Jim Parker
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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What Is Baptism?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
This thread has got me wondering....has the church been mistaken and essentially using what it understands to be three different names? What is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Scripture seems to point to Jesus when referencing baptism. So was Jesus perhaps telling His disciples to baptize in the name of Jesus because that name, above all names, encompasses the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ergo, God?
Jim Parker
Member
If that were the case then there would be evidence of the Church following that pattern in the writings of the early church. The exact opposite is the case; baptism is reported to have been done using the formula which Jesus instructed His apostles to follow.
When we read in Acts that people were baptized into the name of Jesus, keep in mind that you are reading LITERATURE, not the transcript of a video tape. The expression of baptism in Jesus' name does not mean that they did not use the formula which Jesus instructed them to use but, rather, it is a reference to the use of that formula.
We have the example described in the late 1st/early 2nd century catechismal teaching; the Didache, which says:
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
iakov the fool
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chessman
Member
What is "these things", chapters 1-6?
Matthew 1:23 (NASB) “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”
Some people call His name Immanuel.
Luke 10:9, 17(NASB) and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ ...
The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
What's not His name is 'a formula'.
The truth is, no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
The truth is, the one thief on the cross was baptized by no man, by no water, and certainly not be any formula consisting of seven chapters. Yet somehow, He knew who the King of all kings was.
Luke 23:42-43 (NASB) And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Jim Parker
Member
The truth is that you do not make church doctrine of baptism based on the circumstance of one individual, one time in all eternity, for whom it was physically impossible to be baptized. (Unless you have a concept of God as some kind of jerk who would say, "Sorry, no can do; you weren't baptized in water so go to hell.")
However, you DO base church doctrine on the very specific words of Jesus. And those very specific words are: (Mat 28:18-20)
All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
(That means HE gives the orders.)
(1st order) Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
(2nd order) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(3rd order) teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
Baptizing the disciples in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one of the things that Jesus commanded the apostles to do and which the new disciples are to observe. (And, just in case you are not sure, to "Observe" means, to "Obey.")
And, of course, you overlook the fact that Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit AFTER the thief had died and been buried. So Jesus' command to baptize disciples of all nations had not been given yet.
A further fact is that the the thief was still under the Old Covenant because Jesus had not yet died, been buried, risen from the grave, ascended into heaven, and the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.
So, putting forth the thief on the cross as any kind of an argument for or against baptism is totally illogical.
iakov the fool
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chessman
Member
The truth is, church doctrine (old or new) does not send people to paradise, Jesus does. Nor does any baptism formula (old or new) save people, Jesus does. Proof being the thief on the cross and the fact that all things (including salvation, baptism and "all things") have been handed over to Him (Jesus). It is by Jesus' will (not church doctrine) that people come to know Him.
Luke 10:22 (NASB) All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
Jim Parker
Member
Church doctrine is Jesus' teaching.
If you refuse to follow Jesus' teaching you won't see the kingdom of God.
IF you don't do what Jesus tells you to do then Jesus is not your Lord and you won't see the kingdom of God.
Jesus said to Repent and believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15) The thief did.
It is by hearing the Gospel that people come to know Him.
Rom 10:17... faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
chessman
Member
Says who?
Church doctrine is church teaching.
Doctrine means teaching.
Did the thief on the cross follow Jesus' teaching?
Says who?
Jesus, The Name above all names.
The only Begotten Son has the same name as His Father.
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. John 17:11 NIV [One of the only verse's I quote from the NIV]
JLB
You mean like tradition?
Can you show us where the Apostles ever baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
If you can't, I will be glad to show you.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3
This is the name of the Father, and the Son, as well as the Holy Spirit.
If you believe there is some other Lord, than the Lord Jesus, please show us the scripture that teaches this.
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
Yes doctrine is teaching.
Church doctrine SHOULD BE Jesus' teaching.
If your church doctrine is not Jesus' teaching then find a church that does teach Jesus teaching.
As best he could, yes.
Again; the thief on the cross is an exceptional example. Only two people were crucified with Jesus. One of them repented.
My: "IF you don't do what Jesus tells you to do then Jesus is not your Lord and you won't see the kingdom of God."
Says Jesus. Jhn 8:51
What do you think "believe" means? Agree? Acknowledge?
Jim Parker
Member
I mean like the teaching of the apostles which is also called the "tradition of the apostles." (GR.: παράδοσις paradosis)
As in:
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15)
And:
But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. (2Th 3:6)
And as in:
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. (1Co 11:2)
I don't need to. Jesus commanded it. I have no reason to doubt that that was their practice as is indicated by the witness of the early church.
I am bewildered that you have a problem with what Jesus commanded us to do.
Can you explain why you have a problem with Jesus command?
Jesus is NOT the name of the Father or the Holy Spirit.
Where do you get that nonsense??
I believe in one God the Father almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten, Begotten of the Father before all worlds, light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. and the third day he arose again according to the scriptures and ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father; and he shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom will have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified who spoke by the prophets.
We OK so far? Do you have a problem with any of that? That's the basic beliefs of the Church.
The scripture teaches that God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each one a separate hypostasis of the Godhead. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with Christianity.
There was never a time when anyone called the Father "Jesus" or the Holy Spirit "Jesus."
So what is your point?
Jim Parker
Member
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi JLB
I said very much the same concepts in the O.P.
Here it is:
There are 3 baptisms in the New Testament:
1. The baptism of the spirit --- which is conversion. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
2. Water baptism --- Is there a difference between John's baptism and water baptism Jesus spoke of in Mathew 28:19?
3. The baptism of fire --- Acts 1:8 and Acts 2:3-4. Are these two the same type of baptism?
If not, how is each one explained?
I also understand the baptism of fire and Spirit to be the same.
You say that Jesus' name contains all names. This is also true of the Father and the Holy Ghost.
All 3 are 1 and in every 1 are all 3.
There is one God consisting of 3 persons, so any name would mean all of them - all three.
Jesus said to baptize in the three names, for whatever reason, maybe to give Glory to each one individually since each one is also an individual with His own attributes and works.
The Apostles did not mention baptizing that way for the reason I've explained 3 times already and will not attempt to explain it again.
I'll only say that baptizing in Jesus' name is a TYPE of baptism; different from John's baptism.
In Mathew 28:19 Jesus instructs the Apostles as to the FORM of baptism --- HOW it is to be done.
In any case, what Jesus instructs supersedes what the Apostles did.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
WHAT DOES THE DIDACHE SAY ABOUT BAPTISM?
Probaby written in about the year 90 AD
Perhaps the early 100's by those who knew the Apostles.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
The Didache On The Baptism Of Converts
Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. But if you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. And before the baptism let the one baptizing and the who who is to be baptized fast, as well as any others who are able. Also, you must instruct the one who is to be baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.
Didache, ch. 7 (early 2nd century) trans. Michael W. Holmes, The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations, 3rd edn (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2007).
Probaby written in about the year 90 AD
Perhaps the early 100's by those who knew the Apostles.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
The Didache On The Baptism Of Converts
Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. But if you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. And before the baptism let the one baptizing and the who who is to be baptized fast, as well as any others who are able. Also, you must instruct the one who is to be baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.
Didache, ch. 7 (early 2nd century) trans. Michael W. Holmes, The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations, 3rd edn (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2007).
Thank you for using scripture to make your point.
Like I said, if there were scriptures teaching us the Apostles Baptized in the name of the father, Son and Holy Spirit, then I would be reading from you, like the above example.
Traditions that are set forth by Jesus, and His Apostles in scripture, as examples are for us to follow.
Example of the tradition of Baptizing people as set forth by the Apostles in scripture:
- Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38
- For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:16
- When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19:3
The traditions or ordinances or commandments of men are found outside of scripture.
Knowing the difference is important.
And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ Mark 7:7
JLB
Do you believe there are three different names for the Father and Son and Holy Spirit?
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9
In the old testament, the Hebrew word or God is Elohiym, which is plural and covers all Three.
This scripture was just posted in another thread, and conveys this simple truth.
The Spirit of Christ speaking through Isaiah:
“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me.”
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
Isaiah 48:16-17
What is the Name of the Father, if not Jesus; The name above all names?
What is the Name of the Holy Spirit, if not Jesus; The name above all names?
JLB
Yes, I agree.
Here is the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: Jesus, the name above all Names.
What, in your opinion, is the name of the Son?
JLB