israel. He married Ahab's daughter and was a wicked king who reigned for eight years. According to scripture Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11-13. The heaven Elijah went up to was only the first heaven being the atmosphere as there are three heavens described in scripture as the throne of God is in the third heaven. A whirlwind can only happen within the atmosphere of the first heaven. During the reign of Jehoram he received a letter from Elijah, 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. How could he receive a letter from Elijah if he was with God in the third heaven? Elijah being caught up to heaven is the same as Phillip being caught up in the first heaven and carried thirty miles away, Acts 8:39, 40. The only difference is that when the fifty men searched for Elijah they could not find him as he was translated further than their search. Phillip was found within the thirty mile radius where he was translated to.

 

[JLB]

According to Gen 2:7, it is. According to Isaiah, it is.

Why do you keep taking a unique, one of a kind, instance whereby God created Adam from the dust of the ground, then apply the same circumstances to all mankind?


Makes no sense.


Is all mankind created the same as Adam was created?



JLB

 

[Edward]

Right, It says "your" spirit. The word "your" denotes possession or ownership, not person. "You" denotes person. If I said, "I saw your red truck", would that mean you are a red truck? No, obviously not. It means you possess or own a red truck. You do have a spirit or breath. It is the breath of life. It's something of God, it's not man. It came out of God. That's what Gen 2:7 tells us.

So is what you are saying is that, there is nothing spiritual about man at all? You make no distinction between spiritual man and corporeal man. But how? God is a spirit and man was created in God's own image and likeness. So are you saying that God has a flesh body? Otherwise, how are we in God's image and likeness?


John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.../

How do we worship God in spirit if we have no spirit?

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.../

What happened when you were saved? Since we have no spirit, then what passed away and what was it that became new? This isn’t talking about your body. If you were a man before you accepted Christ, you were still a man afterwards. Your body didn’t change. And your soul, which is what the Bible calls the mental-emotional part of you, didn’t automatically change either. It’s subject to change, but you have to renew your mind to experience change in your mind and emotions.

 

[JLB]

Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:6-10

• We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

When Christians die, they go to be with the Lord in heaven.

These saints return with Him at His coming to receive their resurrected bodies.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


Key Verse:

• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

again


Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, Jude 14


again


The Day of the Lord —


Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You
Zechariah 14:1-5


Those Christians who have died, will come with Jesus from heaven to earth, at His Second coming.



After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14


The saints who came out of the great tribulation are shown to be in heaven with Jesus, the Lamb of God.


The Saints return with the Lord —


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14


And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:6-10

• We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

When Christians die, they go to be with the Lord in heaven.

These saints return with Him at His coming to receive their resurrected bodies.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17


Key Verse:

• For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

again


Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, Jude 14


again


The Day of the Lord —


Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You
Zechariah 14:1-5


Those Christians who have died, will come with Jesus from heaven to earth, at His Second coming.



After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14


The saints who came out of the great tribulation are shown to be in heaven with Jesus, the Lamb of God.


The Saints return with the Lord —


Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Revelation 19:11-14


And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses




JLB

How do you deal with John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Galatians 5:16, 17
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16

Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

In post # 108, 165 and 167 I have already given the scriptures that it is only our breath and soul that goes back to God when we physically die. No one has ever gone up to the third heaven.

In Rev 6:9-11 we read about the souls under the altar in heaven as being the souls of those who have died a martyr's death. Their physical bodies are still in their graves waiting for the hour Jesus returns and which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 you say the key verse is vs. 14, but this only happens when Christ returns and then those who are in their graves that are Christ's own will rise and be given new glorifed bodies as God will bring Jesus with all the saints into the New Jerusalem for eternity.

The Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints in Jude 1:14 is in reference to when Christ returns we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool in the end of days when Christ plants His feet on the Mt of Olives, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13, Daniel 7:10; Zechariah 14:5.

Rev 19:14 the armies are the angels/host of heaven we read about in Matthew 24:29-31 that Jesus sends out on the last day to gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Butch5]

I think I understand, even if you did not directly answer my question.

Bottom line is that once the electricity is pulled, just as with a PC, we as persons cease to exist. I get it, but it sure strikes me as awful, though I do realize that "awful" is not a measure of a things' truth value. Fortunately, my reading of the scriptures leads me to a much more joyful doctrine in which God loves me as a distinct, albeit created, person who does not turn into nothingness upon my physical death.

Thanks for engaging my questions.

You"re welcome! I thought I had answrred it. Sorry if I didn't nail it. There is joy. It's the hope of the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

I agree with you and this is why.

Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29. It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelites never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

2 Chronicles Chapter 21 - Jehoram, being the son of Jehoshaphat, was 32 when he began his reign in Israel. He married Ahab's daughter and was a wicked king who reigned for eight years. According to scripture Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11-13. The heaven Elijah went up to was only the first heaven being the atmosphere as there are three heavens described in scripture as the throne of God is in the third heaven. A whirlwind can only happen within the atmosphere of the first heaven. During the reign of Jehoram he received a letter from Elijah, 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. How could he receive a letter from Elijah if he was with God in the third heaven? Elijah being caught up to heaven is the same as Phillip being caught up in the first heaven and carried thirty miles away, Acts 8:39, 40. The only difference is that when the fifty men searched for Elijah they could not find him as he was translated further than their search. Phillip was found within the thirty mile radius where he was translated to.

Yeah, it was vision.

 

[Butch5]

Why do you keep taking a unique, one of a kind, instance whereby God created Adam from the dust of the ground, then apply the same circumstances to all mankind?


Makes no sense.


Is all mankind created the same as Adam was created?



JLB

Because we're all descended from Adam. Thus we are of the same substance. Scripture tells us that all flesh has the breath of life. That makes us the same as Adam.

 

[Butch5]

So is what you are saying is that, there is nothing spiritual about man at all? You make no distinction between spiritual man and corporeal man. But how? God is a spirit and man was created in God's own image and likeness. So are you saying that God has a flesh body? Otherwise, how are we in God's image and likeness?

What do you mean by spiritual? As I've said a few times, the English word spirit has as it's definition a disembodied living being, like a ghost. However, the Greek and Hebrew words that the Translators are translating spirit have no such meaning. They simply mean wind or breath. The word spiritual is a adjective. An adjective modifies a noun. It gives some qualities of the word to the noun. So, spiritual basically means breathual. What does that mean? If it was a word it would mean that someone or something has the qualities of the breath. Thus, spiritual means that someone or something has the qualities of the spirit. But the words for spirit mean wind of breath. So what are the qualities of the wind?

Again, what is spiritual man. You said I make no difference between spiritual and corporeal. What is spiritual man?

You said God is a spirit. That means that God is wind or breath. What does it mean, God is wind of breath?

Scripture says man is made in the image of God, however, Scripture doesn't elaborate on that. Therefore anything was say is speculation

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.../

How do we worship God in spirit if we have no spirit?

I didn't say we don't have a spirit. I said we aren't a spirit. We have a spirit or breath. It is the breath of life. But, the breath of life isn't man.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.../

What happened when you were saved? Since we have no spirit, then what passed away and what was it that became new? This isn’t talking about your body. If you were a man before you accepted Christ, you were still a man afterwards. Your body didn’t change. And your soul, which is what the Bible calls the mental-emotional part of you, didn’t automatically change either. It’s subject to change, but you have to renew your mind to experience change in your mind and emotions.
[/QUOTE]

Paul often talks in concepts. What passed away is the old life. The Christian is called to be holy. When one becomes a Christian he is to repent and turn away from his old way. He's called to something new. A new life, a new way of living. The old way is to be rejected now. It's to be put away.

The Bible doesn't call the soul, the mental or emotional part of man. I'm not sure where this comes from but the Bible doesn't teach it. It uses nephesh and psuche of a living being or abstractly of life.

 

[jasonc]

The early soul sleep doctrine ,didn't teach the idea that the soul was sleeping but was aware .

If john saw a vision of God with souls with him,,what exactly was God since that is but a vision and those souls just a vision?that includes angels .

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what you said in post 149. "The O.T. is outdated in its expressions.
It cannot be translated literally."

If the OT cannot be translated literally, I think you meant interpreted, because it has metaphors then neither can the NT.

You're right.
It should be translated LITERALLY
but we need to interpret it correctly and to what we know today.
The O.T. would seem to make the earth be flat...today we know that it is not flat.
The O.T. would make it seem the earth is 6,000 years old, today we know this is not right and the earth is billions of years old, as is the universe.

But it is so correct about a lot.
God created everything...things seen AND UNSEEN.
This is true...God even created what we cannot see.

The O.T. is an inspired book(s).
But I do not believe it is meant to be taken literally, even though it should be translated literally. We need to interpret it correctly.

I'm not saying I don't believe the O.T. is correct.
AND GOD SAID: LET THERE BE LIGHT.
I believe this corresponds to the Big Bang that kids learn in school.

Let's put it this way: I trust what we know TODAY about our make-up than what was believed 4,000 years ago.

I believe there is on-going revelation up till the time of Jesus.
I believe some words were used metaphorically, such as heart....

It would be nice to hear what you don't like about the image I've posted several times since that IS how man is understood to be made. A material part that dies....(body) and immaterial parts that do not die at the time of our death (soul, spirit).

 

[jasonc]

Truly I say to you today you,will be with be me in,paradise.

If the thief was unaware,nothing in,a state of non existence then so was Jesus,as the thief wouldn't know who ,or,what state he was in.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a little lengthy, sorry.

There is no such thing as soul sleep as these are false doctrines of the JW and Mormons.

Genesis 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Agreed.
For Genesis 2:7 I have LIFE in several versions....

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

Agreed.
The body dies.
Our spirit does not die, but goes with God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

No one has ever entered the third Heaven where God sits on His throne. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4, John 3:13.

I'm not familiar with different layers of heaven and thus cannot comment.

The soul, which makes up the conscious part of ones being, is that of thought, action and emotion and when one phyically dies the soul, just like our breath returns back to God as it belongs to Him. It's like what Jesus was telling Martha, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die, John 11:23-26.

Agreed, again.
I even gave the same explanation.

This is also the same in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This mortal will return to the dust of the ground as it is not our physical bodies that will be resurrected, but given new glorified bodies as we will be changed. We will either be raised unto the resurrection of eternal life or eternal damnation, John 5:28, 29.

Agreed.

Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together when we were conceived in our mother's womb.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Agreed.

The body is physical with five senses being sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch that connects with the world.

The soul is the part of the human being that will live on in eternity and with our soul, not our body, is the part of us that is to love God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

In those two verses it speaks about our soul as being in relationship with God and not this fleshly body. It's our soul and spirit that needs regeneration by God's Spirit.

I'll say that our spirit does not need regeneration since it is our spirit that is in tune with God and is our "God part".
It is our soul that requires regeneration...but our spirit (once born again) DOES affect our soul. Whereas before regeneration we might have been critical of persons...our new self teaches us that this is not good. Whereas before we could not forgive...(soul) now our spirit teaches us to forgive....
etc.

The life we have here on earth is temporal as our physical bodies will die and return to the dust and be remembered no more.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that we are not aware after death?
This would be tantamount to soul sleep...
Please clarify.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Speaking of our glorified bodies as you mentioned previously.
Agreed.

The life and the blood is in Jesus who gives our soul eternal life with the Father by that of the blood sacrifice of Christ through God's grace that we are made righteous by the righteousness of God through the Spiritual rebirth. God is not going to reform our physical bodies that have returned to dust, but will raise us from the grave in new glorified bodies that we know not what we will look like.

Great post !!
Thanks for saying everything better than I ever could!
I do believe we agree on everthinig...could you just clarify
on our awareness after death. Surely if our soul goes to be with God..we will be aware.

 

[Randy]

Jesus on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"

Stephen while being stoned "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling— 3 if indeed, when we have taken it off we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident; even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For all of us must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each may receive recompense for what has been done in the body, whether good or evil.