What is knowing?

[Nathan]

Job 32-36 is probably one of the best passages to understand how someone can absolutely know the truth - and how people often try to suppress the truth in order to justify their own desire to not know the truth.

No where do you read that God does not want people to know the truth - no where. The only reason why people do not know the truth is because they refuse to know it.

Jhn 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

If the Father wants us to worship Him in spirit and truth - then He will give it to us.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Job 32-36 is probably one of the best passages to understand how someone can absolutely know the truth - and how people often try to suppress the truth in order to justify their own desire to not know the truth.

No where do you read that God does not want people to know the truth - no where. The only reason why people do not know the truth is because they refuse to know it.

Jhn 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

If the Father wants us to worship Him in spirit and truth - then He will give it to us.

This is not exactly what I had in mind in the OP. But one question: Do you know all truth in the way it can be know (in the same way God knows)?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Here's what we should see in these discussions according to the OP
"I think this is a good question for anyone but particularly a good one for Christians to consider. It's deeply philosophical and can get rather muddy at times, but it's important to try to get clarity on what exactly is the nature of knowing.

I believe we can know things but only in a finite sense. That is to say, we actually don't know them in the same way God knows. We simply are convinced, for whatever reasons, that a particular thing is true.

The best explanation of knowing I've found is this: "being personally convinced of the truth of something."

There have been many times throughout my life where someone I was talking to wanted to convince me of the truth of something. Often I would hear that the Holy Spirit guided them to their conclusion. I've always wondered about that. How can two people, guided by the same HS, come to two different conclusions?

I often hear quoted John 16:13 However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

It is of course taken out of context since it can't possibly mean "all truth" that can possibly be known (since we don't know everything and never will).

So when we speak of knowing, aren't we simply saying that we are convinced of the truth of a proposition but not saying that we know with the same certainty as God knows?"

The quotes in red are the questions of the OP. Those are the things we should be addressing directly.

 

[Papa Zoom]

So to make it simple, just respond to each one of these:

*I believe we can know things but only in a finite sense. We simply are convinced, for whatever reasons, that a particular thing is true.

*The best explanation of knowing I've found is this: "being personally convinced of the truth of something."

*How can two people, guided by the same HS, come to two different conclusions?

*when we speak of knowing, aren't we simply saying that we are convinced of the truth of a proposition but not saying that we know with the same certainty as God knows?"

 

[childeye]

Thank you for the sympathy, but she's in a better place now. I bring her up though for the observation that I saw from her experiences. She believed she would be healed and she believed that to come from God. I think this was both from outside encouragement from other people and from her own experiences that she believed God had promised this for her. Who can say her beliefs are wrong? Who can say they wouldn't fall into a simular hope? When we are in pain we seek hope, strength, reassurance. If anyone finds it, even if it isn't true, how many hold on to that hope, and strengthen that hope so as to not fall into a despair? She was a woman who loved God and held a lot of faith. My point is that if this can happen to her, it can happen to any of us.

The truth is not always known, nor is it always obvious to see. I'll take your examples Childeye. 1+1= 2. This is true with regard to math and simple equations. But two is not always greater then one and a pair of one's don't automatically make a two. For instance if you have one rock. A large rock you can break it apart and have a larger number of rocks without actually changing the amount of rock you have. In this example two or three or seven or eight are really just pieces broken apart of the first rock. Then if you have one pound and one foot, you can not say you have two of either. All you can say is that you have one of one thing and one of another. The logic behind 1+1=2 is true if there is nothing else to consider into the equation.

As for God being Truth, I don't disagree with you, but I disagree with whether God can be disbelieved. The truth is rejected many times by many people, and simularily God is rejected by people as well. To those people it's not that the truth doesn't exist, it's that they don't recoginize that it is the truth. The fact that God does exist,doesn't meant they accept God, or that they recoginize Him to be there.

This is why I say be careful about philosophical stances. Our observations can thwart our philosophies, and our philosophies can lead us to wrong conclusions. Consider Job's three friends who came to consol Job in his grief. We as the readers know behind the scene what was occurring and why Job was suffering. But the three friends did not. By their logic they came to the conclusion that Job was at fault for his suffering, and his repentance would bring it all back. In the mist of Job losing his children (10 of them I think?) and losing his health to the degree of having sores cover his entire body, his friends offer little comfort in his suffering.

When I said that God is synonymous with Truth you don't disagree, but you disagree with whether God can be disbelieved. Disagree with who? There's nothing in my posts that declares that people cannot deny the Truth when they see it (dishonesty). Nor do I disagree that some people can honestly think they know, and don't actually know (blindness). In fact, in post #8, I outlined specifically why all things are necessarily built upon faith.

Now picture this: There's a teacher at a school for children. The teacher takes two rocks and shows the class that one rock plus one rock makes two rocks. But one little boy is bored and doesn't like being instructed in what is so obvious. So he takes a hammer and breaks one rock into several pieces and says, "I can make it so that one plus one doesn't equal two". Everybody laughed at how clever the boy was.

So also, I'm not discussing philosophy, I'm discussing what is a truism.

 

[Nathan]

This is not exactly what I had in mind in the OP. But one question: Do you know all truth in the way it can be know (in the same way God knows)?

It is impossible for any human, or anything, to know all truth in the way God does. It's so beyond question that it should not be an issue.

The issue is can we know if something is true or false. When presented with knowledge of something, can a person know if it is true knowledge or false knowledge?

The person with the Spirit of God in them can know if something is true or false.

What the whole idea revolves around, is the fact some say we cannot know if knowledge we are presented with is true, or false. We absolutely can know if we listen to the Spirit of God.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

So to make it simple, just respond to each one of these:

Sounds fair Papa Zoom. Here is my contribution to those things.

*I believe we can know things but only in a finite sense. We simply are convinced, for whatever reasons, that a particular thing is true.

*The best explanation of knowing I've found is this: "being personally convinced of the truth of something."

I think there is a deeper knowledge that God gives. Jesus amazed his disciples and those He taught when he told them things no ine should know with out supernatural knowledge. Jesus told one disciple were he doing before he came to meet Jesus; Jesus did the same to a woman by a well telling her of her life's events. Even told Peter what he would do in the future warning that Peter would deny Jesus 3 times. I can't remember which prophet did this but but one prophet took a hard look at a man and told him what he would do in the futute. In that very night it csme true tgd man went out and killed a king. (I'll try to look up the verses, hope I'm thinking of them accrately.

It is with these things in mind that I think and hope it could be true when someone says they know something from God.

*How can two people, guided by the same HS, come to two different conclusions?

*when we speak of knowing, aren't we simply saying that we are convinced of the truth of a proposition but not saying that we know with the same certainty as God knows?"

Both Peter and Paul had the Holy Spirit. But Paul corrected Peter once regarding his attitude to gentiles while he was in the presence of Jews.

As for knowledge I'd still add to your discription that knowledge is being convinced of something, but also being right about it as well. Sometimes we are right about something but it was only a good guess. Possibly the best guess of seversl but not knowledge about it before hand. Other times we are convinced of domething but were in error about it. In those cases we really didn't know it.

 

[childeye]

So to make it simple, just respond to each one of these:

*I believe we can know things but only in a finite sense. We simply are convinced, for whatever reasons, that a particular thing is true.

*The best explanation of knowing I've found is this: "being personally convinced of the truth of something."

*How can two people, guided by the same HS, come to two different conclusions?

*when we speak of knowing, aren't we simply saying that we are convinced of the truth of a proposition but not saying that we know with the same certainty as God knows?"

I accept your definition of knowing, but it doesn't seem as if you have posed your questions in consideration of what pertains to faith. Why?

I've already said this: Hence all things are built upon faith, and therefore the only true interpretation of faith is that God is Eternal. We therefore can never prove or know that God is Eternal. But we can prove and know that it is more right to believe that He is Eternal than right to believe that He is not.
So what is Eternal knowledge? To know God is to dwell in faith, and to dwell in eternal darkness is to never know God.

 

[Nathan]

*I believe we can know things but only in a finite sense. We simply are convinced, for whatever reasons, that a particular thing is true.

We can only know things in a finite sense. However, we can know that whatever we do know is true or false - but only based on God's Spirit telling us.

*The best explanation of knowing I've found is this: "being personally convinced of the truth of something."

Knowing is simply knowing. You can know something that is false. It does not have to be true to know it. You do not have to be convinced of the truth of something to know it.

*How can two people, guided by the same HS, come to two different conclusions?

They cannot - unless the two conclusions do not contradict each other. If the conclusions contradict each other, then either one is right or they both are wrong. Jesus spoke of this very thing -

Mat 24:4-5
And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.

Paul gave more detail about this -

2Th 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Its not a matter of not knowing the truth, its a matter of rejecting it - not loving it.

*when we speak of knowing, aren't we simply saying that we are convinced of the truth of a proposition but not saying that we know with the same certainty as God knows?"

When we know something it means we have heard and understood it - whether it is true or false. If we are unsure if something is true or false, then we cannot 'know' it - there will always be doubt. Doubt is erased when someone knows something is true or false. Only the Spirit of God can do this in a person. The world is full of doubt. Since the fall of man, humans have tried to be the ones who decide what is true and what is false.

1Jo 5:4-6
For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

"Our faith" is that which God gives to us in order for us to believe. God is the only way to know if something is true or false - He gives this knowledge to us - and only to us who are in His Son. This faith, the knowledge that comes from God, is supplied by the Spirit of God - the truth.

 

[childeye]

I think it should be said that God is a Spirit, and Truth is a Person. Knowing God is not the same as any finite knowledge. The knowledge of God is received through faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, or in other words that God is ever trustworthy, that he is ever good, that He is Eternal in a Holy sense. So, therefore all things are built upon faith. All things exist to declare His glory. Think of these words, knowledge shall pass away, but Love will never fail. God is Love, and to know God is to know Love.

 

[Papa Zoom]

It is impossible for any human, or anything, to know all truth in the way God does. It's so beyond question that it should not be an issue.
The issue is can we know if something is true or false. When presented with knowledge of something, can a person know if it is true knowledge or false knowledge?
The person with the Spirit of God in them can know if something is true or false.
What the whole idea revolves around, is the fact some say we cannot know if knowledge we are presented with is true, or false. We absolutely can know if we listen to the Spirit of God.

I agree to the degree that one recognizes that it's God who holds the knowlege of all truth and that we can get a partial glimpse into some of it.

In order to know exactly what you mean about knowing if something is true or false (having it revealed to you by the Spirit of God) can you name a few examples? There must be something in your experience that you know to be true because the Spirit revealed it. Also you know something is false because the Spirit revealed it.

 

[Papa Zoom]

We can only know things in a finite sense. However, we can know that whatever we do know is true or false - but only based on God's Spirit telling us.

I'm speaking in general terms of knowing. In the epistemological sense. How do we know what we know. Remember, according to my definition (which I think is correct) to know is "being personally convinced of the truth of something." So I can know things apart from God's Spirit. Atheists know things that are true. I'm not just speaking of Spiritual truths or truths of the faith. I'm speaking of knowing in broader terms.

Knowing is simply knowing. You can know something that is false. It does not have to be true to know it. You do not have to be convinced of the truth of something to know it.

Knowing the truth or falsity of a proposition or idea goes well beyond simply knowing. One definition say we have a "clear and concise mental apprehension" of an idea or a thing. In a sense, knowing something doesn't have to involve the truth or falsity of an idea. People at one time "knew" the earth was stationary. That was the "knowledge" at the time. People possessing that information, had a knowing (although a false one) that the earth was a stationary object. They were "personally convinced of the truth of something." Turns out they were wrong. And this is one of my points. We can be totally convinced or the truth of a proposition and believe we have the truth, but in reality, something got in the way and we actually believe as true something that is false.

Case in point: I was taught when I was young that baptism was necessary for salvation. This is still taught today in many churches. I knew the Bible verses to defend this view and got in many discussions about it. My view was that you couldn't really call yourself a Christian if you haven't been baptized. I no longer believe this to be the case. But at one time, I "knew" it and believed it to be biblical. I defended it. Now I defend the opposite. My mind was changed from the same source that gave me the false information: The Bible. So what went wrong? -Me.- Now I could still be wrong. It could be my former view was the correct one. I however am firmly convinced that the position I now hold is the truth. What that experience taught me is to not be so sure of myself that I can't consider the views I hold in light of the fact that I'm a fallible human being with a biased filter.

They cannot - unless the two conclusions do not contradict each other. If the conclusions contradict each other, then either one is right or they both are wrong. Jesus spoke of this very thing -

Yes, but this is my point. I know Christians that differ strongly on issues and they both claim they "know" the truth of the matter. It's been confirmed to both by the Spirit. They prayed for clarity and they both think they got it. Trouble is, one went left, the other right. BTW, they will both say the same thing of the other person: They got it wrong, it wasn't the HS they got it from; they misread the Bible. On and on.

When we know something it means we have heard and understood it - whether it is true or false. If we are unsure if something is true or false, then we cannot 'know' it - there will always be doubt. Doubt is erased when someone knows something is true or false. Only the Spirit of God can do this in a person. The world is full of doubt. Since the fall of man, humans have tried to be the ones who decide what is true and what is false.

I don't want to get into OSAS but the fact of the matter is, I'm sure of my position on the matter and so are you of your position. But we have opposite positions. I get my position straight from God's word. So do you. So either we are both wrong or one of us is wrong. I believe my position is the correct one. However, no way would I bet my eternal life on being right because I recognize it's possible that I could have it wrong. That's because I believe we are all flawed humans and we may think we know the truth, that God has prompted us to believe the truth of the matter, but we're just deceiving ourselves (unknowingly).

"Our faith" is that which God gives to us in order for us to believe. God is the only way to know if something is true or false - He gives this knowledge to us - and only to us who are in His Son. This faith, the knowledge that comes from God, is supplied by the Spirit of God - the truth.

And for me to fully understand what you've said in this last part I'd need specifics. God gives you knowledge of what specifically that you know to be true (or false)?

To be clear, I know God can and does give us some things, just not all things. And many things we think we understand, we're simply in error.

 

[Jim Parker]

deleted by the dummy

Yeah. Me too. I'm not even going to try.

 

[Nathan]

I agree to the degree that one recognizes that it's God who holds the knowlege of all truth and that we can get a partial glimpse into some of it.

In order to know exactly what you mean about knowing if something is true or false (having it revealed to you by the Spirit of God) can you name a few examples? There must be something in your experience that you know to be true because the Spirit revealed it. Also you know something is false because the Spirit revealed it.

Sure, for example, I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that God created the world. I know that God desires me.

When you know something is true, then you know that anything that contradicts it is false.

 

[Nathan]

I'm speaking in general terms of knowing. In the epistemological sense. How do we know what we know. Remember, according to my definition (which I think is correct) to know is "being personally convinced of the truth of something." So I can know things apart from God's Spirit. Atheists know things that are true. I'm not just speaking of Spiritual truths or truths of the faith. I'm speaking of knowing in broader terms.

I'm sorry, I guess I cannot follow you down this road. I do not think that we know anything apart from God - spiritual or not. I am not sure if that is where you are at with this, but I do not think that anything is known apart from God giving a person the ability - spiritual or not.

I think that all 'knowing' comes from God. I think it is He who gives you the ability to know. I know some people think that God created everything, set it in motion, and then is letting things 'evolve'. I believe He works in the world each and every day, every moment of the day.

So Atheists may know things that are 'true', but its only because God has given them that ability. When they do not believe something is true, when it actually is, they are simply denying the truth being given to them.

With the example you gave in regards to baptism and your earlier beliefs, I do understand what your saying. I was there too, but when I believed some things there was always some doubt. There is some doubt now about things I am sure. I would not declare to know something is true if I had doubt about it.

I think you can be 'convinced' and pretty sure about something - believing it is the best probable answer to a question - but when you know the actual 'truth' of something, there is no denying it is truth - it is absolute in your mind. No one or nothing could possible convince you that it is not truth. Its not a matter of not letting others try to convince you, or not listening to others idea's about something, its just that when you do hear other things you 'know' that they are not true.

I know that this discussion started with the whole OSAS talks going on, so its natural to use it as an example. I have been around the block in regards to it. One end of the spectrum to the other, I have at one time 'considered' them all.

I can tell you with absolute certainty, zero doubt, that what I know is true. I know its true because I can say I have no doubt, its not that I might have it wrong, its the fact that I have had it wrong in the past and I knew then that I did not have the truth.

The problem is not that truth is hard to understand, it is that truth is hard to accept. When you accept the truth, you have to lay aside all of your own presuppositions. Humans are corrupt, you can consider our thoughts as a bottle of poison. If you mix your thoughts, even one drop into a glass full of truth, the glass becomes corrupt. It does not make it true because 99% of it is true. One bit of something false makes everything else it is combined with false.

Truth ONLY can come from God. When we think that we can 'know' truth apart from God, then we have fell right back into(or never come out of) the original lie told to human kind.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm sorry, I guess I cannot follow you down this road. I do not think that we know anything apart from God - spiritual or not. I am not sure if that is where you are at with this, but I do not think that anything is known apart from God giving a person the ability - spiritual or not.

I think that all 'knowing' comes from God. I think it is He who gives you the ability to know. I know some people think that God created everything, set it in motion, and then is letting things 'evolve'. I believe He works in the world each and every day, every moment of the day.

So Atheists may know things that are 'true', but its only because God has given them that ability. When they do not believe something is true, when it actually is, they are simply denying the truth being given to them.

With the example you gave in regards to baptism and your earlier beliefs, I do understand what your saying. I was there too, but when I believed some things there was always some doubt. There is some doubt now about things I am sure. I would not declare to know something is true if I had doubt about it.

I think you can be 'convinced' and pretty sure about something - believing it is the best probable answer to a question - but when you know the actual 'truth' of something, there is no denying it is truth - it is absolute in your mind. No one or nothing could possible convince you that it is not truth. Its not a matter of not letting others try to convince you, or not listening to others idea's about something, its just that when you do hear other things you 'know' that they are not true.

I know that this discussion started with the whole OSAS talks going on, so its natural to use it as an example. I have been around the block in regards to it. One end of the spectrum to the other, I have at one time 'considered' them all.

I can tell you with absolute certainty, zero doubt, that what I know is true. I know its true because I can say I have no doubt, its not that I might have it wrong, its the fact that I have had it wrong in the past and I knew then that I did not have the truth.

The problem is not that truth is hard to understand, it is that truth is hard to accept. When you accept the truth, you have to lay aside all of your own presuppositions. Humans are corrupt, you can consider our thoughts as a bottle of poison. If you mix your thoughts, even one drop into a glass full of truth, the glass becomes corrupt. It does not make it true because 99% of it is true. One bit of something false makes everything else it is combined with false.

Truth ONLY can come from God. When we think that we can 'know' truth apart from God, then we have fell right back into(or never come out of) the original lie told to human kind.

This is where I stand also but until I reached here, I thought those that were here already were wrong.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Sure, for example, I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that God created the world. I know that God desires me.

When you know something is true, then you know that anything that contradicts it is false.

Except it's more like when you THINK you know something is true, then you THINK you know that anything that contradicts it is false.

I know examples above with certainty too. I'm not talking about that sort of thing. The Bible is pretty clear on that. The Spirit confirms in my spirit these things too. But there's a lot of things to know out there and we can't know it all and we certainly can't be sure of everything. There's no way for example, for you to be 100% sure (as in you have the knowledge of God) that once a person is truly saved, they can lose their salvation. Controversial issues like that (even the age of the earth) you can't "know." You can be convinced of what you believe to be true, but you can't know (as in does your believe correspond to what is really the Truth of the matter). And when I say you can't know I'm simply saying that it's possible to be wrong on things you believe to be true.

This is why people fight on this forum (and others like it). They think they have a corner on the market of truth of a particular thing. No one does. Sure there are things that we believe with certainty (Jesus is God for example) and that we never entertain the thought that it could possibly be untrue. I've never doubted the claims of Jesus. I've never doubted God's existence. I "know" (am fully convinced) that God exists, is the Creator, and desires for us image bearers to have a relationship with Him (Him meaning the Trinitarian God).

Do you think you have a full understanding of the nature of Hell and of eschatology? Some people in the Faith act as if they do. These types are harmful to the Church IMHO. Is the earth young or old? Are we called to individually go out to evangelize or are we gifted to serve and our evangelism springs from that?

No one has ever been able to adequately explain how the Holy Spirit will help them understand a difficult passage and then explain that passage to me and I'm sitting there saying, "you're full of beans." Their explanation is just plain wrong. It's not what I believe. And I know for a fact that theologians differ on many things. Why is that? I run into this a lot at Bible study. Christians at the same church will have different ideas about things. Because when it comes right down to it, we have filters for everything and those filters get in the way. Then some deceive themselves into believer that God revealed the truth to them about a particular thing. The rest of us have a different view but John over there was told by God Himself so what ya gonna do?

There are essentials in the faith that can be known and are important to every believer. Then there are the non essentials that we will never fully figure out this side of heaven. And we ought to stop pretending we know when we don't.

For example, I think you are wrong on OSAS (I hate that term BTW) and you think I'm wrong. I have biblical passages that I believer support my view and you believe the same for yours. Obviously we both can't be right. I don't think I'm missing anything. And I fully believe that God has led me, by the power of his Spirit, to my conclusions. But as a fallible human being I recognize there could be a problem with how I perceive both how I'm understanding the biblical text and the Spirit's nudging. And so in my mind, I approach such thing with caution. We would all do well here to take a step back and realize that we simply know things in very limited ways There'd be an awful lot of less fighting on these boards if a bit of humility set in. And I'm not aiming at you, just speaking in general.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm sorry, I guess I cannot follow you down this road. I do not think that we know anything apart from God - spiritual or not. I am not sure if that is where you are at with this, but I do not think that anything is known apart from God giving a person the ability - spiritual or not.

I think that all 'knowing' comes from God. I think it is He who gives you the ability to know. I know some people think that God created everything, set it in motion, and then is letting things 'evolve'. I believe He works in the world each and every day, every moment of the day.

So Atheists may know things that are 'true', but its only because God has given them that ability. When they do not believe something is true, when it actually is, they are simply denying the truth being given to them.

With the example you gave in regards to baptism and your earlier beliefs, I do understand what your saying. I was there too, but when I believed some things there was always some doubt. There is some doubt now about things I am sure. I would not declare to know something is true if I had doubt about it.

I think you can be 'convinced' and pretty sure about something - believing it is the best probable answer to a question - but when you know the actual 'truth' of something, there is no denying it is truth - it is absolute in your mind. No one or nothing could possible convince you that it is not truth. Its not a matter of not letting others try to convince you, or not listening to others idea's about something, its just that when you do hear other things you 'know' that they are not true.

I know that this discussion started with the whole OSAS talks going on, so its natural to use it as an example. I have been around the block in regards to it. One end of the spectrum to the other, I have at one time 'considered' them all.

I can tell you with absolute certainty, zero doubt, that what I know is true. I know its true because I can say I have no doubt, its not that I might have it wrong, its the fact that I have had it wrong in the past and I knew then that I did not have the truth.

The problem is not that truth is hard to understand, it is that truth is hard to accept. When you accept the truth, you have to lay aside all of your own presuppositions. Humans are corrupt, you can consider our thoughts as a bottle of poison. If you mix your thoughts, even one drop into a glass full of truth, the glass becomes corrupt. It does not make it true because 99% of it is true. One bit of something false makes everything else it is combined with false.

Truth ONLY can come from God. When we think that we can 'know' truth apart from God, then we have fell right back into(or never come out of) the original lie told to human kind.

I've responded to most of this in a previous post. I do agree that when it comes to Truth, ultimately such Truth can only come from God. He is the Originator of Truth after all. He's given us minds to discern things. Again, that comes from Him. So on that point I think we fully agree.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Except it's more like when you THINK you know something is true, then you THINK you know that anything that contradicts it is false.

I know examples above with certainty too. I'm not talking about that sort of thing. The Bible is pretty clear on that. The Spirit confirms in my spirit these things too. But there's a lot of things to know out there and we can't know it all and we certainly can't be sure of everything. There's no way for example, for you to be 100% sure (as in you have the knowledge of God) that once a person is truly saved, they can lose their salvation. Controversial issues like that (even the age of the earth) you can't "know." You can be convinced of what you believe to be true, but you can't know (as in does your believe correspond to what is really the Truth of the matter). And when I say you can't know I'm simply saying that it's possible to be wrong on things you believe to be true.

This is why people fight on this forum (and others like it). They think they have a corner on the market of truth of a particular thing. No one does. Sure there are things that we believe with certainty (Jesus is God for example) and that we never entertain the thought that it could possibly be untrue. I've never doubted the claims of Jesus. I've never doubted God's existence. I "know" (am fully convinced) that God exists, is the Creator, and desires for us image bearers to have a relationship with Him (Him meaning the Trinitarian God).

Do you think you have a full understanding of the nature of Hell and of eschatology? Some people in the Faith act as if they do. These types are harmful to the Church IMHO. Is the earth young or old? Are we called to individually go out to evangelize or are we gifted to serve and our evangelism springs from that?

No one has ever been able to adequately explain how the Holy Spirit will help them understand a difficult passage and then explain that passage to me and I'm sitting there saying, "you're full of beans." Their explanation is just plain wrong. It's not what I believe. And I know for a fact that theologians differ on many things. Why is that? I run into this a lot at Bible study. Christians at the same church will have different ideas about things. Because when it comes right down to it, we have filters for everything and those filters get in the way. Then some deceive themselves into believer that God revealed the truth to them about a particular thing. The rest of us have a different view but John over there was told by God Himself so what ya gonna do?

There are essentials in the faith that can be known and are important to every believer. Then there are the non essentials that we will never fully figure out this side of heaven. And we ought to stop pretending we know when we don't.

For example, I think you are wrong on OSAS (I hate that term BTW) and you think I'm wrong. I have biblical passages that I believer support my view and you believe the same for yours. Obviously we both can't be right. I don't think I'm missing anything. And I fully believe that God has led me, by the power of his Spirit, to my conclusions. But as a fallible human being I recognize there could be a problem with how I perceive both how I'm understanding the biblical text and the Spirit's nudging. And so in my mind, I approach such thing with caution. We would all do well here to take a step back and realize that we simply know things in very limited ways There'd be an awful lot of less fighting on these boards if a bit of humility set in. And I'm not aiming at you, just speaking in general.

Papa Zoom, it sounds like your not just talking about knowing things but also about discerning what is true verses what isn't true or what is possible.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Papa Zoom, it sounds like your not just talking about knowing things but also about discerning what is true verses what isn't true or what is possible.

Yes. I guess it's the way my brain is wired. I ask a lot of questions, read a lot of books, and only come away with more questions. I know my previous experiences and teaching get in the way of really understanding things. So I try to be open enough to at least honestly explore the ideas of others (and my own) and see if my positions hold up.