What is knowing?

[Nathan]

Except it's more like when you THINK you know something is true, then you THINK you know that anything that contradicts it is false.

I know examples above with certainty too. I'm not talking about that sort of thing. The Bible is pretty clear on that. The Spirit confirms in my spirit these things too. But there's a lot of things to know out there and we can't know it all and we certainly can't be sure of everything. There's no way for example, for you to be 100% sure (as in you have the knowledge of God) that once a person is truly saved, they can lose their salvation. Controversial issues like that (even the age of the earth) you can't "know." You can be convinced of what you believe to be true, but you can't know (as in does your believe correspond to what is really the Truth of the matter). And when I say you can't know I'm simply saying that it's possible to be wrong on things you believe to be true.

This is why people fight on this forum (and others like it). They think they have a corner on the market of truth of a particular thing. No one does. Sure there are things that we believe with certainty (Jesus is God for example) and that we never entertain the thought that it could possibly be untrue. I've never doubted the claims of Jesus. I've never doubted God's existence. I "know" (am fully convinced) that God exists, is the Creator, and desires for us image bearers to have a relationship with Him (Him meaning the Trinitarian God).

Do you think you have a full understanding of the nature of Hell and of eschatology? Some people in the Faith act as if they do. These types are harmful to the Church IMHO. Is the earth young or old? Are we called to individually go out to evangelize or are we gifted to serve and our evangelism springs from that?

No one has ever been able to adequately explain how the Holy Spirit will help them understand a difficult passage and then explain that passage to me and I'm sitting there saying, "you're full of beans." Their explanation is just plain wrong. It's not what I believe. And I know for a fact that theologians differ on many things. Why is that? I run into this a lot at Bible study. Christians at the same church will have different ideas about things. Because when it comes right down to it, we have filters for everything and those filters get in the way. Then some deceive themselves into believer that God revealed the truth to them about a particular thing. The rest of us have a different view but John over there was told by God Himself so what ya gonna do?

There are essentials in the faith that can be known and are important to every believer. Then there are the non essentials that we will never fully figure out this side of heaven. And we ought to stop pretending we know when we don't.

For example, I think you are wrong on OSAS (I hate that term BTW) and you think I'm wrong. I have biblical passages that I believer support my view and you believe the same for yours. Obviously we both can't be right. I don't think I'm missing anything. And I fully believe that God has led me, by the power of his Spirit, to my conclusions. But as a fallible human being I recognize there could be a problem with how I perceive both how I'm understanding the biblical text and the Spirit's nudging. And so in my mind, I approach such thing with caution. We would all do well here to take a step back and realize that we simply know things in very limited ways There'd be an awful lot of less fighting on these boards if a bit of humility set in. And I'm not aiming at you, just speaking in general.

Well, it may come as no surprise - but I am 100% sure that if a person leaves Christ, and turns to another faith, then they do not have salvation.

We might not know 'how' this happens, but we can know that if it does happen, it is either true or false that they will spend eternity away from God. Just because we cannot reason in our minds how something happens, does not mean we cannot know if it is true or not.

You do not have to understand something to know if it is true. That's the point. Only when things are seen from a physical, human perspective, do we say that without understanding it is impossible to know the truth.

Adam and Eve knew the truth. The serpent brought doubt to them in order for them to disregard the truth. If we say its impossible to know the truth, then we put the idea of what is truth into everyone's hands. You cannot say it is possible to know the truth on one subject, then say it is impossible to know on another.

A truthful statement would be saying "I do not think it is possible for me to know the truth about ______". However, it is a false statement to say "It is impossible for __________ to know the truth about ___________". That is stating an absolute(truth) about something you are saying is not absolute - that in and of itself is a contradiction.

Here is the thing Papa, just because you might have some doubt(even though you are convinced mostly) does not mean the other person has to have the same doubt. I have no doubt about some things, and those things that I have no doubt about I know are 100% true. There are other things I do have doubts about, and those things I know can be true or they may be false - I just do not know which one yet. I just know they cannot be both.

I think a lot of things, that are seen by people as not being able to know for absolute truth, simply are that way because it requires us to let go of our own hold of things to grab a hold of truth - it takes faith. Faith is not knowing something for sure, its actually quite the opposite. Faith is knowing something for sure even when you do not understand it.

Its easier to hold on to things we understand rather than to think about things we do not.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Well, it may come as no surprise - but I am 100% sure that if a person leaves Christ, and turns to another faith, then they do not have salvation.

I don't believe those folks were saved in the first place. Evidence of true faith in Christ is endurance to the end. I'm sure of that as well.

We might not know 'how' this happens, but we can know that if it does happen, it is either true or false that they will spend eternity away from God. Just because we cannot reason in our minds how something happens, does not mean we cannot know if it is true or not.

Depends on the "this" to which you refer. I agree that we don't need to know the "how" of something to know the "that."

You do not have to understand something to know if it is true. That's the point. Only when things are seen from a physical, human perspective, do we say that without understanding it is impossible to know the truth.

True but if you lack understanding, how do you know you don't have a misunderstanding?

Adam and Eve knew the truth. The serpent brought doubt to them in order for them to disregard the truth. If we say its impossible to know the truth, then we put the idea of what is truth into everyone's hands. You cannot say it is possible to know the truth on one subject, then say it is impossible to know on another.

It's not impossible to know the truth but we can't know it as God knows it. He's eternal and all knowing so yes, we are limited. And knowing the truth of one thing doesn't mean we can automatically know the truth of another.

A truthful statement would be saying "I do not think it is possible for me to know the truth about ______". However, it is a false statement to say "It is impossible for __________ to know the truth about ___________". That is stating an absolute(truth) about something you are saying is not absolute - that in and of itself is a contradiction.

I'd need an example to clarify here because it's muddy.

Here is the thing Papa, just because you might have some doubt(even though you are convinced mostly) does not mean the other person has to have the same doubt. I have no doubt about some things, and those things that I have no doubt about I know are 100% true. There are other things I do have doubts about, and those things I know can be true or they may be false - I just do not know which one yet. I just know they cannot be both.

I'm not saying you have to have the same doubts. But your being convinced of something isn't a guarantee that you've got it right. There are things I don't doubt, to be sure. Other things make me scratch my head. And you're right, something is either true or false, it cannot be both.

I think a lot of things, that are seen by people as not being able to know for absolute truth, simply are that way because it requires us to let go of our own hold of things to grab a hold of truth - it takes faith. Faith is not knowing something for sure, its actually quite the opposite. Faith is knowing something for sure even when you do not understand it.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Its easier to hold on to things we understand rather than to think about things we do not.

Yes but I'm not wired that way.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Yes. I guess it's the way my brain is wired. I ask a lot of questions, read a lot of books, and only come away with more questions. I know my previous experiences and teaching get in the way of really understanding things. So I try to be open enough to at least honestly explore the ideas of others (and my own) and see if my positions hold up.

Well here's some thoughts for finding out what is true and what isn't. More or less it's my conclusion about a hierarchy of authority concerning truth.

The lowest level of authority voncerning what is true and what isn't is our understanding. Mankind as a whole, not just our indivual understanding. Any field of study and way of reasoning can be a good step to find out what's right and what's trye verse what is pure BS. Our own reasoning or studying another is the first heirarachry of authority of what's true. Anything above this level can correct what we think we know from our understanding. Which in a way makes it difficult because we then have to try to understand what we were corrected on and that's filtered back down to this first level of our understanding.

Wisdom and rationalle chase eachother in potentisl argumwnts tgat never get resolved if there's a disagreement in our idea of the world, and our understanding. And though sometimes good reasoning trumps bad reasoning, I think more often it's experience that says what was not true and what's still probable for explainations. Thus experience trumps our wisdom and should be the there to correct us when we are wrong. This is tge second level of authority for truth.

The third and highest level is of course God. So His direvtion and His Spirit should be the highest authority, with one aspect to test that authority being the bible. I would count the bible as just a smigin below God concerning what is true and what isn't because God won't counter what's in the bible any more then He would counter what He says Himself. So the bible in my opinion is our way of knowing what is from God and what isn't. So that we are not fooled by any philosophy that claims itself to be God's. That said, I think from this conversation I'd have to add a bit to this theory of finding the truth, and that that God can just grant us wisdom and truth. If He so chooses.

 

[Nathan]

I don't believe those folks were saved in the first place. Evidence of true faith in Christ is endurance to the end. I'm sure of that as well.

There is a difference between believing something, and knowing something to be true. Do you know for absolute truth they were not saved? If you think about it, what I said that is, I said if they left Christ. Now, according to what we know is true about salvation - can a person be in Christ and not be saved?

Depends on the "this" to which you refer. I agree that we don't need to know the "how" of something to know the "that."

The "this" is how they leave Christ. God has shown time and again that He shows mercy on who He will, and others He hardens. In other words, some people He gives more 'time'(in our sense of the word) to, and others He does not.

Example: King Saul and King David. Both sinned against God, Saul had the Spirit of God removed - David was given time to repent. We do not understand what the difference is for absolute truth, we can 'suppose' things - but we do not know exactly why one was shown more mercy than the other.

True but if you lack understanding, how do you know you don't have a misunderstanding?

Misunderstandings are obvious to those involved. You know if you do not have understanding about something. You might try to convince yourself that you do not, but if you are 'truthful' with yourself, you will know that you do not understand.

I do not understand why sin had to come into the world. I absolutely do not understand it. I have idea's of why, and I can reason in my head why - but I do not fully understand it. However, I know its true - sin exists and is very real.

I'd need an example to clarify here because it's muddy.

I'm not sure how to clarify it. You can fill in the blanks with just about anything.

I'm not saying you have to have the same doubts. But your being convinced of something isn't a guarantee that you've got it right. There are things I don't doubt, to be sure. Other things make me scratch my head. And you're right, something is either true or false, it cannot be both.

Its not a matter of being convinced - its a matter of having zero doubt. You can be convinced of something by just having what you know outweigh what you do not. If something is mostly true(even though that is an oxymoron), then you can be convinced that it probably is.

However, if something is absolutely true, 100%, you are not just convinced it is true - you know it is true. Faith is knowing something is true even when you do not have physical evidence of it. Assurance + Conviction = Knowing = Faith.

Look up all the examples of faith in the Gospels. The people who showed faith had no doubt, and the one that had 'some' doubt "knew" that Jesus could even change that.

This does kind of transition into the faith side of things, but really faith and knowing go hand in hand. Doubt cannot exist in faith, but that does not mean it does not happen to those who have faith. I believe, personally, that doubt is a way we are trained. When we have faith about something, then doubt comes, it makes us make a decision - do I continue to believe what I do, or do I believe what I have been presented with.

When this happens, and we continue to believe what is true - then our faith grows. Other times, doubt is what brings us to the point of making the first choice between truth and falsehood. And yet other times, if we step away from our faith, to believe in what doubt brought, we learn yet again what we believe is true.

The number one thing that we cannot do is live in doubt, yet that is where the enemy wants us to reside.

 

[childeye]

Truth/God is that which gives the precise meanings of words such as knowledge of, and ignorance of. This is self -evident.

Knowing God/Truth is dependent upon faith.
Hebrews 11:3, 6.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To exclude this Truth in any moral/immoral application of knowing, already guarantees that any attempt to distinguish Truth from untruth, or in other words, right from wrong, will fail. Romans 10:2-4, 10.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Truth/God is that which gives the precise meanings of words such as knowledge of, and ignorance of. This is self -evident.

Knowing God/Truth is dependent upon faith.
Hebrews 11:3, 6.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To exclude this Truth in any moral/immoral application of knowing, already guarantees that any attempt to distinguish Truth from untruth, or in other words, right from wrong, will fail. Romans 10:2-4, 10.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Good post. Good stuff there thanks for that addition. Important to remember for sure.

 

[childeye]

Good post. Good stuff there thanks for that addition. Important to remember for sure.

I essentially had said the same thing in my first post on this thread:

Hence all things are built upon faith, and therefore the only true interpretation of faith is that God is Eternal. We therefore can never prove or know that God is Eternal. But we can prove and know that it is more right to believe that He is Eternal than right to believe that He is not. And this is the foundation of all Truth that can be known. Since lies are an afterthought to what is true, every lie ever invented serves to change faith into unfaith.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I essentially had said the same thing in my first post on this thread:

Hence all things are built upon faith, and therefore the only true interpretation of faith is that God is Eternal. We therefore can never prove or know that God is Eternal. But we can prove and know that it is more right to believe that He is Eternal than right to believe that He is not. And this is the foundation of all Truth that can be known. Since lies are an afterthought to what is true, every lie ever invented serves to change faith into unfaith.

Sometimes it takes me several readings for stuff to sink in.

 

[childeye]

Sometimes it takes me several readings for stuff to sink in.

It's not easy to articulate either. Here's the same thing said differently. Notice that faith must be the evidence of things hoped for, and not the things dreaded. This necessarily means that that which is the Eternal must be perceived as good, trustworthy, for faith to be faith. We must therefore count Love/Empathy as good, so as to hope it is Eternal and walk in faith. Thereby we can ascertain that all the forces of darkness are trying to appraise Love/empathy as a stupid investment.

 

[Nathan]

It's not easy to articulate either. Here's the same thing said differently. Notice that faith must be the evidence of things hoped for, and not the things dreaded. This necessarily means that that which is the Eternal must be perceived as good, trustworthy, for faith to be faith. We must therefore count Love/Empathy as good, so as to hope it is Eternal and walk in faith. Thereby we can ascertain that all the forces of darkness are trying to appraise Love/empathy as a stupid investment.

You make a good point in that faith is the evidence of things hoped for, not dreaded.

People do not hope for something they do not know of. They do not hope for those things they know of, but do no know if they are true or false. For example; we have faith in God, but its not because we do not know if He exists or not - and its not because we are unsure of if He is true or not.

We know He exists, and we know He is true - therefore we can have faith in Him. We have not seen Him, but we are sure He is what He says He is.

The person who is not sure of something cannot say they have faith in it.

That is not to say we might want to have faith in something we do not know yet, that could be possible. But it is impossible to have faith in something that you do not know.

Salvation? I can have faith in Christ for my salvation because I know He is my Savior. I do not think He might, or might not be - I know for an absolute He is.

 

[childeye]

You make a good point in that faith is the evidence of things hoped for, not dreaded.

People do not hope for something they do not know of. They do not hope for those things they know of, but do no know if they are true or false. For example; we have faith in God, but its not because we do not know if He exists or not - and its not because we are unsure of if He is true or not.

We know He exists, and we know He is true - therefore we can have faith in Him. We have not seen Him, but we are sure He is what He says He is.

The person who is not sure of something cannot say they have faith in it.

That is not to say we might want to have faith in something we do not know yet, that could be possible. But it is impossible to have faith in something that you do not know.

Salvation? I can have faith in Christ for my salvation because I know He is my Savior. I do not think He might, or might not be - I know for an absolute He is.

I only know as an absolute, that it's more right to have faith than to not have faith. I am attempting to articulate that there is a difference between knowing and having faith and why all things Eternal are built upon faith rather than knowledge.

 

[Nathan]

I only know as an absolute, that it's more right to have faith than to not have faith. I am attempting to articulate that there is a difference between knowing and having faith and why all things Eternal are built upon faith rather than knowledge.

How can you have faith in something you do not know?

 

[Edward]

I only know as an absolute, that it's more right to have faith than to not have faith. I am attempting to articulate that there is a difference between knowing and having faith and why all things Eternal are built upon faith rather than knowledge.

Exactly, Brother. This is how we were hard-wired at creation as spirit beings made in the image and likeness of God Himself. Before the fall. (We'll still be triune beings after our transformation, but essentially will be leaving the flesh behind for a new spiritual body.) All created beings whether fallen or unfallen have knowledge, and God teaches us to have faith rather than knowledge. Risk and walking in it. Plugged into God, led by the Spirit. Putting our faith upon God is an absolute choice, and it is what He asks of us...because that's how it works, becoming one spirit with God, having the very mind of Christ. It comes with faith. He comes with faith.

King David out on the field with Goliath was confident. You may as well say it was like him facing Delta force, alone. Seriously outnumbered (so to speak) and what did he do? He picked up 5 stones out of the river it said...because Goliath had four brothers! He was ready for all of them. With the ost basic of prep. It was 99% faith in God, and a slingshot, lol!! That's faith and that's a choice.

I think that sometimes, God puts a Goliath in all of our lives. It's all through scripture, and not just David. We must all find that little bit of David that's in all of us.

 

[childeye]

How can you have faith in something you do not know?

Because as a temporal being, I can't prove that something's eternal, I can only believe that it is eternal.

Another example, is how do I know God is Holy? Can I test that? What would be my subjective criteria as to what constitutes Holiness? I would be risking adding to God or taking away from God in blaspheme, which then becomes vanity. God must be taken at His Word by faith.

Another example is, who is authorized to issue an official identification for God? Since He precedes all created beings, there is no higher authority than God. Therefore, only He can reveal Himself.

 

[Nathan]

Because as a temporal being, I can't prove that something's eternal, I can only believe that it is eternal.

Another example, is how do I know God is Holy? Can I test that? What would be my subjective criteria as to what constitutes Holiness? I would be risking adding to God or taking away from God in blaspheme, which then becomes vanity. God must be taken at His Word by faith.

Another example is, who is authorized to issue an official identification for God? Since He precedes all created beings, there is no higher authority than God. Therefore, only He can reveal Himself.

Does knowing something only consist of being able to prove it from a human perspective?

Do you believe someone know something apart from being able to prove it in human terms?

 

[childeye]

Does knowing something only consist of being able to prove it from a human perspective?

Do you believe someone know something apart from being able to prove it in human terms?

To know something without proof sounds like faith to me.

 

[Nathan]

To know something without proof sounds like faith to me.

Me too.

 

[childeye]

Exactly, Brother. This is how we were hard-wired at creation as spirit beings made in the image and likeness of God Himself. Before the fall. (We'll still be triune beings after our transformation, but essentially will be leaving the flesh behind for a new spiritual body.) All created beings whether fallen or unfallen have knowledge, and God teaches us to have faith rather than knowledge. Risk and walking in it. Plugged into God, led by the Spirit. Putting our faith upon God is an absolute choice, and it is what He asks of us...because that's how it works, becoming one spirit with God, having the very mind of Christ. It comes with faith. He comes with faith.

King David out on the field with Goliath was confident. You may as well say it was like him facing Delta force, alone. Seriously outnumbered (so to speak) and what did he do? He picked up 5 stones out of the river it said...because Goliath had four brothers! He was ready for all of them. With the ost basic of prep. It was 99% faith in God, and a slingshot, lol!! That's faith and that's a choice.

I think that sometimes, God puts a Goliath in all of our lives. It's all through scripture, and not just David. We must all find that little bit of David that's in all of us.

The only issue I might have is the "choice" issue. My problem with choice, is that the opportunity for unfaith must be present for a choice to be present. Such a choice would therefore be a product of the powers of darkness, even because faith preceded unfaith, and even because Truth preceded lies.

 

[childeye]

Me too.

We're obviously dealing with semantics.

 

[Nathan]

We're obviously dealing with semantics.

I'm not sure. <-------that would mean I do not "know" if we are or not.

However, when I know something, I am sure of it. Faith is "knowing" something without any/all 'human' proof.

When you think about it, anyone who wants to can debate whether someone actually knows something or not, even if you feel there is absolutely zero doubt. For instance, the most basic in your face argument we have today is that there is no God. As in, there is not a Creator.

How much "proof" do you need to "know" there is a Creator?

A person could seriously argue back and forth about anything. However, that does not negate the fact that we can know something. Just because person "a" does not accept the proof that person "b" has, does not mean that person "b" does not know what they do. It simply means that person "a" does not know what person "b" does.