What is a man?

[Butch5]

I hope I didn't skip any of your posts.
You had said that you and I are the same because we are both living beings and have a soul -- we are living souls.
Surely this is not correct.
I am very different from you.
Maybe I'm a very sensitive person.
Maybe you are a very strong person.
Maybe I fear lions.
Maybe you don't.
Maybe I hate school.
Maybe you love it.

What causes these differences?
The soul of each person is different....
The soul is what makes us...

Jesus had a body. He had a soul, and He certainly had a spirit.
His soul is what controlled His emotions, His will and His mind -- which is different than the brain. The brain is physical,,,the mind is an unseen entity that causes us to reason-

I've posted this image many times.....it explains perfectly the make-up of man.



View attachment 9507



I believe the problem we have is that you are using the O.T. and at that time it was not really known what man consisted of. The philosophers had an idea.

God revealed Himself in the O.T. but the revelation of God has increased with the coming of Jesus.

Ok, then you're essentially saying the OT is wrong, correct? I mean, it's either right or it's wrong. Jesus uses soul the same way the OT did. It's the same throughout the Bible. As I said in the other post, you're giving opinion and speculation. The drawing isn't how the Bible uses soul. The Bible says the BECAME a living soul. That means it wasn't one but then became one.

I didn't say we were the same. I said our being alive was the same. The same thing gives us both life.

I've used scripture before to which you do not reply...but I'll try again:

1 Peter 1:9
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
Above you stated that the soul dies.
Then why would Peter say that our faith saves our soul?
If our soul is saved,,,it keeps on living.

You're assuming it keeps living. The saving of your soul means your life. He's talking about the Resurrection. The believer will be resurrected to life. By saying the saving of your soul he means it's not going to be destroyed at the end.

The Bible is all about the Resurrection, not Reincarnation.

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

A sinner can be saved and this will keep his soul from death....
spiritual death because the soul cannot die.

There's no such thing as spiritual death. At least not pertaining to humans. Again, turning the sinner from his ways is salvation. That's resurrection.

The soul absolutely can die. I've given you Scripture showing that Jesus poured out His soul to death. God told Ezekiel, the soul that sins shall die.
We could say that Jesus poured out his life (soul) to death. We could say that God said to Ezekiel, the person (soul) who sins shall die. The words fit perfectly. As I said before the Bible uses the word soul in two ways, concretely of a living being and abstractly of life. Here I've given you an example of each.

Soul can be used abstractly for life...."a living soul" meaning a person.

But did Jesus give His soul?
What did Jesus give us to save us?
He gave His blood. The Life is in the Blood.

Yes, the soul is in the blood.

Colossians 1:20a
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross;

The soul here means the person.
And it means that the person that sins will die spiritually...
NOT physically. It just says that every person is responsible for their own sins...and not the sins of the father...or other persons.
It's speaking about PERSONS.
Please note that verse 21 goes on to speak about person...
and verses 18 and 19 also are speaking of persons.

The soul means person. That's what I've been saying all along. This passage means that the soul, the person who sins will die. There is no spiritual death. The passage says nothing about anything spiritual. You're imposing that on the passage.

Agreed.
Only God is immortal.
WE are mortal and we will die and be buried.
BUT...I believe, from scripture, that our soul and spirit does not die but only our body. I must have explained something incorrectly.

Then you don't believe we die. You believe body dies, not the person. However, the soul is the person as you said above. I don't know how you get from Scripture that the soul doesn't die when Isaiah said that Jesus poured out His soul to death

John 11:21-26
21Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
22“Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

This chaper is (in the NASB)
The Death and Resurrection of Lazarus

It seems that the resurrection happened ON THAT VERY DAY.

Note verse 24....Martha tells Jesus that she knows Lazarus will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.

Jesus replies: I AM THE RESURRECTION and the life...he who believes in Me will LIVE EVEN IF HE DIES...and those that believe WILL NEVER DIE.

We do not have to wait for the resurrection....
Jesus IS the resurrection and we will never die....
physically yes,,,,but not our soul and not our spirit.
The resurrection will be for our body.

Lazarus wasn't in the resurrection yet. He was brought back to life Just as the other prophets brought people back to life. Paul said that Jesus was the first fruits from the dead. So Jesus was the first to be Resurrected to eternal life.

If You read the passage it's right there that the person dies. Look at the order of events. He lives, he dies, he raised, he never dies. That shows us clearly that eternal is at the Resurrection.

You're making quite a few statements without any support. There is nowhere in the Scriptures that teach us that the soul is the will, mind, or emotions. Do you have anything to support this idea?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, then you're essentially saying the OT is wrong, correct? I mean, it's either right or it's wrong. Jesus uses soul the same way the OT did. It's the same throughout the Bible. As I said in the other post, you're giving opinion and speculation. The drawing isn't how the Bible uses soul. The Bible says the BECAME a living soul. That means it wasn't one but then became one.

I didn't say we were the same. I said our being alive was the same. The same thing gives us both life.

Well Butch...
I can give you all the verses available in the bible....
I think we're just too far apart on this...
What I use for knowing what the soul is comes from knowledge of the human person.

Anyone these days knows what the soul is:
I wonder if you're from the Church of Later Day Saints.
They seem to believe what you do.
I feel I cannot continue unless you want to speak about something very specific to this discussion.

Instead of what is a man...
maybe What Is A Soul....
?

Soul - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok, then you're essentially saying the OT is wrong, correct? I mean, it's either right or it's wrong. Jesus uses soul the same way the OT did. It's the same throughout the Bible. As I said in the other post, you're giving opinion and speculation. The drawing isn't how the Bible uses soul. The Bible says the BECAME a living soul. That means it wasn't one but then became one.

I didn't say we were the same. I said our being alive was the same. The same thing gives us both life.

P.S.
I'm not saying the O.T. is wrong...
I'm saying that they used words differently.
It has brought you to believe the soul is in the blood.
An unbelievable concept.

In the O.T. the heart was spoken of as if it could think...
they didn't have the proper words, so they used analogies or metaphors...or at least what we know them to be today.
We know we do not love with the heart...

Matthew 15:19
19“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Do YOUR evil thoughts come out of the heart?
Does your heart think and reason?

If you cannot accept that this is a metaphor, it makes this discussion impossible.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Scriptures tell us explicitly that Moses died. And, unless you believe that Elijah was about a thousand years old, we have to assume he died. So, can you please explain how they were alive and talking with Jesus on the mountain?

That's ironic. I've addressed everything you've presented. On the other hand you've simply dismissed everything I've presented. You said Moses and Elijah were alive, I went to the Scriptures and showed how that can't be. I said it was a vision and you essentially said, nuh uh.

You brought up the souls in Revelation and said I wrote it off. What I said was Revelation is a book of Symbolism and that we need to establish whether or not the passage literal. You never addressed it again. You made no attempt to show how you believe it was literal.

Sorry friend but I don't think there's any evidence of me just writing things off to fit my theology. If anything I think it's the other way around.

What did Jesus mean when He said:
This very day you will be with me in paradise...
Luke 23:43

 

[Butch5]

Animals also have a soul. Every dog is different,,,every cat is different....they have a body and they have a soul. The soul is what let's each animal be different -- just like us. Some are fearful, some are not...some are friendly, some are not. They do NOT have a spirit since they are not aware of God...

You seem to be stuck in a world of 4,000 years ago and do not take advantage of what we've found out about man in the meantime.

The passage indicates that they "ARE" souls. And yes, the do have a spirit. The breath of life is in all living flesh.

What have we learned in the mean time? I don't see why you're contradicting Scripture. You've said multiple times that the soul doesn't die and yet the Scriptures plainly state that Jesus poured out His soul to death. I'm simply posting what the Bible plainly states. It's the same from Genesis to Revelation.

Whatever you believe a soul to be, Isaiah said that Jesus poured His out to death.

Let me ask you simply:
Could you please state what makes man....
I say it's BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT (if one is born again).

Of what parts do you believe man is made of?

I've done that several times already. I did it in the OP and is a few posts since then.

No B....Mine is not opinion and speculation.
I have given you many verse to support the belief that the life is in the blood and that Jesus gave His life --- blood -- to save us, and that the soul is different from the Spirit and, of course, the body.

It is you that use verses that are not clear and use metaphors and analogies when using the word soul and/or life.
I've refuted each one of your verses.

You say the life is in blood and you say that the soul is not in the blood. You're contradicting yourself. The word translated life in that passage is nephesh. The word translated soul is nephesh. It's the same word. What you saying is,

The nephesh is in the blood.
The nephesh is not in the blood.
It can't be both in the blood and not in the blood. It's one or the other. The translators just pick different words. That's one of the problems, the English reader doesn't know that even though they're reading two different English words it's the same Hebrew word. Now do you see why so many don't understand was a soul is? Now do you understand why I go to the Greek and Hebrew words? The English translators use at least 16 different English words for Nephesh in the Bible. How confusing is that? Imagine if you were writing a book about France and you called it by 16 different names. Do you think people would have trouble following you? Well, that's what they've done with Nephesh, soul.

This is so untrue that I won't even reply to it.
Ask your friendly doctor what is in the blood.


Are you agreeing with me?
THE LIFE IS IN THE BLOOD. I've said this all along. And it is repeated in Leviticus 17:11
An atonement made for the soul?
I could agree with that. It is our soul that must be saved.

Did you look at what I put in red? The words are the same. Life and soul in the passage are the word Nephesh. The same word.

RE James 5:20 (please give the verse)
Agreed,,,but what is being saved?
A body, a soul, a spirit?

The person

I assume you're speaking of
1 thessalonians 5:23
AMPC
And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you through and through [separate you from profane things, make you pure and wholly consecrated to God]; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved sound and complete [and found] blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

If you change the above, as you said, to :
BODY
LIFE
SPIRIT

How does that work and make sense?
Paul is speaking about Jesus keeping us blameless when we come before God.... This IS speaking about the resurrection...
So
Our BODY will be blameless
Our SOUL will be blameless
Of course, our SPIRIT will be blameless

What would it mean that our LIFE will be blameless?
How does changing SOUL to LIFE make sense to you?

It's just a way of saying the whole person. That's why he says complete.

 

[Butch5]

P.S.
I'm not saying the O.T. is wrong...
I'm saying that they used words differently.
It has brought you to believe the soul is in the blood.
An unbelievable concept.

In the O.T. the heart was spoken of as if it could think...
they didn't have the proper words, so they used analogies or metaphors...or at least what we know them to be today.
We know we do not love with the heart...

Matthew 15:19
19“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Do YOUR evil thoughts come out of the heart?
Does your heart think and reason?

If you cannot accept that this is a metaphor, it makes this discussion impossible.

I don't see how your not saying it's wrong. If soul doesn't mean what Gen. 2:7 says then it's wrong. Gen. 2:7 says this is what a soul is. If it's not that then it's wrong.

Sure it's a metaphor. We still use them today. When someone's lover leaves we say they are brokenhearted. Obviously we don't mean the muscle in their chest is broken. We use all kinds of metaphors, just like they did. I have a knot in my stomach. When someone explains something and we say, "I see". It means we understand. It doesn't mean we see the words that they are speaking.

So, if we still use these today how is the OT somehow outdated?

 

[Butch5]

What did Jesus mean when He said:
This very day you will be with me in paradise...
Luke 23:43

I discussed that in post 56

 

[GodsGrace]

The passage indicates that they "ARE" souls. And yes, the do have a spirit. The breath of life is in all living flesh.

What have we learned in the mean time? I don't see why you're contradicting Scripture. You've said multiple times that the soul doesn't die and yet the Scriptures plainly state that Jesus poured out His soul to death. I'm simply posting what the Bible plainly states. It's the same from Genesis to Revelation.

Whatever you believe a soul to be, Isaiah said that Jesus poured His out to death.




I've done that several times already. I did it in the OP and is a few posts since then.




You say the life is in blood and you say that the soul is not in the blood. You're contradicting yourself. The word translated life in that passage is nephesh. The word translated soul is nephesh. It's the same word. What you saying is,

The nephesh is in the blood.
The nephesh is not in the blood.
It can't be both in the blood and not in the blood. It's one or the other. The translators just pick different words. That's one of the problems, the English reader doesn't know that even though they're reading two different English words it's the same Hebrew word. Now do you see why so many don't understand was a soul is? Now do you understand why I go to the Greek and Hebrew words? The English translators use at least 16 different English words for Nephesh in the Bible. How confusing is that? Imagine if you were writing a book about France and you called it by 16 different names. Do you think people would have trouble following you? Well, that's what they've done with Nephesh, soul.






Did you look at what I put in red? The words are the same. Life and soul in the passage are the word Nephesh. The same word.




The person



It's just a way of saying the whole person. That's why he says complete.

Exactly because the same word is used is the reason we must use our intellect to understand the differences.

I understand what you're speaking of with words...
BUT do YOU understand why I cannot take the O.T. literally when it uses words such as soul, spirit, life.....it also says we think with the heart (as my last post states) DO we think with the heart?
The N.T. states things about the heart in a metaphorical way...
we KNOW it is metaphorical and cannot take it literally.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see how your not saying it's wrong. If soul doesn't mean what Gen. 2:7 says then it's wrong. Gen. 2:7 says this is what a soul is. If it's not that then it's wrong.

Sure it's a metaphor. We still use them today. When someone's lover leaves we say they are brokenhearted. Obviously we don't mean the muscle in their chest is broken. We use all kinds of metaphors, just like they did. I have a knot in my stomach. When someone explains something and we say, "I see". It means we understand. It doesn't mean we see the words that they are speaking.

So, if we still use these today how is the OT somehow outdated?

The O.T. is outdated in its expressions.
It cannot be translated literally.


In Genesis 2:7 it states that God breathed LIFE into the man...
and he became a living being.

Can we agree on this?

 

[Butch5]

Well Butch...
I can give you all the verses available in the bible....
I think we're just too far apart on this...
What I use for knowing what the soul is comes from knowledge of the human person.

Anyone these days knows what the soul is:
I wonder if you're from the Church of Later Day Saints.
They seem to believe what you do.
I feel I cannot continue unless you want to speak about something very specific to this discussion.

Instead of what is a man...
maybe What Is A Soul....
?

Soul - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've already stated several times what a soul is. It's the body and the breath of life. The Bible just doesn't agree with your definition soul. You're bringing preconceptions to the text.

 

[Butch5]

Exactly because the same word is used is the reason we must use our intellect to understand the differences.

I understand what you're speaking of with words...
BUT do YOU understand why I cannot take the O.T. literally when it uses words such as soul, spirit, life.....it also says we think with the heart (as my last post states) DO we think with the heart?
The N.T. states things about the heart in a metaphorical way...
we KNOW it is metaphorical and cannot take it literally.

I fail to follow the logic there. You can't follow the OT because it uses metaphors but you can follow the NT even though it uses metaphors?

 

[Butch5]

The O.T. is outdated in its expressions.
It cannot be translated literally.


In Genesis 2:7 it states that God breathed LIFE into the man...
and he became a living being.

Can we agree on this?

If the OT can't be taken literally then neither can the NT because it quotes the OT extensively. The Christians hope comes from the OT. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT.

 

[GodsGrace]

I discussed that in post 56

You didn't tag me...I never saw it or I would have replied...
it's important.

Here's what you said:

edit

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

People say this passage proves people are immediately with Jesus after death. This passage is a good example of how one's preconceptions influence translation. In the original texts there is no punctuation, it has been added by the translators. So, the punctuation has been placed where the translator believes it should be. The translators have chosen to place a comma before the word today. However, that comma could also be placed after the word today.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice above, I've simply moved the comma from before the word today to after it. Now the whole sentence has changed. Now it doesn't have Jesus and the thief in Paradise that day. Instead, it has Jesus saying it that day.

Either way is correct grammatically so either could be correct. That either could be correct means that this passage cannot be used to support the idea that the dead are alive and with Jesus.[/QUOTE]
This is a common argument but has been disproven many times by qualified theologians.

Jesus said VERILY VERILY many times,,,,when did He ever say TODAY I TELL YOU...? I can't think of any.

Why would Jesus say TODAY I TELL YOU...of course He's telling the thief that very day. No. I don't believe the punctuation has anything to do with this.

And could you post a version that DOES put the comma after TODAY... I've never seen one.

In addition to that this passage doesn't say they would be alive in Paradise that day, it simply says they would be there. One has to "assume" that they would be alive. after all, they died on the cross. This means one is bringing a preconception to the text. Also, the Greek word Paradiesos which has been transliterated instead of translated, means a garden. What did the thief ask Jesus? He wanted to be remembered when Jesus came into His Kingdom. He didn't ask where he'd be later that afternoon. If Jesus was telling him where he'd be later that afternoon then the thief's question went unaddressed. However, if Jesus answered his question then Paradise is in the Jesus' Kingdom. In the Greek Old Testament we find the Paradise of Eden which contains the Tree of Life. In Revelation we find the Tree of life in the Paradise of God.

This is pushing it Butch!
They certainly were not going to go back to Eden.
The meaning of paradise is disputed...it does mean garden.
Some believe it means Hades....
and some believe it means heaven.
I really don't care to discuss something that is not concrete in teaching....

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

The Jews expected an earthly kingdom. So, what was Jesus telling this thief? That He would be with Him in the Garden. Peter tells us that the earth will be stored. We know that Christ will reign on the earth in His Kingdom. This is where Paradise will be.

Again, you say things I've never heard and it's not due to lack of study. Could you post any scripture on this?? Thanks.

I've head of the New Earth,,,the New Jerusalem,,,but never the New Paradise....

 

[GodsGrace]

I fail to follow the logic there. You can't follow the OT because it uses metaphors but you can follow the NT even though it uses metaphors?

The opposite is true.
I don't follow ANY metaphors.

I posted
Matthew 15:19
19“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

I'm saying that evil thoughts DO NOT come from the heart...
I'm showing you that metaphors are usesd.

Evil thoughts don't even come from the brain..
They come from THE MIND....which is part of the SOUL.

 

[Butch5]

The opposite is true.
I don't follow ANY metaphors.

I posted
Matthew 15:19
19“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

I'm saying that evil thoughts DO NOT come from the heart...
I'm showing you that metaphors are usesd.

Evil thoughts don't even come from the brain..
They come from THE MIND....which is part of the SOUL.


View attachment 9512

Both the Old and New Testaments have metaphors. To reject one and not the other because one contains metaphors is not logical.

 

[GodsGrace]

If the OT can't be taken literally then neither can the NT because it quotes the OT extensively. The Christians hope comes from the OT. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT.

Agreed.

How did we get the teaching of the Trinity (or Godhead)?
Is the word Trinity in the bible?
Is it a teaching that took years to understand?
Was the year 325 AD pivitol in understanding and confirming what the Trinity is?

Do we know what the hypostatic union is?
Where is this in Scripture?

Some teachings we know because we have learned.

 

[GodsGrace]

Both the Old and New Testaments have metaphors. To reject one and not the other because one contains metaphors is not logical.

I agree!
I said I DO NOT accept metaphors as a doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've already stated several times what a soul is. It's the body and the breath of life. The Bible just doesn't agree with your definition soul. You're bringing preconceptions to the text.

The BODY is NOT part of the SOUL.

 

[Butch5]

You didn't tag me...I never saw it or I would have replied...
it's important.

Here's what you said:

edit

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Lk. 23:43 KJV)

People say this passage proves people are immediately with Jesus after death. This passage is a good example of how one's preconceptions influence translation. In the original texts there is no punctuation, it has been added by the translators. So, the punctuation has been placed where the translator believes it should be. The translators have chosen to place a comma before the word today. However, that comma could also be placed after the word today.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Notice above, I've simply moved the comma from before the word today to after it. Now the whole sentence has changed. Now it doesn't have Jesus and the thief in Paradise that day. Instead, it has Jesus saying it that day.

Either way is correct grammatically so either could be correct. That either could be correct means that this passage cannot be used to support the idea that the dead are alive and with Jesus.

This is a common argument but has been disproven many times by qualified theologians.

Jesus said VERILY VERILY many times,,,,when did He ever say TODAY I TELL YOU...? I can't think of any.

Why would Jesus say TODAY I TELL YOU...of course He's telling the thief that very day. No. I don't believe the punctuation has anything to do with this.

And could you post a version that DOES put the comma after TODAY... I've never seen one.

No, it hasn't been disproved. It can't be. There is no punctuation in the original text. Translators put it where they "think" it should go.

This is pushing it Butch!
They certainly were not going to go back to Eden.
The meaning of paradise is disputed...it does mean garden.
Some believe it means Hades....
and some believe it means heaven.
I really don't care to discuss something that is not concrete in teaching....

Not at all. What's pushing it is saying they were alive later that day. We can read the passage. They all died. The Scriptures state that. To then claim that they were alive after the Scriptures say they died is pushing it.

Again, you say things I've never heard and it's not due to lack of study. Could you post any scripture on this?? Thanks.

I've head of the New Earth,,,the New Jerusalem,,,but never the New Paradise....

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

I agree!
I said I DO NOT accept metaphors as a doctrine.

That's not what I'm saying. You're rejecting the OT because it has metaphors, yet you not rejecting the NT which also has metaphors.