What is knowing?

[childeye]

I'm not sure. <-------that would mean I do not "know" if we are or not.

However, when I know something, I am sure of it. Faith is "knowing" something without any/all 'human' proof.

When you think about it, anyone who wants to can debate whether someone actually knows something or not, even if you feel there is absolutely zero doubt. For instance, the most basic in your face argument we have today is that there is no God. As in, there is not a Creator.

How much "proof" do you need to "know" there is a Creator?

A person could seriously argue back and forth about anything. However, that does not negate the fact that we can know something. Just because person "a" does not accept the proof that person "b" has, does not mean that person "b" does not know what they do. It simply means that person "a" does not know what person "b" does.

Yes we are dealing with semantics. One word or phrase can carry more than one meaning, so that two people can be using the same word but talking about two different things. In this case "knowing" there is a Creator is not the same as "knowing" the Creator. I "know" there are people living in Cancun, but I don't "know" any people living in Cancun.

This is why it is important to qualify our words and very important to qualify them in our thoughts, lest we be misled. If you recall faith is about things hoped for rather than dreaded. Therefore it is more applicable in that sense to the Character of God than to the existence of God. When Jesus says to believe in me, he is actually saying to trust in me.

 

[Nathan]

Yes we are dealing with semantics. One word or phrase can carry more than one meaning, so that two people can be using the same word but talking about two different things. In this case "knowing" there is a Creator is not the same as "knowing" the Creator. I "know" there are people living in Cancun, but I don't "know" any people living in Cancun.

This is why it is important to qualify our words. If you recall faith is about things hoped for rather than dreaded. Therefore it is more applicable in that sense to the Character of God than to the existence of God. When Jesus says to believe in me, he is more saying to trust in me.

Hmmmm, well, I see what your saying, but your examples use the same word, in the same way, just adding different words to it, making the sentences say different things. The word "knowing" and "know" stay the same and have the same definition in both cases.

To bring it back full circle, I can know the truth - but I doubt I will know all that is truth. I can know if something is true or false - but I doubt I will know all that is true and false.

Faith is knowing something(whatever it is you have faith in) without having 'proof' of it.

 

[childeye]

Hmmmm, well, I see what your saying, but your examples use the same word, in the same way, just adding different words to it, making the sentences say different things. The word "knowing" and "know" stay the same and have the same definition in both cases.

To bring it back full circle, I can know the truth - but I doubt I will know all that is truth. I can know if something is true or false - but I doubt I will know all that is true and false.

Faith is knowing something(whatever it is you have faith in) without having 'proof' of it.

I don't deserve my wife. Now did I say something good or something bad about my wife?

 

[Nathan]

I don't deserve my wife. Now did I say something good or something bad about my wife?

You said something good about her.

"Deserve" is something that you earn - good or bad.

However, you used the negative of it to describe yourself. So then the positive(good) belongs to her.

Now, if you say, "my wife does not deserve me", then you are placing the negative on her, which would be bad.

 

[Nathan]

Now, that is based purely off your words. If I 'knew' you then I might 'know' you were speaking differently, and you did not write exactly what you meant.

 

[childeye]

You said something good about her.

"Deserve" is something that you earn - good or bad.

However, you used the negative of it to describe yourself. So then the positive(good) belongs to her.

Now, if you say, "my wife does not deserve me", then you are placing the negative on her, which would be bad.

Of course I purposely omitted qualifying my words. So that since you don't know neither my wife or myself, you can't be certain what I mean no matter which way I say it. In such instances if you were to make a determination, you're actually projecting on to me something about yourself.

Note: We marry for better or worse.
So if I say that I don't deserve my wife and I am meaning that my wife is better than me, then I have portrayed her in the positive and myself in the negative. However the fact that I would claim the negative rather than giving it to her, then it is actually a positive reflection of myself. On the other hand if I were meaning to portray her as lesser than myself, then even though I've claimed the positive, it is still a negative reflection of myself. Therefore in the objective view to say we deserve one another always tends to be a negative inference.

 

[Nathan]

Of course I purposely omitted qualifying my words. So that since you don't know neither my wife or myself, you can't be certain what I mean no matter which way I say it. In such instances if you were to make a determination, you're actually projecting on to me something about yourself.

Note: We marry for better or worse.
So if I say that I don't deserve my wife and I am meaning that my wife is better than me, then I have portrayed her in the positive and myself in the negative. However the fact that I would claim the negative rather than giving it to her, then it is actually a positive reflection of myself. On the other hand if I were meaning to portray her as lesser than myself, then even though I've claimed the positive, it is still a negative reflection of myself. Therefore in the objective view to say we deserve one another always tends to be a negative inference.

And, no matter what you meant, what you said was a positive.

I can be certain based on what you said.

Now, if you told me that you lie sometimes, then I could not be sure - I could not 'know' what you meant.

God never lies. It's impossible. So, we know that what He says is always truthful.

 

[childeye]

Hmmmm, well, I see what your saying, but your examples use the same word, in the same way, just adding different words to it, making the sentences say different things. The word "knowing" and "know" stay the same and have the same definition in both cases.

To bring it back full circle, I can know the truth - but I doubt I will know all that is truth. I can know if something is true or false - but I doubt I will know all that is true and false.

Faith is knowing something(whatever it is you have faith in) without having 'proof' of it.

Mt point is that knowing God as pertains to His Person or Character is different than knowing there's a Creator. The knowledge of God that comes in the Christ is the knowledge of His Person and Character and must be received by faith.

 

[childeye]

And, no matter what you meant, what you said was a positive.

I can be certain based on what you said.

Now, if you told me that you lie sometimes, then I could not be sure - I could not 'know' what you meant.

God never lies. It's impossible. So, we know that what He says is always truthful.

That's clever. Would a dishonest man ever say that he lies? You don't know me. You're projecting yourself. You don't see any reason to lie, so therefore you expect that from me also. Your evaluation is therefore based on faith, things hoped for.

 

[Nathan]

That's clever. Would a dishonest man ever say that they lie? But of course you're projecting yourself. You don't see any reason to lie so therefore you expect that from me also. Your evaluation is therefore based on faith.

Of course.

I try to always see the positive side of things. So, when it comes to fellow humans, I always try to think good.

However, when it comes to God, I do not have to think good - I know good. If I doubted for a moment that it was impossible for God to lie, then that changes everything.

But, the very thing that it is impossible for Him to lie makes everything I know about Him to be true.

There are a lot of things I do not know. Maybe some day I will. But that which I do know, I would have to deny Him in order to believe it is not true.

You, on the other hand, I will consider truthful(knowing you have the ability to lie), until you 'prove' otherwise.

 

[childeye]

Of course.

I try to always see the positive side of things. So, when it comes to fellow humans, I always try to think good.

However, when it comes to God, I do not have to think good - I know good. If I doubted for a moment that it was impossible for God to lie, then that changes everything.

But, the very thing that it is impossible for Him to lie makes everything I know about Him to be true.

There are a lot of things I do not know. Maybe some day I will. But that which I do know, I would have to deny Him in order to believe it is not true.

You, on the other hand, I will consider truthful(knowing you have the ability to lie), until you 'prove' otherwise.

So our Image of God defines the good. But if the image of god were to be a corrupt image, then our definition of what is good is also corrupted. Therefore some people see the Glory of God in Christ, while others see foolishness.

 

[Nathan]

So our Image of God defines the good. But if the image of god were to be a corrupt image, then our definition of what is good is also corrupted.

Actually no, unless I misunderstand you.

Our image of God does not define the good. He does, and we see it and know it because of faith. He gives us faith(knowledge of Him) to know that He is good and true.

The person who does not know God does have a corrupt image of Him. Reason being, he does not have faith - therefore he cannot know. What he does have faith in is something other than God.

 

[childeye]

Actually no, unless I misunderstand you.

Our image of God does not define the good. He does, and we see it and know it because of faith. He gives us faith(knowledge of Him) to know that He is good and true.

The person who does not know God does have a corrupt image of Him. Reason being, he does not have faith - therefore he cannot know. What he does have faith in is something other than God.

Case in point: If our imagery of God does not define the good, then why is the righteousness of God revealed in the Christ? The term Messiah actually means the true Image of God sent by God. In other words there are false images of god that corrupt men's hearts and minds. Through belief in the Christ, men's minds are renewed and our spirit is quickened.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Free]

The term Messiah actually means the true Image of God sent by God.

Which Hebrew word for Messiah means that?

 

[childeye]

Which Hebrew word for Messiah means that?

That is what The Anointed One is, The True Image of God sent by God. It is therefore not any imagery imagined by vain and corruptible men. Glory, Glory, Glory... All Glory be unto God, Whose Word is the Light of men.

 

[Free]

That is what The Anointed One is, The True Image of God sent by God. It is therefore not any imagery imagined by vain and corruptible men. Glory, Glory, Glory... All Glory be unto God, Whose Word is the Light of men.

You said, "The term Messiah actually means the true Image of God sent by God." But it doesn't, not anywhere that I can see anyway. The term "Messiah" means "anointed one". The root of the word shows this as well.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Case in point: If our imagery of God does not define the good, then why is the righteousness of God revealed in the Christ? The term Messiah actually means the true Image of God sent by God. In other words there are false images of god that corrupt men's hearts and minds. Through belief in the Christ, men's minds are renewed and our spirit is quickened.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

First off, you are, I feel, corkscrewing the image of God into looking like a man, that cannot be ebnfore Jesus

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Just an observation guys, but it's been my experience in previous conversations that when a topic turns to studing words (unless that was the orgional intent of the study), then the topic is usually lost or losing gtound quickly.

Words are important, and very good studies arevcentered on witds themselfs from our meanings, where they came from. And origional meaning from other texts. As well as studing other languages.
But when a topic shifts focus from the origional topic to what we mean by our words (instead of just correcting a misunderstanding), then it's my experiencevthat the topic itslef is list and hone for the remainder of the conversation.

I could be wrong and tou guys will get a good amount out of discussing the term "know." However, in these times O'm reminded of politicians trying to quibble over what they said by saying "it depends on what a person means by 'did.' "

 

[childeye]

You said, "The term Messiah actually means the true Image of God sent by God." But it doesn't, not anywhere that I can see anyway. The term "Messiah" means "anointed one". The root of the word shows this as well.

I obviously anticipated you showing me that the term Messiah means anointed one, since I used that expression (anointed one) deliberately in post #75. So I already knew that, and therefore agree with you.

But what does anointed one mean? It is referencing Jesus who is the Image of the invisible God, Colossians 1:15. Is Jesus sent by God? John 5:23. Scripture identifies the Christ/Messiah/anointed one, as Jesus the True Image of God sent by God.

 

[childeye]

First off, you are, I feel, corkscrewing the image of God into looking like a man, that cannot be ebnfore Jesus

Thanks for the correction, I don't mean to do that. When I say "image of God" I am referring to His Holy Character of Person, and not to a physical appearance.